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Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: FruchtYogurt on February 18, 2014, 01:48:49 PM

Title: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: FruchtYogurt on February 18, 2014, 01:48:49 PM
First of all HI, I'm new to the forum  :)

My question is about an example given in the "Official Mage Wars Rules Supplement" under "Changing the Range or Target of a Spell or Attack"

it is stated:

A spell fails and is canceled, if either of the following occur before the Resolve Spell Step:
1.
The target of the spell is no longer a legal target, or
2.
The caster or target of the spell moves (e.g. by being Pushed or Teleported away), even if the move was to a location where the spell was still in range. (In the case of a Teleport, this applies even if the teleport was into the same zone).

In the above it says the spell fails even in the case, when the teleport is into the same zone.

Now in the example it says:

A Wizard attempts to cast a creature spell, and targets the zone he is in. During the Counter Spell Step, the enemy reveals a Divine Intervention on the Wizard, teleporting him to a different zone. The zone he was targeting has changed, so the spell fails and is canceled. The Wizard will have spent (and lost!) the mana and creature card for that spell.


Now, if Divine Intervention was revealed while he was casting a creature spell and he was teleported into the same zone, he has moved according to point 2 as stated above. Thus the creature spell should fail.

But why does the example require him to be teleported into a diffrent zone? For balance reasons?


Btw: Mage Wars is an awsome game  ;)

Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: jacksmack on February 18, 2014, 02:58:12 PM
Thanks for raising this point, i too wondered when i read the example in the FAQ.

Imo the wizard example is pure non-sense.

The zone he is targetting is not changed. The wizard is now in another zone, still targetting his own original target zone.
His spell fails and is cancelled because of 2 things (1 would be enough):

1: He is no longer in range of the zone he targets (range 0-0)

and

2: The caster of the spell moves.



If i got all this wrong, then i would like an EILIF
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: silverclawgrizzly on February 18, 2014, 03:08:10 PM
First welcome to the Mage Wars Arena!

Well the ruling does say it's cancelled even if the new zone is within range. So that's my guess as to why it'd be cancelled.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Wildhorn on February 18, 2014, 03:25:43 PM
Whoa... I suddenly see devastating combo here... First round... You have initiative... Most of time people will pass the first QC phase... So quickcast teleport to NC, move 1 zone and cast Divine Intervention on opponenet mage... Now, you can really screw him bad by cancelling a spawnpoint or Adramelech or Vine Tree or anythng really important...
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: ringkichard on February 18, 2014, 03:31:53 PM
Works better as a response to an aggressive buddy-book, like 2nd turn far-center Lord of Fire. I've got a strategy article coming out on exactly this topic.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: lettucemode on February 19, 2014, 11:46:47 AM
Moving something out of the way of a ranged attack or enchantment cast with DI is fine by me, but causing your opponent to lose 24 mana and an ungodly amount of tempo (in the worst case) for very little effort strikes me as extremely powerful. What is a Druid to do if Vine Tree is cancelled like this on turn one, etc. This is a rules edge case I do not like at all.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Wildhorn on February 19, 2014, 01:29:10 PM
Moving something out of the way of a ranged attack or enchantment cast with DI is fine by me, but causing your opponent to lose 24 mana and an ungodly amount of tempo (in the worst case) for very little effort strikes me as extremely powerful. What is a Druid to do if Vine Tree is cancelled like this on turn one, etc. This is a rules edge case I do not like at all.

That is why Divine Intervention is Epic. And if you see a Holy mage rushing toward you to put an enchant on you... You better to wait and get a seeking dispell next round. Or if you face a holy mage... Prepare a seeking dispel first round...
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Aylin on February 19, 2014, 01:40:09 PM
I'm gonna have to build a Priestess book around this now...
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Shad0w on February 19, 2014, 02:17:44 PM
To do this it is turn 1 teleport 2 then move 1 and cast DI on other mage. If you have initiative for round 2 you then QC a Nullify. I did not to tell people about this until it got noticed. Took you all long enough  :P .
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Wildhorn on February 19, 2014, 02:40:00 PM
To do this it is turn 1 teleport 2 then move 1 and cast DI on other mage. If you have initiative for round 2 you then QC a Nullify. I did not to tell people about this until it got noticed. Took you all long enough  :P .

Yes but if you have initiative on round 2 it means you do not have it round one, so you wont be able to screw up someone beside an adramelech warlock.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Zuberi on February 19, 2014, 02:44:28 PM
I think he meant as the defending mage you might want to prepare a nullify round one if your holy opponent has initiative. Nullify doesn't help the holy mage protect his divine intervention as seeking dispel targets the enchant not the mage.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Wildhorn on February 19, 2014, 03:01:14 PM
I think he meant as the defending mage you might want to prepare a nullify round one if your holy opponent has initiative. Nullify doesn't help the holy mage protect his divine intervention as seeking dispel targets the enchant not the mage.

Oh. You are right.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: lettucemode on February 19, 2014, 03:17:23 PM
That is why Divine Intervention is Epic.

So is Vine Tree and so are the other spawnpoints. Adramelech and other huge creatures aren't Epic but you are only going to have one of them in a book anyway. These are cards that you build a book around, and they are Epic or Level 6 or whatever because of that power. DI is not a card you build a book around, but it can now apparently shut those books down on turn 1. So a correctly played Holy Mage can, with a single card, auto-win or gain on incredible advantage an turn 1 against some books. Does that seem fair to you?

Quote
And if you see a Holy mage rushing toward you to put an enchant on you... You better to wait and get a seeking dispell next round.

Good plan, I will just sit here and not cast Adramelech or Graveyard or whatever until next round. And I have to prepare a Seeking Dispel for the next round (if I have one) meanwhile the Priestess puts down a Temple of Asyra. So I try to cast the Seeking Dispel and oh hey, she also put a Jinx on me because she had initiative. Now it is turn 3, I have 40 mana I can't possibly spend in one turn, the DI is still on me, I have successfully cast maybe one spell total this game, and her spawnpoint is running. Nice counter-strategy!

Quote
Or if you face a holy mage... Prepare a seeking dispel first round...

But if it turns out she isn't planning to do the DI trick, now I have prepared a useless spell and lost tempo anyway. Nullify is not much better. So I may as well prepare something useful, oh wait she IS doing the trick after all. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

And what if she just saves it for another turn later in the game? Are players expected to prepare a Seeking Dispel every single round or have a Nullify up at all times to prevent this? How is this ruling defensible?
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Zuberi on February 19, 2014, 03:26:46 PM

Quote
And if you see a Holy mage rushing toward you to put an enchant on you... You better to wait and get a seeking dispell next round.

Good plan, I will just sit here and not cast Adramelech or Graveyard or whatever until next round. And I have to prepare a Seeking Dispel for the next round (if I have one) meanwhile the Priestess puts down a Temple of Asyra. So I try to cast the Seeking Dispel and oh hey, she also put a Jinx on me because she had initiative. Now it is turn 3, I have 40 mana I can't possibly spend in one turn, the DI is still on me, I have successfully cast maybe one spell total this game, and her spawnpoint is running. Nice counter-strategy

If you have initiative, you don't have to worry about this enchant. If you don't have initiative, you can seeking dispel it next round before they can put a jinx on you (since it requires both a teleport and divine intervention for them to pull off this strategy, there is no jinx). It is a loss of tempo, but it's not an unbeatable strategy.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Wildhorn on February 19, 2014, 03:28:15 PM
Dont panic.

The holy mage has to waste his whole turn, his 2 actions and 18 mana to do that. And to counter this all you have to do is wait a turn, and spend 2 mana. So it is not an autowin and it can lash back hard in the face of the holy mage.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: lettucemode on February 19, 2014, 03:35:05 PM
@Zuberi - If I have initiative, he can wait until the final quickcast phase to cast it on me, then Jinx his initial QC next round. If I don't have initiative and can kill it with a Seeking Dispel, and the holy mage decides NOT to do the DI trick, now I have prepared a useless spell for the round and lost tempo anyway. I already covered this but maybe my post was not read thoroughly.

@Wildhorn - Jinx
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Wildhorn on February 19, 2014, 03:44:38 PM
@Zuberi - If I have initiative, he can wait until the final quickcast phase to cast it on me, then Jinx his initial QC next round. If I don't have initiative and can kill it with a Seeking Dispel, and the holy mage decides NOT to do the DI trick, now I have prepared a useless spell for the round and lost tempo anyway. I already covered this but maybe my post was not read thoroughly.

@Wildhorn - Jinx

If he wait final.QC it means that you have your normal first round to cast spawnpoint/vinetree.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: lettucemode on February 19, 2014, 04:24:26 PM

If he wait final.QC it means that you have your normal first round to cast spawnpoint/vinetree.

Let me back up a bit and explain myself a bit more fully.

There are several variations on a Priestess casting DI on the enemy mage turn 1. If she has initiative or not, if she waits until the final QC phase or not, etc.  The point I am trying to make is that responding appropriately to each one requires preparing a different set of spells in rounds 1 and 2, and there is no way to determine with certainty which set to prepare ahead of time. The opponent has to guess. If he guesses correctly, great. If he doesn't though, or if initiative is such that it doesn't matter, the game may as well be over at that point.

So when I bring up a specific situation as an example, and you give me the correct counter-play to that example, you are missing the point. The point is that before the Priestess does the DI trick, before spells are prepared, before mages are revealed, before the players even sit down at the table or computer to play, the opponent of the holy mage is severely disadvantaged because of this ruling related to DI.

Some books aren't affected very much by it, but the ones that are can and will be shut down very quick. Not because of an overall book strategy or because of skilled play, but because of one card. One single card, the counter-play to which is guessing right during two Planning phases in a row and getting lucky on initiative.

And I have not even gotten started on this spell cancelling a Grizzly or Thorg in the midgame.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Shad0w on February 19, 2014, 05:43:14 PM
Depending on what you expecting as the holy mage. I go Jinx or Nullify. Sometimes I even will Tele decoy then DI
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: ringkichard on February 19, 2014, 06:15:16 PM
Man, this thread is really stealing my thunder :) Hey, Pat! Better print it while it's still relevant! :P
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: sIKE on February 19, 2014, 06:27:31 PM
I don't see an issue here. If I land the DI on round one. I have moved once then then teleported (my action) then used my QC marker to land the DI assuming I have initiative and did this all in one burst, i.e. passed during the first QC phase.  I have spent 8 of 20 mana leaving me 12. If my opponent also passed (see this most of the time with experienced players) then I know no to cast my fatty which with the lord of fire I have to wait to round 2 any ways. I know that it is more than likely a DI. I have to pull out at least 1 if not 2 Seeking Dispels. Yes this is a small loss of tempo but I am just banking mana at that point, which with a LoF opening was my plan any ways. Now I get rid of the DI, which is a blow to the Holy mage and bring out the LoF any ways or if Jinxed use the second Seeking Dispel. Since DI is DI it can even interrupt a DI and tele me some where else. But does it matter at that point? If it is a feint and you use your 1st Seeking dispel on a Decoy, then the DI is played and then I still have that second Seeking Dispel in my pocket.  I tried this once with Charmyna and lost badly, so it is really edge case and with experience (like most things in MW) can be countered with a minor loss of early tempo that swings in your favor quickly after it is taken care of.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Shad0w on February 19, 2014, 06:34:46 PM
Only if the other player is not expecting it is it a complete blowout.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: sIKE on February 19, 2014, 07:30:58 PM
Only if the other player is not expecting it is it a complete blowout.
Wall of Thorns Push Push comes to mind....fool me once....
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Shad0w on February 19, 2014, 07:49:39 PM
Only if the other player is not expecting it is it a complete blowout.
Wall of Thorns Push Push comes to mind....fool me once....

Marked for Death used to work for all attacks not just creature. Imagine that with the wall.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: sIKE on February 19, 2014, 07:58:04 PM
Only if the other player is not expecting it is it a complete blowout.
Wall of Thorns Push Push comes to mind....fool me once....

Marked for Death used to work for all attacks not just creature. Imagine that with the wall.
Kapow Batman!
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Shad0w on February 19, 2014, 08:16:57 PM
It also allowed for more than 1 bonus at a time. At that time wall was not level -1 so it was 6x3 per push.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: FruchtYogurt on February 20, 2014, 05:31:33 AM
Wow so much discussion about DI!

But back to the topic ;)

Is the wording in the example "Wizzard" for Divine Intervention in the FAQ intentional? Does the enemy mage have to be teleported to a diffrent zone?
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: jacksmack on February 20, 2014, 06:20:00 AM
It also allowed for more than 1 bonus at a time. At that time wall was not level -1 so it was 6x3 per push.

Back then the game wasnt called mage wars - it was Wall of Thorns War!
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: patrickconnor on February 20, 2014, 10:17:15 AM
If you haven't checked out the latest Mage Wars strategy article "Introducing Teleport" by ringkichard, check it out here (http://www.arcanewonders.com/arcane-wonders/introducing-teleport) .

(http://www.arcanewonders.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Teleport_300px.png)

"The Mage Wars arena is six zones wide (from corner to corner), so to attack your opponent at the start of the game you need to move five times. But crossing that distance can be a chore. Each game round you can move once with your move action, and then again with a your quick action, but crossing on foot takes time, and you didnít learn magic just so you could run everywhere. But thereís a solution!"





Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: FruchtYogurt on February 23, 2014, 03:09:41 AM
Ok then it has to be a different zone.

But then the wording in the FAQ should be adapted. As there it is stated that the spell fails if the caster moves (for example through DI this even applies if the teleport was into the same zone). Thus there is no need for the target zone to change in order to make the spell fail.

Changing the Range or Target of a Spell or Attack
A spell fails and is canceled, if either of the following occur before the Resolve Spell Step:
1.
The target of the spell is no longer a legal target, or
2.
The caster or target of the spell moves (e.g. by being Pushed or Teleported away), even if the move was to a location where the spell was still in range. (In the case of a Teleport, this applies even if the teleport was into the same zone).

Or am I reading it wrong?
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Zuberi on February 23, 2014, 01:54:50 PM
The wording in the FAQ is completely accurate on this issue and clear as crystal, it does not need to be adapted. A teleport from divine intervention will cause the spell to fail even if the mage is moved to the same zone. The example they use regarding creature summons actually fails for multiple reasons, they just choose to highlight that particular reason.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: FruchtYogurt on February 24, 2014, 05:05:59 AM
Ok thank you!
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: lettucemode on February 24, 2014, 08:43:33 AM
I have had a few days to mull this over and calm down a bit. I don't think this is as devastating as I originally said it was, however I still do not like it. No other enchantment has the ability to end a game so suddenly like this. Jinx is similar but the opponent still gets their mana and the card back for example. I don't want to have to include a Seeking Dispel in every book - I know it is a good idea to do so anyway but being forced into it is different.

So nyah :P
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: webcatcher on February 25, 2014, 12:54:24 PM
So what if you're not casting a creature spell? Could I short circuit a forcefield by DIing a Forcemaster, since both the caster and the target will have moved even though they're the same creature?
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Wildhorn on February 25, 2014, 01:01:06 PM
So what if you're not casting a creature spell? Could I short circuit a forcefield by DIing a Forcemaster, since both the caster and the target will have moved even though they're the same creature?

Yes
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: ACG on February 25, 2014, 01:34:34 PM
So what if you're not casting a creature spell? Could I short circuit a forcefield by DIing a Forcemaster, since both the caster and the target will have moved even though they're the same creature?

No. You could prevent the casting of the forcefield in the first place (though would would not know what it was), but once attached to the creature revealing it does not count as casting a spell, and hence will not be cancelled if the target moves (at least, that's how I understand it). Also, at that point it has already been cast successfully.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: DeckBuilder on February 25, 2014, 02:43:30 PM
To do this it is turn 1 teleport 2 then move 1 and cast DI on other mage. If you have initiative for round 2 you then QC a Nullify. I did not to tell people about this until it got noticed. Took you all long enough  :P .

Is it just me that finds this just too cheesy?
I think I would rage quit if someone did this and I didn't about this trick then
Just like when a friend rage quit when I revealed Mind Control in ready phase (since nerfed)
There are some maneouvres that make a mockery of all the hard work it should take to do it

Teleporting Enemy Mages should not be allowed under any circumstances

Mark my warning: this Teleport cheese is hurting the game.
Someone already wrote his local meta doesn't play Wizards.
Mine allow Wizards only with the permission of his opponent.
Now we have this which feels so wrong in theme and design.

It's not funny that this silliness is actually knowingly tolerated by AW and even encouraged to be announced.
Kich has even written a really good interesting article (with pictures) about Teleport and this on the website.
I'm baffled AW would actually want to boast about cheesy mechanics that put potential players off the game.
It's like watching a one-armed man repeatedly load the shotgun and shoot himself in the foot until it falls off.

For a game that prides itself in
* No Guaranteed Kill Spells (Drain Soul closest)
* No Hard Control Spells
there's this huge disjoint when it comes to evaluating how broken "Teleporting the enemy mage" effects are.

Imagine in Chess if you could Teleport the enemy King...

I think what got me is it's a long-known manoeuvre, so many chances to be subtly removed by amending the FAQ.
They actually worded the FAQ to ensure this is possible.

It's not clever. It's not fun. It's just silly value destruction of a great game.

Is this just me? Is anyone else as flabbergasted, exasperated and angry by this as me?
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: ACG on February 25, 2014, 03:03:57 PM
Is this just me? Is anyone else as flabbergasted, exasperated and angry by this as me?

I think what bothers me about it is that it is not terribly intuitive from the card.

I am all in favor of cool rule interactions between cards, but I did not even think of the potential for autokilling a creature until it was pointed out here. Most of the people with whom I play Mage Wars are fairly new to the game, and do not frequent these forums. They would probably be disgusted if I tried to use DI to cancel an early game play like this, because the text of the card does not make it clear that it can be used to cancel any spell. I actually searched the rulebook again to find the relevant passage (maybe somebody can point me to it?), and was unable to do so. The parameters of what significant things a card can do ought to be clear on the card; now that I know about this, the only thing I will ever use DI for (assuming I ever play a holy mage; I am not a big fan of that school) is to cancel an opponent's spell; using it for its teleport seems like a waste. But the card is written as though its primary purpose is as an escape.

I guess I would like for card rules to be written so that their most useful purpose is clear, so that my new players can pick up on the strategy more. Many of them complain that the game feels like I am "making up rules" as we go along.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: webcatcher on February 25, 2014, 03:21:53 PM
I'm certainly not as angry as you about it but I acknowledge that teleport is broken. Also, the wizard in general.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: IndyPendant on February 25, 2014, 03:49:17 PM
I seem to be in agreement with DB quite a lot.  I like to adapt his spellbooks, and I find his posts persuasive.

Here's my my main issues with this whole concept:

1) This is using Flavour Text to destroy a Game Mechanic.  This ruling could have gone either way, without affecting current gameplay in any other significant way, and a different ruling would have enhanced the fun factor.  Why can't a mage still cast a spell, if the target is still valid?  (This applies to Enchantment Transfusion as well.)  In addition, any further spells that move anything anywhere will have to keep this silly ruling in mind, limiting future options.

2) It's cheap and unfun.  If it happens, at best your own strategy is delayed critically, and at worst (key spell is simply lost) you might as well concede the game now.  Well, that was a fun one-round game, let's play something else now.  I personally would probably quit, and insist on a house rule that prevents it from being used that way again.  Brings back bad after-tastes of Magic the Gathering; if there were more options like this available in the game, I would not be playing it.  (Not a hyperbole, simply a statement of fact: I loathe I-Win Buttons in games.)

3) It's easy to set up, and all-but impossible to counter.  Once used, you can also use it to bluff; now you've delayed him because he *HAS* to deal with it or lose the game, and you've gotten much closer to him as well.  Double benefit when playing an aggro book.

4) It's counter-intuitive.  Divine Intervention, by name, wording, and intent, is clearly meant to be used defensively as an escape.  It is only through an obscure, unnecessary faq ruling that this tactic becomes useful.  Shadow, there are *reasons* it took 1.5 years for this tactic to come to light!

So.  In summary, it's an unnecessary ruling, that detracts from the fun of the game, is easy to set up, and is counter-intuitive in the first place.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: sIKE on February 25, 2014, 04:14:53 PM
I am a fan of Holy, and to me the disjoint in the game and the getting bent out of shape on this particular card is head scratching:

Divine: relating to or coming from God or a god
Intervene: to come or occur between two times or events

The ruling is very literal. Once again it is a Priest/Priestess Only Epic Card. Meaning that it can only be used once. If it is my silver bullet and it kills your silver bullet then there are no more silver bullets in this match. You have to duke it out like a real mage.

Rage Quit: Who/What unholy pair am I: Only I have a Conjuration spell that is cheap to cast and hard to kill,  can run multiple copies of it in a spellbook, is designed to have Attack Spells bound to it, can change out said attack spell during planning phase for free, when attached attack spell is cast, it is not discarded, its not zone exclusive, oh yeah, and I generate mana.

Talk about a real problem......this is it!
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: DeckBuilder on February 25, 2014, 04:21:22 PM
Thanks, folks, for making me feel better on this
I have always considered Divine Intervention to be friendly creature (intuitive) and I had to double-check.
Here is the main reason I take issue with this

Enchantment Transfusion + Divine Intervention

That's 2 free action Teleports that you have banked
It's just too powerful control
I can counter whatever major investment you cast for 11
That insurance policy is huge
You can't even kill it with Seeking Dispel as I just move it
However, as Golem Pit showed, that's the main use for it

Forget the Wizard, he's past it!

The Priestess can create a Corner Pit of 4 Bear Strength Knights (in Sacred Ground if necessary)
She's steps out, protected by her Guardian Angel, and casts a Steel Wall around it
Then Teleport to within 2, Transfuse Intervention onto the enemy mage and send him into your Pit
I don't even need to Transfuse Nullify + Jinx + Force Hold if I know he doesn't have Eagleclaw Boots
(Last time I looked, the rules were not clear on Climbing and Restrained so we play it does prevent)

Unstoppable

Wow, that's really going to help me attract new players to this game!

When will they listen about "Teleport your mage" cheese?
In many storytelling conventions, it's a standard trope for the hero to suffer a downfall because of hubris.
Refusal to see how the game could be so much better by admitting a big flaw is pride, a common hubris.
And we all know what pride comes before.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: sIKE on February 25, 2014, 04:31:13 PM
And by the time she gets through the 24 turns needed to setup this "Awesome" play from Hades what ever I have been fighting against (as I have put all of my guys in a corner) will have a Buffed Steel Claw chewing on her or after 12 turns (half of the time needed for this play) BB will move in for the kill and end the game on round 13 or 14.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: DeckBuilder on February 25, 2014, 04:34:14 PM
Just imagine a world where your mage was safe from enemy Teleports...
Where you can actually spend your resources on creating troops to put between you and your enemy.
Instead of armouring up to obscene levels in case you get teleported into a Pit.
Where you can actually send forth troops, and even join them, instead of suicide attacks on Death Pits.
Where you can play Warlord Ranged, not afraid you'll just be Teleported to the other side of your own Pikes.
Where you don't have to spend 8 spell points on 2 Teleports in every book, the first thing you write down.

What a far better game it would be if Mages were immune to opponent's Teleport effects...

I have a dream that one day, we could all live in that happy world where we play Mage Wars as a skirmish game...
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Wildhorn on February 25, 2014, 04:35:29 PM
About Transfusion + Divine Intervention, it is not 11 mana. It is 15 mana (12+3) minus ring deductions.

And about Holy Pit, it require 4x 13 mana + 15 mana +16/17 mana. So yeah, 82 mana and 7 turns (assuming you dont disturb her at all). A game last 9-10 turns in my meta so its quite close. What the other mage was doing during that time?
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: DeckBuilder on February 25, 2014, 04:43:24 PM
And by the time she gets through the 24 turns needed to setup this "Awesome" play from Hades what ever I have been fighting against (as I have put all of my guys in a corner) will have a Buffed Steel Claw chewing on her or after 12 turns (half of the time needed for this play) BB will move in for the kill and end the game on round 13 or 14.

Oh sIKE, you spend resources to attack a Pit.
I have troops too. By all means attack a Priestess in her Sacred Fort.

We have this argument every time - because you have this rabid hatred of a mechanic that works.
It's like some sort of denial mechanic snaps in you.
Because the rest of the world may concede it works but not you.

As for BB, you have Guardian Angels, you can out-attrition her just with more actions and healing over time

For this Grizzly build, you manage to magic up better troops than a Priestess in a corner with a Knights and Guardian Angels?

It costs you resources to move and attack me. What do you think I've been doing meantime?
Golem Pit triggered on Turn 8, sIKE. This may take a bit longer but by all means assault a Priestess and see what happens.

Just take a look at Tarkin's Priestess build. You only need to make a few changes and you have your win.

But most importantly

WHERE IS THE FUN IN THIS?
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: DeckBuilder on February 25, 2014, 04:51:46 PM
Quote
I can counter whatever major investment you cast for 11

About Transfusion + Divine Intervention, it is not 11 mana. It is 15 mana (12+3) minus ring deductions.

I thought it was obvious 11 was the amount of mana I need to have untapped to have that level of control
Yes, it is considerable tempo cost
But that level of control is too much

And of course the opponent should disrupt your pit preparation. But nobody defends better than Priestess.

I don't know, if people don't see the un-fun brokeness of it, then they are getting the game they deserve.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: sIKE on February 25, 2014, 04:58:01 PM
And of course the opponent should disrupt your pit preparation. But nobody defends better than Priestess.

I don't know, if people don't see the un-fun brokeness of it, then they are getting the game they deserve.
If preparation is disrupted then the issue is resolved (nothing is broken), as now we are talking theory vs. reality. If I am going to base my like or dislike of a game on a worse case scenario that is very very hard to pull off and hate because of the potential I might as well go back to playing Risk or Monopoly.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Zuberi on February 25, 2014, 05:33:02 PM
To pull off the Divine Intervention trick on round 1 costs me 18 mana. The best thing I can hope to disrupt with it on round one is a Grizzly which costs my opponent 17 mana. It seems like a fair trade to me. Maybe that screws their entire book, and maybe it doesn't. We've both lost about equal resources. Meanwhile, if I wait till round 2 to use it, I may indeed be able to come out ahead, but they should be able to seeking dispel it. In which case I have clearly come out the worse for wear. Using Divine Intervention later than the first 2 rounds means their big creatures are already out. You might get rid of a mid sized creature, but that's not going to ruin their whole strategy.

In regards to being able to teleport mages in general, I'm in favor of it. If we couldn't get the enemy out of their fortress, then wouldn't the win always go to whomever stayed in their start corner all game? That sounds extremely boring to me.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: DeckBuilder on February 25, 2014, 06:32:34 PM
In regards to being able to teleport mages in general, I'm in favor of it. If we couldn't get the enemy out of their fortress, then wouldn't the win always go to whomever stayed in their start corner all game? That sounds extremely boring to me.

I am the first to concede a good point when I see one.
And you make a good point, Zuberi.

However, think of it in Medieval Warfare terms.
Your Fortress is too strong?
I attack it with ranged attacks.
Ideally the free mana ranged troops all schools have access to.
Maybe even Zonal ranged Attacks?
Better make more balanced books then.

BB would starve you out with Obelisk.
Necromancer would twiddle its thumbs with Pestilence.

Oh, did I mention just using a Wand and Teleporting your fortified troops into mine?
I obviously pick on one that has acted that turn and bring him to me and destroy it.
That's fine by the way, part of being a Wizard is an ability to rearrange the battlefield.

But to Teleport the King into traps? It's just so brutal and route 1, no finesse, no skill.

There are many tools available beyond the route 1 "Teleport Your Mage" to break down a fort.
All this means is those tools enter the meta (when did you last see a Zone Attack being cast?)


I played a game where my opposing Wizard had to Mana Siphon himself because of my Divine Intervention.
He was fine with it because it was a fun play.
Recently, being forced to go first in Round 1, my Fire Wizard cast Drain Power in Round 2 Early QC to deny my Warlock his Adramelech then cast it myself in Round 3.
The same opponent was fine with it because it was a fun play.
The same opponent Rage Quit when I revealed Mind Control in Upkeep and killed his buffed up Grizzly to my Obelisk (that short period between the wrong ruling and the errata to cover it up).
Because it was not on the card, some off-card rule.

And that's the point here.

Cards should do what you expect them to do - and Divine Intervention does not mean "counter anything".

Enchantment Transfusion says "target" so it should target, not bypass Nullify.
Bypassing Nullify, we get double Nullify situations and make Transfusion free action guaranteed delivery.
We also make Transfusion mean "counter any spell targeting an enchantment on this creature".
Is "Counter" what "Transfusion" means? I never realised this when I last donated at the Blood Bank.

There is nothing intuitive about moving is a counter unless you move target so it's out of range.
What should happen is if I move an enchantment out of range of your Dispel, then it is countered.
Not just because I moved it from my mage to the creature I just summoned next to it or even you.

A creature spell targets the mage's current zone.
A mage is moved while summoning - why does it not simply target the new current zone?
Why MAKE UP a rule that seems grossly counter-intuitive - and knowingly keep it quiet for so long?

Enchantment Transfusion used to be "counter by moving to itself" in the prior FAQ.
But now it has its own rules and it has to be to another target, even in the same zone.
What is the intuitiveness of the first rule or even the second rule? Why does it counter?
The target is still in range and still has line of sight and line of effect (D&D 4E term). Why counter?

We can see by this change of rules in the FAQ that this is just being made up as they go.
Like an episode of Lost after the first 2 seasons.


Zuberi, I lost my argument to you about Mind Control and, soon after they realised the mistake, pride took over and we got an ugly errata instead that was first smuggled in as a "FAQ Clarification".

I lost my argument to you, Zuberi, on having a cool mechanic like secret information (Wizard Training) and to just nerf Teleport instead. After sIKE told me he had known the decision for sometime (Laddin told me I almost convinced them), I finally signed the NDA and became establishment (sort of). But that didn't really help gain much influence, no matter how much effort I put in.

So there's not much I can do - except try to highlight what a turn-off this is to a lot of people on the public forum and see if there is agreement or if I'm a lone voice. I don't think I am.


You have amazing knowledge of the rules, Zuberi.
But sometimes, you just need to rewrite the rules.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Shad0w on February 25, 2014, 07:34:27 PM
It is not a new rule if you look at the English rrules version 1& 2 it was in the resolving spells section


When a spell resolves, if you find the target of that spell is no longer valid (has moved or changed) then the spell is countered.


DI was on the list already for approved spells the core set. That passage was added to the book to explain how DI could be used defensesively. I can understand why most people never saw the larger picture.


I was going to use this  one of the books I was looking at for Origins 2013, but the main book was based off HoB aggro. To be honest HoB BF interaction was a far bigger problem. As proof it took till 2014 for this to get noticed by the masses. When I was asked to help with Origins I did not lend those books out.

Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Zuberi on February 25, 2014, 08:53:58 PM
I shall concede that there are other ways to combat a fortress, DeckBuilder. Perhaps, some people would even enjoy other methods more so. However, I still think being able to force the opponent out of their hole is an important component to the game.

Trying to convince them to come out by placing down conjurations that hurt them via attrition is still a long and boring game in my mind, where the person who comes out of their corner is still the one who loses. I build up my fortress and drop some arena wide conjurations that I believe will hurt you more than me, and you do the same. Whoever blinks first, loses.

Teleporting his creatures out one by one to slowly dismantle his fortress also sounds like a boring war of attrition to me. It also may or may not be viable, as walls can block teleport and archers could fire at your mage from that range.

Ranged warfare could be interesting. I fire off my siege engines, and you fire back with yours. That is a design approach I might could get behind.

None of these solutions really are viable for Aggro though. The meta would become dominated by defensive builds. Anyone who tried to rush their opponent would be destroyed.

You also contradict yourself a little bit by saying you understand a teleport could counter a spell by moving the caster or target out of range of the other by then later saying you should be able to choose a new target if this happens. I would be willing to agree with a ruling that said the spell is only countered if it's range is exceeded, but I would not like it if they said you could then simply pick a different target. Which means creature spells would still get countered by Divine Intervention.

Although, personally I don't see a problem with the spell or attack being countered just by the target or caster moving, even if it is still within range, because in reality it is very difficult to hit a moving target. If you go to shoot someone and they suddenly blink out of existence and reappear elsewhere, even if it is within the same room, your shot would have missed. It makes perfect thematic sense to me.

I kind of think it is funny that teleport gets so much flak, but people seem fine with Push. Both are spells that seek to control board position, and they are very similar to me. Advantages of teleport include, can move a target greater distances, has "instant" options with Divine Intervention and Teleport Trap, and allows escape from many restrained/unmovable conditions. Advantages of push include in transit movement (allowing for passage attacks from walls).

Due to the advantages of Push, I believe that teleport will always have the greater range. A push that moves it's target multiple zones would just be too powerful due to traps, even if said push couldn't move them through walls. Could you imagine pushing someone through 3 hellfire traps? I also believe that there should be some conditions that prevent teleportation but don't prevent a push, kind of like a reverse of Eagle Claw boots. If cards like that were implemented, then these two effects would be much more on par, and it would help with your complaints against teleport.

Any "instant" spells that move their target, rather it be by a push or a teleport, should be looked at long and hard for balance before they get implemented. We do need to be cautious of those. The only two currently in the game are fine in my opinion, but they do provide a very powerful effect by allowing both position control and counterspell options.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Zuberi on February 25, 2014, 09:03:05 PM
I felt like adding why the current two instant speed teleports are okay in my opinion.

Teleport Trap is a triggered effect and therefore can not be used to counter a spell or attack.
Divine Intervention is balanced both by it's restrictions (Epic + Holy mage only) and it's moderately expensive cost (12 mana unadjusted).

If such spells were more common or less restricted, I would be with you guys screaming foul. I will also closely scrutinize any future spells they come out with that behave similarly. However, in our current meta at least, these spells seem okay to me.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: DeckBuilder on February 26, 2014, 01:49:37 AM
But your argument is flawed
Because all this does is give the defender the ability to teleport you into his Fortress!

And because the defender has invested in
(a) creatures and enchantment traps while you have been spending actions advancing
(b) high damage creatures
(c) often under-costed for its attack Slow creatures
He is in a far better position than you to kill you.

Teleport does not cure this. It makes it worse for the attacker!
Defender has had more actions to set up the Transfusion trap so that you can't win "Teleport Wars"!

Teleport Wars is just silly.
You Teleport me out. I Teleport back in.
You Teleport me out. I Teleport back in.
You Teleport me out. I Teleport back in
You Teleport me out. I Teleport back in.
You have run out of Teleports. Luckily I have been using a Wand of Teleport.
I Teleport you into my Pit. GG

WHAT A SILLY GAME THAT IS!

The reality is this, Zuberi: Teleporting Mages has done incredible damage to the game.
I know some experienced playtesters who are also with me here, perhaps not as brazenly rebellious.

I am probably going to lose my Playtester privilege by confessing this.
However, unless we are testing something (like a playest or BB), we mostly play to a House Rule here.
It is based on the Stunned exception to Mages.

"A Mage has so much control over his physical body that he can choose to be Stunned instead of being Teleported.
This decision is made after knowing his Teleport destination."


Teleport therefore still remains a threat with a heavy price. But it's not lethal.
Why do you think I come up with silly creative ideas like Hoover Jelly (4 Jellies + Wand of Force Wave)?
Because we've opted to fix the game to make it more fun and balanced for all mages (still not true sadly).

This was after my main opponent rage quit, refusing to play the game unless I fixed it with a House Rule.
I want to play the game so I fixed it.
And it's a much better game with this rule added.
I urge the forum to try it this way because the books and strategies become so much more interesting.
Because you don't need to spend minimum 8 spell points on 2+ defensive Teleports.
You can actually spend it on refining your book's strategy and those extra points are huge extra diversity.
Why do you think I don't post many builds these days? Because we play to a far better game here.

Before people start deriding a House Rule, I was derided by some (e.g. jacksmack) in my "House Rules" thread.
And what happened? On many points, Mage Wars either clarified it or changed the rules to legitimise our House Rules.

Let's never forget the tripod of good strategic game design:
1. FUN - a game should be fun to play, or otherwise rewarding (fun is a subjective word)
2. INTUITIVE - a game should be intuitive, not a rules referencing chore which is not fun
3. BALANCED - a game should have counters to every strategy so no strategy is dominant

I contend Teleport undermines the "Fun" and "Balanced" tripod legs - a good game can't stand on one leg.
And using Divine Intervention like this here even undermines the "Intuitive" leg too!

I urge the forum to just try the game with this House Rule.
Free yourself from the Tyranny of Teleport!
Cast forth your shackles and give this great game the freedom it deserves to flourish to its full glory!

(Ok, I'm getting a bit carried away, Agitator was always my favourite career in Warhammer Fantasy RPG).
Seriously though, the game is much better with this House Rule.


Zuberi, as a rules expert, I can't blame you developing the mindset of treating rules as some sort of Bible.
Well, most Christians don't take the self-contradicting Bible literally - and a good thing too, in my opinion.

I weep at the damage that the wrong decision on Mind Control, championed by you, did to the Forcemaster.
I know you are arguing contrary with good intentions - but we know which road is paved by good intentions.


Surely this deliberate Divine Intervention nonsense is the final straw for many players?
It has got to stop. The game is so handicapped by this mule-headed refusal to fix a design flaw.

It's still a great game. But it could be so much better.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: silverclawgrizzly on February 26, 2014, 02:35:28 AM
Ok maybe it's time to take a deep breath here. We're not going to get anywhere with long arguments. Teleport is awesome but it's maybe not the end all auto win. How is that for a compromise? I think we all understand the points both sides of that argument can make but not all of us agree on all points. One thing I would like to point out(and I know I'm going to get decapitated for this) is many players have learned to recognize what their opponent is setting up(like oh say casting Iron Golems and bringing out a Mage Wand....) and are learning how to counter those moves. The game is fluid and dynamic, which is why I love it.

Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Zuberi on February 26, 2014, 02:41:59 AM
Due to the way Teleport's targeting system is setup, I would be able to teleport you further than you could teleport yourself. I then would have several options to restrict your movement or block your line of sight to prevent you from getting back to your fortress, using my quick cast before you have had a chance to act. You shouldn't simply engage in a teleport war. That is quite unwise. Especially if they have a teleport wand (which must be dissolved).

*Note that in the absence of teleport, this counter fortress measure can be achieved with a push as well.

I wonder, do you also have a house rule where Push effects don't affect mages? I still maintain that these two effects are more similar than people realize. The disparity between them is caused by the current card pool rather than the effects themselves. Primarily, there needs to be cards that counteract teleport, similar to the many cards that counteract push. Once that occurs, I believe many of these complaints about teleport being over powered will subside.

Other than that, there's the fact that there are no "instant" push effects like Divine Intervention. There's nothing inherent to the teleport effect that allows Divine Intervention to counter actions, it's the instant speed of it that makes it so powerful. A similar push effect is equally possible. I will agree with you that such effects are quite powerful. New ones are not needed, and indeed should be approached with extreme caution. I think Divine Intervention is balanced because of it's restrictions and mana cost, but others may disagree with me on that. If it was more expensive, I do think it would still be useful.

Besides those differences in the card pool, the only other differences are that teleports are capable of a greater range while pushes are able to move you through things. Because of the nature of the two effects, I believe these difference are intrinsic and irreconcilable. But I also believe they are on par with each other. I would not consider either to be more powerful than the other.

Thus, unless you believe that both Push and Teleport need to be house ruled, I conclude it is the card pool that needs to be altered, not the rules.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: DeckBuilder on February 26, 2014, 03:44:01 AM
Ok maybe it's time to take a deep breath here. We're not going to get anywhere with long arguments. Teleport is awesome but it's maybe not the end all auto win. How is that for a compromise? I think we all understand the points both sides of that argument can make but not all of us agree on all points. One thing I would like to point out(and I know I'm going to get decapitated for this) is many players have learned to recognize what their opponent is setting up(like oh say casting Iron Golems and bringing out a Mage Wand....) and are learning how to counter those moves. The game is fluid and dynamic, which is why I love it.

Decapitated? Am I that scary, Silverclaw? I wouldn't decapitate you. Who would I have to chew the fat with when the rest of the US are asleep?

I realise that  the game is fluid, books adapt and the designers bring new mechanics to solve issues (e.g. Corrode).

However what Teleport Mage does is stifle innovation by imposing a spell point tax on every book.
It destroys certain strategies like Ranged Fortress, one of the cornerstones of the Warlord options.
Most importantly, it really puts off new players who just look at the manoeuvre and think "cheese!".

You would be amazed how incredibly liberating it is playing without the tyranny of this Teleport paranoia.
The game actually becomes tactical, manoeuvering of forces in different zones to destroy zone exclusive assets.
Instead of always ending up in one big brawl in a zone that can't take more than 6 cards (let alone walls).

Ranged units are skillful becauise it requires positioning and protection with melee units, ideally with Defense.
The closest we get is Gorgon Archer with Eagle Wings and you've spent all your Dispels on my Essence Drains.

Teleport is actually incredibly lazy. The hard way is to play tactically better than your opponent.

I have been quiet on my anti-Teleport crusade and failed to convince on a new spell available to all to help curb it.
What has triggered me back to being a drooling wreck is this latest incarnation.
Divine Intervention + Enchantment Transfusion is just plain too strong and anti-intuitive

[Zuberi, I will respond with my counter arguments but I'm a bit busy at work here in the UK]
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: lettucemode on February 26, 2014, 10:04:23 AM
I am with you all the way on this, DB (and Indy). I think we are getting off-topic with generalizing this discussion to the concept of Teleport however, let's bring it back to DI cancelling stuff.

1) sIKE mentioned that this is a case of one "silver bullet" cancelling out another. However not all silver bullets are equal. I would gladly trade my DI for an opponent's Adramelech or Grizzly or Angel. And if facing a Warlock-Adra book and you successfully cancel it on turn 2, what is the opponent to do? He probably also has a NV and DPS in his book too, okay, but now those aren't hitting the table until round 5, game over.

2) Zuberi mentioned that if a Grizzly is canceled on turn 1 that the amount of resources spent is equal. That is just that one case though. If you get Adra it's definitely not equal. I would argue that if you get Vine Tree or some other Spawnpoint it is also not equal, because if the opponent is casting those things on round 1 or 2 it is a central piece of their strategy and they probably built their book around it. Meanwhile DI is a card you include just because.

3) And what if DI is used in the midgame instead of spending 18 mana on turn 1? I am not speaking from the perspective of Pits here. I mean cancelling an angel or bear or Thorg or Sir Corazin or Togorah or whatever in the midgame. That's a very large tempo swing. You can even combo into this with a ET + DI on yourself! That is 2 actions banked but if you get a huge card it's definitely worth it.

4) Shadow brought up this ruling "When a spell resolves, if you find the target of that spell is no longer valid (has moved or changed) then the spell is countered", saying that this has already been in the rules. However the new FAQ says this:

A spell fails and is canceled, if either of the following occur before the Resolve Spell Step:
1. The target of the spell is no longer a legal target, or
2. The caster or target of the spell moves (e.g. by being Pushed or Teleported away), even if the move was
to a location where the spell was still in range. (In the case of a Teleport, this applies even if the teleport
was into the same zone).

This"caster" portion of that rule was definitely NOT covered in the original rules, neither is the "same zone" thing, neither is the "even if still in range" thing (arguable). So yes, this is new.

5) I don't see how someone teleporting out of the path of an arrow to avoid it (logical) is equivalent to a spell targeting a zone failing because you were teleported to the same zone. The target has not changed and is not out of range, the caster has not moved in any significant way.

6) If a player knows about the DI trick and the opposing Holy Mage casts an enchantment on them, they must now waste a full round (half this round because they didn't pocket Seeking Dispel, half next to cast it) to get rid of it before they can use their key card. With a Jinx you can extend this to a round and a half IF they anticipated the Jinx and prepared two seeking dispels, 2 rounds if not (because they prepared the big card to cast also, but now they are afraid to cast it cause it'll just get cancelled, so they have to wait again). If I was in this situation as the Holy Mage I would first bluff it with a Decoy and extend it up to 2.5 rounds. 2.5 rounds of standing around preparing Seeking Dispels just so you can proceed with your book's actual strategy. That is not fun.

7) Speaking of fun, I haven't seen any responses to DB's arguments about fun or intuitiveness, both of which this mechanic is not. I throw my weight behind those arguments.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Zuberi on February 26, 2014, 10:38:16 AM
1 & 2) If the holy mage does not reveal it during round one, you should have the opportunity to seeking dispel it. A holy mage casting an enchantment on you that early should send off huge warning bells. And if you dispel it, they have lost considerably more resources than you have. The holy mage is taking a big gamble on hoping you misplay.

3) I will still be spending 12 mana and an epic spell on the tactic. It is more likely to succeed and cheaper for me, but it is less likely to be as devastating. After the first 2 rounds, very few big baddies are summoned. The best I can really hope for is a medium sized creature which doesn't cost much more than the 12 mana I have invested. I have thus spent a quick action and an epic spell to cost you a full action and a piddly amount of mana. Still a net gain for me, but hardly game breaking.

4) No argument

5) You make a very good point. A creature avoiding a spell or attack by teleporting within the same zone makes sense to me because there is a lot of room in the zone (enough for many many creatures) so I have no problems believing they have still moved out of the way. However, if you are in fact targeting the entire zone, moving within that zone shouldn't really have a big impact. This could be rationalized by tying the spell cast to a small region of the zone, but actually I agree with you that it is unintuitive overall. This wouldn't change the fact that DI can move you to any other zone for no extra cost and it would be intuitive for it to have countered the creature summon. So it does really effect the power of the spell much.

6) If the holy mage has initiative on round one and rushes you to put DI on you, then you will have initiative on round 2 and can seeking dispel it without fear of a Jinx. I think this already rare tactic would be even more rare if the holy mage does not have initiative on round 1, but assuming they did use it without initiative, then going into round 2 they could indeed put a Jinx on you before you could remove the DI. In this situation, you were allowed to cast whatever you wished during round 1, and should again have warning bells about the DI going into round 2. You could try as you suggested to get rid of the DI, which will probably delay Adramelech till round 3 at the very least due to Jinx, or you could immediately switch to plan B and summon the Dark Pact Slayer. If he uses DI to cancel the Dark Pact Slayer, I'd say you've come out ahead. If he does not, you've gotten feet on the ground and bought an extra round to deal with the DI and the Jinx. Use your final Quick Cast during round 2 to cast a buff on your slayer or yourself and see if Jinx is triggered. Then Round 3 when you have initiative you can seeking dispel the DI.

7) I do think the spell is fun. I don't know how many agree with me on that. I will concede that you made a good point about an unintuitive situation with the rules, but there are plenty of intuitive uses of it that would accomplish the same ends.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: lettucemode on February 26, 2014, 11:44:46 AM
In response to your response to 1, 2, and 6:

So there are a couple different situations here with regards to who has initiative and whether the Holy Mage lead off with the DI straightaway.

He cast the DI round one, your initiative round 2: easy Seeking Dispel. However the Holy Mage knows about this situation and will probably avoid it, read on...
He cast DI round one, his initiative round 2: he covers it with Jinx, you probably prepared your key card and one SD, have fun preparing SDs the next few turns.
He bluffs the DI with a Decoy on round one, you have initiative round 2: You SD it, he laughs and casts DI on you. Now you're back to preparing more SDs.
He bluffs and has initiative round 2: the optimal situation. He could wait for you to SD the bluff card before Jinxing, or just cast DI straightaway, now you have to guess which card is the DI. Or are neither the DI? He's going to put on some equipment or put down a Temple this turn. What do you do?

Do you see what I am saying about how bluffing with a Decoy changes things? And what if the Holy Mage anticipates this whole guessing game and cast the DI first round just to trip you up?

This isn't Mage Wars anymore. This is a mix-up chain in a fighting game. Do I block low or high? Is he going to throw or block? DI or Decoy? You don't know, and you can't possibly know until after the play is made.

I don't think that situation is good for the game.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: sIKE on February 26, 2014, 12:05:45 PM
He has to move 2 spaces the first round, so regardless of initiative the only thing he can cast is the DI. Now if he has init he can play Jinx/Nullify but you can just save your QC till your first activation and then double Seeking Dispel, this silly play is over....back to regular play.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: lettucemode on February 26, 2014, 12:15:08 PM
He has to move 2 spaces the first round, so regardless of initiative the only thing he can cast is the DI. Now if he has init he can play Jinx/Nullify but you can just save your QC till your first activation and then double Seeking Dispel, this silly play is over....back to regular play.

And what if he never cast the DI at all and it was a Decoy instead? Now you have prepared two Seeking Dispels and he summons Samandriel.

I am not arguing about how to beat the trick, I know it can be beaten. I am arguing that the existence of the trick is unfair to the opponent of the Holy Mage, whether or not it is actually used. It creates a situation which damages the game.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Shad0w on February 26, 2014, 12:42:48 PM
4) Shadow brought up this ruling "When a spell resolves, if you find the target of that spell is no longer valid (has moved or changed) then the spell is countered", saying that this has already been in the rules. However the new FAQ says this:

A spell fails and is canceled, if either of the following occur before the Resolve Spell Step:
1. The target of the spell is no longer a legal target, or
2. The caster or target of the spell moves (e.g. by being Pushed or Teleported away), even if the move was
to a location where the spell was still in range. (In the case of a Teleport, this applies even if the teleport
was into the same zone).

This was in debate for a long time with the rules team. I will not say how the votes fell but some people voted for zone must be different others voted for the same zone. Both were talked about in great detail. In the end you know what the result of the final votes was. I can not get into detail but what I can say is this was talked about for several months.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: silverclawgrizzly on February 26, 2014, 01:32:18 PM
*wakes  up after a good days sleep*

Man...yo guys are passionate about this one. I need more thin mints before I get back into this. I can't find some of my Teleport cards so I'm currently rocking 1 for like 4 different books to share. Still winning some though :)
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Zuberi on February 26, 2014, 02:25:11 PM
You are correct, the possibility of a bluff does change things up. Personally, I like that bluffing is a part of this game and think that it makes it more entertaining, not less.

For the Druid, I would recommend casting your tree during the Quick Cast phase of round one anytime you face a holy mage. Prevent this issue from ever occuring. Otherwise, you will have a more difficult time from this than anybody else, unless you happen to carry multiple trees in your spellbook. In which case, you'd actually come out ahead if a Holy Mage did this to counter your first tree. You don't treebond until the thing actually enters play, so you can simply bond with the second tree. You've lost 9 mana (assuming Vine Tree) and a quick action, while your opponent has lost 18 mana and an entire round.

For anybody else, the primary concern is that DI will cancel a big bad creature. There are a couple of ways you can handle this. You could try to remove any enchantments he puts on you, but chances are he can apply more than you can remove and he might never actually apply the DI. Or you could simply play around the threat. As long as you don't cast anything that costs 18 or more mana, a DI shouldn't be that big of a swing in the game. This might force you to go with your Plan B rather than your primary strategy, but every book should include a Plan B anyways if you ask me. Summon some smaller creatures or strap on some equipment and go to town, just don't give him too tempting a target to use DI on.

This might seem like a big penalty to you, playing with an ever present threat over your head....but it shouldn't really be that limiting. How many cards do you include that are actually that expensive? Plus, your opponent has put himself at an 8 mana and action deficit to create this looming threat, giving you an advantage if he never actually makes good on it.

Granted, in addition to the option of countering a really expensive spell, he could use the DI to counter something cheaper AND gain a significant positional advantage to possibly make the investment worth it for him. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to setup such an advantage PLUS time it with you casting something worthwhile, but my gut says fairly difficult.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Wildhorn on February 26, 2014, 02:51:47 PM
Cancelling a big bad with DI is not worst than with Mind Control + Essence Drain.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: lettucemode on February 27, 2014, 10:23:37 AM
You are correct, the possibility of a bluff does change things up. Personally, I like that bluffing is a part of this game and think that it makes it more entertaining, not less.

I never said otherwise, I also enjoy the bluffing aspect of enchantments. It just creates a bad situation in this one extreme case.

Quote
For the Druid

I mentioned before that I am not looking for advice on how to beat the trick. The existence of the trick is the issue, not that I can't see a way around it. The Druid is actually one of the least affected by this trick because she can cast the tree during the first QC phase, then have the tree cast everything else important. I just used it as an example of how not all silver bullets are equal.

Quote
Or you could simply play around the threat.

So here we come to the crux of the issue - I assert that this trick cannot be played around effectively. Anything you do to play around it only cripples you further and further. You say that a player should switch to plan B. This seems like a natural solution because there's a plan B against say, Mordok's Obelisk - summon 1 big creature instead of several smaller ones. Well, there is no plan B against DI because DI works against plan B too. If you summon medium creatures the Priestess can bring out Knights of Westlock, and she'll have one more than you will because she can cancel one of your creatures. She can match or beat you on equipment because you won't be able to get the Battle Forge down.

This effect is exacerbated by the fact that DI can be bluffed. Obelisk can't be bluffed, a Grizzly can't be bluffed. But when a player prepares two Seeking Dispels to get rid of a DI that isn't even there while the Priestess summons an Angel, the power of this trick is apparent. Bluffing any other enchantment (like a Nullify or Block or something) does not have this level of effect on the other player's mind. The Priestess never has to use the trick. She doesn't even have to include DI in her spellbook. As soon as she casts an enchantment (whether round 1 or later) on the enemy mage, the guessing game begins.

Quote
This might seem like a big penalty to you, playing with an ever present threat over your head....but it shouldn't really be that limiting. How many cards do you include that are actually that expensive? Plus, your opponent has put himself at an 8 mana and action deficit to create this looming threat, giving you an advantage if he never actually makes good on it.

The action disadvantage evens out as soon as a creature spell is cancelled. Quick for Full.

Quote
Granted, in addition to the option of countering a really expensive spell, he could use the DI to counter something cheaper AND gain a significant positional advantage to possibly make the investment worth it for him. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to setup such an advantage PLUS time it with you casting something worthwhile, but my gut says fairly difficult.

Anytime the other mage casts a creature spell, cancel it and move him near your other creatures, then attack him with them. That is not difficult at all.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: DeckBuilder on February 27, 2014, 03:24:49 PM
[Zuberi, I will respond with my counter arguments but I'm a bit busy at work here in the UK]

Ok, Zuberi, I've finally got time to answer you. I haven't forgotten.
Apologies for the delay but I was preoccupied on more interesting threads than proving something I already know.
Meantime, Lettucemode has been doing an excellent job highlighting the holes in your argument (bravo!)

Me, and no doubt many others, including Arcane Wonders, respect you immensely as an expert on the rules.
However I believe there have been cases where you blind adherence to the rules may be damaging to the game.
I gave up too easily on Mind Control, where you played your "This is the Law!" Tablets of Stone rules expert card.
Arcane Wonders ruled with you, partly no doubt because you are the safe pair of hands and I'm the loose cannon.
Unfortunately the Forcemaster suffered with the errata that followed once they realised your way was too strong.

I get the (unfair?) impression it's all about the rules, not the bigger picture like fun or intuitivemess or even balance.
One moments the rules state X and you are a staunch advocate of X.
Next minute they change the rules to Y and you are a staunch advocate of Y.
The fact they changed rule X to Y (like "watering burning plants") doesn't make you question why you supported X.
It's a good thing you weren't active during my House Rules thread as you would have pilloried me for not respecting rules.
Well, here's a thing about me, both in games and in other areas of life: respect has to be earned.

Frankly, using Divine Intervention like this only earns from me the greatest contempt that they knowingly allowed it.

This adherence to rules "because they are the rules" is an admirable trait (maybe you are a soldier or a policeman?).
It is the polar opposite to me as I am always questioning, always critiquing, seeking to improve and not to stagnate.
From recent frustrations I've faced, I think your conservative approach is far more at home as a Playtester than me.

However this time, I am not going to give up so easily.

Due to the way Teleport's targeting system is setup, I would be able to teleport you further than you could teleport yourself. I then would have several options to restrict your movement or block your line of sight to prevent you from getting back to your fortress, using my quick cast before you have had a chance to act. You shouldn't simply engage in a teleport war. That is quite unwise. Especially if they have a teleport wand (which must be dissolved).

So let's wheel out the old cliche that Teleport is there to defend against a turtling Mage/Priestess in her corner.

Firstly, let's talk about Teleport before I come to the irrefutably broken card that is Divine Intervention.

Any Wizard doing this Turtling trick will have Nullify protection.
More than that, he will have plenty of time to set up 3rd party Nullify + Enchantment Transfusion protection.
Because you have been spending Mage actions moving while he has been doing stuff in a super-efficient way.
You cannot hope to Teleport him out or Dissolve his Teleport Wand range 1 (they created Orchid to bypass).

In fact he has so much control, the moment you're within range 2 to Teleport him, you'll be sucked in instead.
Where the Enchantment Transfusion trap is sprung. I said it back then that given time, there's inevitability about it.
Again, they created Cloak of Shadows to prevent this happening too easy (but it's also Dark Mage Only tech).
Necromancer can wait him out with Pestilence + Deathlock in opposite corner; they have mage-specific answers.
Even worse, as mentioned in "How to Beat the Wiz?", the Necromancer could build Altar of Skulls and out-turtle.

So between vine range Orchid to destroy Teleport Wands and Necromancer tech, they have reacted to Mage Pit.
But these are specific tools for specific mages - what about the rest?
It's a very horses-for-courses approach instead of just changing the rules or introducing Novice cards for all etc.

Your theory that you can just out-Teleport a Mage and extract him out does not hold water in practice.
So while I agree this would be a good reason to keep Teleport and endure the pain, it just fails in that task
No benefit but we retain Teleport Checkmate, this brutal technique lacking finesse, detrimental to the game.
It does not make sense allowing Enemy Mages to be Teleported under our current card pool (or with FIF).

Teleport was a brutal way to solve the Turtle Problem that has actually backfired and caused more problems.

The designers should have approached it by granting greater benefit for controlling more zones with zone exclusives.
By making sure ranged tech like Akiro's Hammer (why Golem Pit has a Fog Wall) is available to breakdown a Fortress.
By creating more "smoke them out" cards like Pestilence (how about damage from adjacent Passage Blocked Walls?).

There are more creative ways to solve the Turtle Problem than Teleport which is the most sledgehammer method.
Which has backfired badly, a standard shortcut for totally ignoring tactics, destroying players who want to wargame.

Now for the subject of this thread, Divine Intervention (and its interaction with Enchantment Transfusion).
Transfusions give my Divine Intervention the freedom to always survive, no need to guess, even vs. Destroy Magic.

So there you are, after triggering Nullify, casting a 12 cost Teleport to move me 4 zones from my Sacred Fortress.
Except I trigger Transfusion, move Divine Intervention to you to drag you into my Knight Pit instead then wall you in.
Your 12 cost teleport is countered and because you went within range 2 to cast Teleport, you are now in my Holy Pit.

Divine Intervention + Enchantment Transfusion (which bypasses Nullify) means there is no way you can extract me!

So yet again the initially sensible reason you give for retaining Teleporting Enemy Mages has been debunked!
Teleporting Enemy Mages with the current card pool is causing untold damage to the game.

Zuberi, I suspect you are an Arcane Wonders plant, not just because of your sudden appearance, knowing the rules so well.
But also always blindly supporting the rules, backing them at every opportunity, a super loyalist on BGG and Facebook too.
If you're not a plant, this Judge Dredd following laws and not common sense is probably done with the best possible intentions.

But sometimes it's important to step outside the comfort zone, to consider heresies like (whisper it) "changing the rules"...
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: sIKE on February 27, 2014, 03:47:12 PM
@Deckbuilder

I have had so many conversations with you about this and your Teleport Pit Trap argument that I think we sound like broken records playing in the same room. The argument that the spell Teleport is broken, is cheesy, and sucky, and horribly breaks the game is only true once again if you have 7-10 turns to setup this trap. Fool me once shame on me. If I play you twice and see you setting up the same maneuver during the second game, I am going to go in for the kill real quick and this technique will die in my local meta. Yes in theory it is still there, so is the killer ToL once I get 3 or 4 temples out it costs a bit on mana now, but still has the same extra action effect of the original. With that said, it is no longer played this way because of the overhead needed to get it is setup now. Same with the Pit there are a lot of actions and mana needed to get that puppy working.

As for DI, there are numerous way to counter this play, once again fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

Reverse Magic, Seeking Dispel, Nullify, Steel Enchantment. If you are able to setup the perfect set of circumstances to pull off the Pit you deserve to win, but if I am your opponent and don't see this coming and react to it and disrupt it, I deserve to loose.

Teleport is annoying and when played properly can take or swish tempo around, but it isn't the end all, be all of Mage Wars. That is reserved for the Wizard's Tower.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: lettucemode on February 27, 2014, 03:49:17 PM
Zuberi, I suspect you are an Arcane Wonders plant, not just because of your sudden appearance, knowing the rules so well.
But also always blindly supporting the rules, backing them at every opportunity, a super loyalist on BGG and Facebook too.
If you are not a plant, ithis Judge Dredd application of laws not common sense is probably done with the best possible intentions.

ROFL

Oh man, I just snorted out loud at work and got some funny looks. DB bringin' out the accusations ;)
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: DeckBuilder on February 27, 2014, 03:54:25 PM
As for DI, there are numerous way to counter this play, once again fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

Divine Intervention + Enchantment Transfusion

I have instant speed Counter Your Spell + drag you into my Holy Pit

Huginn could try to break it I guess - but you have to play a Wizard for that and there's way around that too.
The only other way to break that I can see is to play a Holy Mage and do the same back to me.
And then we get into timing issues.

Please sIKE, enlighten me how to break this?
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: sIKE on February 27, 2014, 04:14:07 PM
Warlock - Lets see round 3 I move in with my Lord of Fire and shoot you with a Fireball

Druid - see your wall less pit location spread vines to it, drop in a vine snapper or 4

Wizard - BB ya

BM - Swarm ya

Necro - Bring out a couple of Ghouls and have them start hitting on your mage build a wall across the zone top to bottom, grow me a zombie army, and drop pestilence

Pit is a lot of work to build and you can't play control, you cant play agro, no board control, you cant do anything but work on your trap else your casting spells doing something different.

Your argument assumes you have the chance to Nullify+DI+ET plus save enough mana for the 10 needed for the DI + at least 14 for the Walls, 4 knights are 13*4 mana.

I am just supposed to put on Rose Colored glasses on and stick may head into the ground, then place my fingers in my ears and go lalalallalala the entire time you do all this prep work, then walk blindly to you and die?

Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: DeckBuilder on February 27, 2014, 04:31:50 PM
And Priestess doesn't have creatures like Guardian Angel against ranged? Knight Guards?
Do I need to tell you how resilient a Priestess is?

Why can't you accept that both countering your spell and moving you wherever I like where you have no defence is huge?

I know you have a rabid hatred of Turtle Pit.
And I don't want it to work either.
But put your hatred aside and think about the issue in hand.

Is there nothing super cheesy about DI + ET in your eyes?
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: sIKE on February 27, 2014, 04:43:04 PM
I have never said I hated it, just that I don't think that it is a real factor in normal game play, because once your start doing:
Quote
Creatures like Guardian Angel against ranged? Knight Guards?
You are no longer working on building out your pit, but responding to pressure applied to you by the other player. That pressure will not ease and you will have to continue to respond to it, not leaving you much to time to build the 4 KoW and all of the other accouterment needed to "win".

Is it cheesy that it exists, ok its cheese, but is it a serious as a casual or tournament style of play that will win consistently and as a result declared broken and we therefore need to nerf both DI and Teleport. IMHO not a chance.

Once again I wish the passion you have on this was targeted at the real threat to the game, the Wizard's Tower of course.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: DeckBuilder on February 27, 2014, 05:17:17 PM
Ok, I answered that last post on my phone so short.

Recruiting 4 Knights (and a Guardian Angel if needed) is part of the plan! How else can I make the Pit deadly unless I have them?

You attack with Lord of Fire? I have 2 Knights guarding at the same cost, even against his Sweeping hitting him back for 10 dice (later boosted with Bear strength). Then come the Archers. As for Fireball, by all means destroy your threat build up with early attacks! You are playing into the Priestess hands. How will I get rid of all those burns and heal?

I think Ghouls are the pits. Absolutely no synergy. Overpriced pap, over-action intensive situational rubbish.
We had this argument at previews when you loved the Ghouls and I loved the Brutes, we hated the other.
2 Ghouls cost the same as the 2 Knights guarding me while your Ghouls "beat on my mage"? Who will win?
As for Pestilence, isn't that what Unicorns were created for?
Now if you mentioned Deathlock, that could cause problems. But not Ghouls and Pestilence.

BB? yes, you will have to play a different game. But take tarkin's Priestess build. It's just as heavily armoured and again the Priestess has all the tools to beat BB. but now she can Counter + Teleport you anywhere at instant speed. It's too much.

You want to attack my 4 Knight Guards with 4 Vine Snappers?? Fine. I let you. Then I walk over to the other corner. Remember I can heal pretty easily too with a Unicorn or just Healing Charms.

Beastmaster Swarm. 6 dice Falcons (4 Fury -1 Aegis) shouldn't kill Knight guards even if they fail Defence but the Counterstrike certainly should. Guardians and Archers help as well. However i agree that the rarely Beastmaster Swarm does cause problems because of creature overlap but coming in too early spells doom for the Swarm.

We can play this theory-crafting Rock Paper Scissors all day.

The point is not necessarily about a Holy Pit (it could be just be a modified Priestess build like tarkin's).
The point is

Using Divine Intervention plus Enchantment Transfusion to counter your spell and move you anywhere is too much.

It's only Epic? You only need one chance to set your trap.

I hate visiting this thread because it just gets me so angry that something so obviously SILLY is tolerated.

So apologies if I just log off from this infuriating thread.

Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: sIKE on February 27, 2014, 05:36:08 PM
So while you are standing still (literally) bringing out the 4 Knights (8 turns), I start throwing Jinx's on you and your guards now no longer exist, my Demon/Ghoul/Swarm chews you to pieces. Once again you describe a vacuum and you make it sound like you can pull a KoW out each round, but we know that is not true. At some point you will have to change strategy to survive and abandon the Pit and go a different direction especially after I Teleport you away from your one KoW that you might have out if your lucky.

My Ravenous Ghoul gets to you in 2 rounds, your Zombie Brute takes 4 times as long, he is a hitter but positioning all four them (if you manage to get them out) to be effective is nigh impossible other than a Zombie Frenzy, which, after playing the Necro a half dozen time so far, is not that easy to pull off, as the demands placed on him typically exceed his channeling capabilities.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: tarkin84 on February 27, 2014, 06:14:56 PM
So while you are standing still (literally) bringing out the 4 Knights (8 turns), I start throwing Jinx's on you and your guards now no longer exist.

Sorry, sIKE, I didn't understand your statement. What has Jinx to do with guarding? Maybe I missed something quite obvious, but it's a little late here in Spain and I should definitely go to take some sleep :D
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: sIKE on February 27, 2014, 06:40:04 PM
So while you are standing still (literally) bringing out the 4 Knights (8 turns), I start throwing Jinx's on you and your guards now no longer exist.

Sorry, sIKE, I didn't understand your statement. What has Jinx to do with guarding? Maybe I missed something quite obvious, but it's a little late here in Spain and I should definitely go to take some sleep :D

Sorry to be obtuse, he countered with well I will pull out 4 KoW (as that is my plan any ways), so I countered his counter with Jinx. Since he is Full Castinga and to make the pit come tighter he has to keep his KoW's in the same location (don't even get me started with Zone Attacks) therefore, he can not move to avoid me and since my plan is to lay the hurt on him while he is planning his pit trap he falls into my trap. Now, if he wishes to counter what I am doing (laying the hurt on him) he either has to move or cast something other than a KoW. This is the disruption I am referring too.....delaying his four KoW pit is my goal here by making him do something other than have the time Full Cast is my plan to take tempo and ruin his Pit Trap plan.

Tarkin, have you fallen victim to a Golem Pit or KoW pit as proposed here?
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Zuberi on February 27, 2014, 06:45:12 PM
Quote from: lettucemode
So here we come to the crux of the issue - I assert that this trick cannot be played around effectively.

Quote from: lettucemode
Well, there is no plan B against DI because DI works against plan B too. If you summon medium creatures the Priestess can bring out Knights of Westlock, and she'll have one more than you will because she can cancel one of your creatures. She can match or beat you on equipment because you won't be able to get the Battle Forge down.

We actually are talking about two different topics that need to be addressed. First, there's the threat of Divine Intervention. Your opponent has paid a premium to put this threat on your head, 8 mana and their entire first round. I'm not quite saying that you should ignore this threat. You should definitely adjust your strategy to accommodate it and not cast any insanely expensive spells that would cripple you to lose. If your spell book does not include a way to win without such expensive spells, then yeah you are pretty screwed. Your only hope is to try to eliminate the threat head on with a dispel war which your opponent has the advantage in or to hope they ARE bluffing and call them on it.

Assuming you have a plan B though, this threat doesn't hurt you much. Switch to plan B and play it out. If your opponent never reveals Divine Intervention, they have hurt themselves more than they've hurt you. They are at both a mana deficit and an action deficit behind you.

Now, if they do reveal Divine Intervention, we have switched topics. We are no longer talking about a threat, we are talking about an actuality. It is time to assess the damage. Since we were not casting any really expensive spells, they have most likely countered a medium creature or conjuration. They are out 18 mana and cost us lets theorize somewhere around 15 mana. They may have also cost us a Full Action (possibly two if you held a card back on round one, but if you could have cast it round one I think you should have gone ahead and traded actions then) compared to their Quick Action. They have also used up an Epic spell.

Overall, I don't think they have managed to gain an advantage with their play. Now, if they also manage to move you into a dangerous position, then yes, they have played well and set you back some. At this point though, it's not really that different from any other push or teleport effect. It is more difficult to defend against, and has unlimited range, but the effect is the same. They have put you some place you don't want to be. This happens quite often, and your book should include some kind of response to it.

The end result? Your opponent has traded equal resources with you to gain a positional advantage. Normally a positional advantage does require that they pay some sort of premium, but there are many situations where it can be achieved very cheaply (1 Mana Force Pull comes to mind). I will not argue that getting this advantage without having to spend a premium is a very nice benefit, but it hardly seems broken to me.

Now, there are many other scenarios out there. Many of them actually end up benefiting the defending mage. However, I fail to come up with any scenario where I would consider the tactic to be incredibly in favor of the holy mage conducting it, unless the defender makes a serious error in judgement and misplays. Granted, this does require that the defender know about the possibility of the tactic. As sIKE said "fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me."

So, we have a tactic that can end up benefiting the defender if you use it, and for which you can not expect a large return on investment unless the defender misplays. Does this detract from the game? It can force the defender to change tactics, but there are other cards that do that. It can win the game if they don't adapt to it, but there are other cards that do that as well. There's nothing all that special about this tactic, and it certainly does not break the game.

Quote from: DeckBuilder
Zuberi, I suspect you are an Arcane Wonders plant

^_^ this is actually quite flattering. I think I shall direct you to my very first post on these forums. (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=9255.msg9255#msg9255) There once was a time when I had some very noob questions myself. I did not appear over night, I just did not make any more posts for several months. You'll be surprised how much you can learn by observation.

Now, the first think I want to address is the fortress argument. There are a near infinite number of tactis, strategies, and scenarios we could discuss. They should all have countermeasures by the person running the fortress. I don't want to kill the fortress and make it an impossible play, I just don't want it to be a guaranteed win. My tactic of teleporting (or pushing) your mage out of their fortress should not succeed every time. However, I believe it should be a viable option.

I appreciate your thoughts about the war of attrition using arena wide effects, and siege warfare using ranged attacks. These should indeed be viable options to counter a fortress strategy as well, and would make the game more diverse. However, I don't think they should be the only options. They both involve long build ups and a slow drawn out game. That doesn't fit everyone's play style. What is the Aggro Mage supposed to do who wants to just rush in and start beating stuff up?

Rushing in is always going to put you at a disadvantage. You had to spend actions moving, while they spent actions building up and preparing. The obvious quick and dirty solution to negate this advantage is to separate them from their preparations.

It's really as simple as that. Some people using some strategies are going to want a QUICK solution that completely negates all of your build up. You should most certainly have ways to defend against this, but it should still be a viable tactic. Currently, I maintain it is viable. You seem to be trying to say it's not, but I have several games under my belt that prove otherwise, and the fact that the Fortress strategy does not dominate the meta seems to prove that it is. If it wasn't, then Aggro builds wouldn't exist. At all.

You can certainly do things to stop me from teleporting (or pushing) you out. I can certainly do things to try and get around that. The number of things and counter-things we can do is quite large. This diversity makes it impossible to guarantee an outcome in such a battle. Perhaps I will succeed and perhaps not. That is a good thing.

A separate issue is a teleport war. I'll actually agree with you that these are silly. However, unless you allow your opponent to keep a teleport wand, they are also finite. I can accept a bit of finite silliness in my game (though I can't speak for everyone, so perhaps this does ruin it for some). This does have the result of putting otherwise undue emphasis on a wand of teleport. I would VERY much like it if we could find a way to where I wasn't required to dissolve said wand. I think I am beginning to sound like a broken record by asking for a mechanic that prevents teleportation, but if I were able to put on a pair of boots or enchant my creatures so that they could not be teleported, then that would reduce the threat of said wand considerably (and the teleport mechanic in general).

I'm sorry if I give the impression that I care more about rules than game play. I suppose I don't really see much of a distinction between the two. The rules kind of dictate game play. Thus, the metrics of Fun, Intuitiveness, and Balance are in reality a measurement of the rules.

Balance is extremely important to me, actually. It's why 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons is my favorite edition (pretty sure I'm in the minority there) because it is the most balanced. Every strategy should be viable, and should have viable counters to it. Realistically, this isn't always the case, but it is the idea we should strive for.

Fun is also very important. Without fun nobody (myself included) would play. Different people have different ideas of what is fun though. I find chess fun (probably unsurprising to you) but I know many people who find it mind numbingly boring. When we discuss "fun" we may in fact be discussing very different concepts. For the game as a whole, I believe this means that ensuring it has a wide range of ways to play it maximizes it's fun quotient.

Intuitiveness is probably the hardest one for me to judge. I probably have an easier time picking things up than a lot of others (I'm the rules person in all the games my group plays, not just Mage Wars), so my own assessment of whether something makes sense or not is not necessarily a fair one. This is a metric I kind of have to test by seeing how easy it is to teach to others. I certainly agree it is important though.

Overall, I like this tripod of metrics you mentioned. I had never heard of it beforehand. At this point I believe everyone is aware of what the rule actually is. The discussion has been whether or not it is a good rule. For that judgement, comparing it to this tripod of metrics is a very good way to go about things. Thus, regarding Divine Intervention, I'm not going to say I support it because it is the official word. I'm going to say:

Balance = The defender does have ways to play against it. It is not a guaranteed win or even a guarantee of a significant advantage. Therefore, it is balanced.

Fun = I personally find it very fun. I would enjoy both playing it and playing against it. As the aggressor I like being able to force my opponent to respond to me and to potentially devastate them if they make a mistake. As the defender, I like the challenge of responding to their threat, and I actually like that I have to pull out my Plan B. It justifies including a Plan B, which I think every book should have.

Intuitive = I can see a problem here if you are teleporting the Mage into the same zone and saying it then counters the creature spell. I can think of ways to justify this thematically, but in general I agree it's an issue. However, if you teleport them to another zone, I believe it makes perfect sense.

Since I would rate intuitiveness below the other two metrics, I would be hesitant to change the rules to account for the few times this ruling is unintuitive. Changing the rules could upset the balance of the card, which is much more important to me, and I would not want to take that risk.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: tarkin84 on February 28, 2014, 04:56:26 AM
Tarkin, have you fallen victim to a Golem Pit or KoW pit as proposed here?

Just once. I played my Lair+Meditation amulet Beastmaster againts my girlfriend's Water wizard. Since we were both summoning but not moving into range, she decided to Jelly-pit me and took me totally by surprise: she is very smart but she has not so much experience with the game. I made the mistake of acting with my mage too early as I didn't consider the possibility of a Jelly pit (she had stacked Force hold, Nullify and Transfusion on her mage and I thought that those enchantment were Rhino, Regrowth and Nullify) and she seeking-dispelled my Nullify and teleported me into the pit. Next round I was dead. Props to her :D

But the players in my meta are either still learning the game or they do not like those strategies, so I haven't seen any more attempts to do so. And I don't play through OCTGN so I haven't had the opportunity to face the most awesome opposents ;)

I see the great value of the pit strategy, don't get me wrong. I feel that it's one of the most successful ways of playing if you are given time to set up (I really hope for this to change), specially with all those ultra-efficient slow creatures that need that sort of strategy to fully shine. But either you start with a 4x golem+producer which leaves you unarmored against some builds (Adramlelech+mongoose, Cervere+eagle wings) and can be out-turtled by another build, or you start with a spawnpoint like gate to Voltari (Jelly-pit) or temple of Asyra (KoW-pit) which leaves you open to a rush. And a Forcemaster can always pull the mage from his guards into her grizzlies. But I still think the pit strategy is very tough to beat.
Title: Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
Post by: Shad0w on February 28, 2014, 03:19:18 PM
we have several topics going on here. we should split them into seperate threads.