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Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: jacksmack on September 18, 2014, 08:45:31 AM

Title: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: jacksmack on September 18, 2014, 08:45:31 AM
Will the warlord be forced to attack himself or a friendly creature / conjuration if there is only 1 enemy creature in his zone - when he is declaring a full round sweep attack (war sledge)?
(the quick attack on this weapon does not daze, but the full action attack does.)
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 18, 2014, 09:56:52 AM
Quote
Sweeping (Attack Trait)

 This attack has a wide sweeping arc. A Sweeping attack is one attack action, which comprises 2 attacks against different targets in the same zone. After the first attack, start a new attack sequence (beginning with the Declare Attack Step) targeting a different object in the same zone. Note: The second attack cannot be made against the same target as the first attack. If there is not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round.

When a Flying creature uses a Sweeping attack, if the first target has Flying, the second target must also have Flying. Similarly, if the first target does not have Flying, the second target must also not have Flying.

If a creature uses a Sweeping attack that also has Reach, then the above restriction does not apply; the second target can be Flying or non-Flying, independent of the first target.
The Underline and Bold are my doings....
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: jacksmack on September 18, 2014, 10:35:01 AM
I need more words from you to understand your point.

you can target yourself and also your own creatures etc. So there is valid targets.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 18, 2014, 11:01:14 AM
Shift Clicking on card and dragging mouse pointer to target card. Bullseye!
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Schwenkgott on September 18, 2014, 11:16:43 AM
Rules and Codex Supplement Page 5:

<A creature may even attack itself, if it is a legal target for its own attack.>
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Wildhorn on September 18, 2014, 12:49:47 PM
If there is not a 2nd creature to slow down that hammer swing, you hit yourself in the head ;)
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Sailor Vulcan on September 18, 2014, 12:51:28 PM
In that case the only time there would not be a valid target would be if selsius attacked in rolling fog
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Zuberi on September 18, 2014, 04:17:30 PM
The only time there would not be a valid secondary target would be if you were all alone and decided to attack yourself initially. I'm not sure the rules were intended to force you to hit yourself if you wanted to use a sweeping attack against a single opponent, but I am having trouble finding an argument against that opinion.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: DaveW on September 18, 2014, 04:54:01 PM
I would say that there exists the option to attack an additional Creature, but that there exists no requirement to do so based on the rules under Mandatory Actions.

"Some effects will require a creature to perform a specific action, such as making a melee attack against a
particular enemy creature in its zone. Currently, the only such effects are Bloodthirsty and Taunt. These effects are referred to as mandatory actions."

(The underlining is mine for emphasis.)
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Zuberi on September 18, 2014, 09:22:16 PM
That is the same line of reasoning I was trying to explore myself in researching this, but it didn't really pan out for me. You are correct that this doesn't fall under the category of a mandatory action. However, at the point being discussed, you've already chosen to take the action by making the sweeping attack in the first place. The only thing left is to select the targets of it. We're not discussing taking an action, but rather finishing an action that you've already taken. Nothing in the rulebook or FAQ indicates that the second attack is in any way optional once a sweeping attack has already been initiated. It all indicates that you must finish the action if possible.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 18, 2014, 10:19:58 PM
I'm baffled, I posted straight from the FAQ the answer. If the player chooses not to target a second creature then there is "not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round." This would include himself....
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: jacksmack on September 19, 2014, 12:20:39 AM
I'm baffled, I posted straight from the FAQ the answer. If the player chooses not to target a second creature then there is "not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round." This would include himself....

Thats not what i get out of the bit you posted - and especially not the bolded/underlined piece.

I consider my friendly creautre and even my own mage who is doing the attack a valid target. Thats my problem.
This is what im seeking clarification of. Am i forced to attack myself or my own creature if i wish to try to land a daze marker using the war sledge against an enemy solo mage?
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Schwenkgott on September 19, 2014, 01:35:53 AM
Yes.

<A creature may even attack itself, if it is a legal target for its own attack.>
You are a legal target.

<If there is not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round.>
You have to attack two targets to use the sweeping attack.

-> Hit the enemy with the first strike (in order to get +melee bonus), and hit your face with the second attack.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: DaveW on September 19, 2014, 06:27:00 AM
@Zuberi: Good point... this is a different animal.

@sIKE: I'm with Jack.. I got the complete opposite idea from reading your other post. It didn't help that you didn't explain what you meant by quoting it also.

Can't someone just say: "I choose no target" when it is his attack or some such?

What happens if someone spends mana on a Flameblast spell, but the only other valid targets (other than the Mage casting it) are 2+ zones away? Must he attack himself? Surely that makes no sense... any Mage would just direct the attack into the next zone over, losing the mana and harming nothing. It's not like he lost control  of the spell... he just couldn't reach his intended target... no?

Similarly, it "makes sense" (even if the rules state otherwise) that the Mage using the Sledge doesn't lose control of it when attacking with it.

Should this be an errata in the Codex or somewhere else?
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Zuberi on September 19, 2014, 07:20:29 AM
You can't cast a Flameblast without a target at all, nor can I think of any reason you would want to. If your target moves or otherwise becomes illegal after you aim the spell at them, then the spell is cancelled, but you can't just choose to cast a spell aimed at nothing. Similarly, you can't choose to make an attack aimed at nothing, as far as I can tell, within the framework of the rules.

According to sweeping within the codex, it's not granting you the option of a second attack. It never says the word "may" or any other terms to indicate it is optional. Therefore, the second attack is necessary. You've already decided that you want to make both attacks whenever you declare that you are using a sweeping attack in the first place. Thus, you must finish making both attacks if at all possible, and having friendly creatures (including yourself) in the zone makes it possible.

As a side note with the Flameblast scenario, if somebody tries to cast Flameblast or some such and accidentally misreads the range as further than it actually is, then they are not required to hit themselves in the face with it when you point out their mistake and the lack of enemy targets within range. They can choose to simply not cast the spell, as per the rules on page 13 of the English Rulebook v3.

Thematically, I agree that it doesn't make much since that you would be required to hit yourself in the face with it. However, I have been unable to find anything in the rules that would support a decision not to use the second attack. It's just not worded in a way as to make it optional or to make friendly targets invalid. So, for now at least, if you want to use sweeping you have to be prepared to hit two targets even if that means hitting yourself. Unless I've missed something.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 19, 2014, 09:40:45 AM
@Zuberi

Ok, I take the total opposite view:

Note: The second attack cannot be made against the same target as the first attack. If there is not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round.

We are focused on the second attack here. The above wording implies that the second target has to be a valid target. I did include the whole write up for Sweeping and no where in it do I see that it is mandatory for me to target a second creature. Furthermore everywhere I looked in the Codex, the FAQ, and the Core rules the only adjective I ever saw before target or targeting was "may" with the explicit exception of Taunt. I the game the way the rules normally play, the mage may target in creature that is in range. If he chooses Target 1 but does not choose Target 2, (as he may or may not choose too) then the Sweeping trait would have no effect this round.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Maverick on September 19, 2014, 09:54:40 AM
Not a rules guru or anything. But reading what the rules state I interpret the second attack as mandatory. As the rules state that the mage is a valid attack target and the second attack of sweeping is not optional then you would have no choice but to direct it towards your mage in the absence of other targets. If it is not intended by the rules a clarification is needed in the FAQ as many of us interpret it this way. Personally I would just forgo using sweeping attacks in that scenario but it makes the underpowered War Sledge even worse.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 19, 2014, 10:15:47 AM
Where?
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Zuberi on September 19, 2014, 10:57:41 AM
Okay, I'm going to agree with sIKE on this one. I'm chocking myself up to a total brain-fart on this issue. It basically breaks down to targeting options vs actual targets. It is obvious that there are other creatures available, such as yourself, that you could target, but if you don't select them, then they aren't actual targets. Therefore, the line in the sweeping definition about no different valid targets existing would apply, since you didn't create any other valid targets out of the options presented to you.

I will point out to sIKE that on page 22 of the rulebook though, it does say a target is required for an attack. You can't just attack nothing. This is what I was getting hung up on, but since we are okay with the second attack not occurring I now realize it is somewhat irrelevant.

Sweeping says you must make the second attack if you have a target. Attacking says that all attacks must have targets. Therefore, I was thinking you'd be forced to select a target and carry through with the attack, but that is faulty logic on my part. I apologize.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Maverick on September 19, 2014, 12:29:50 PM
Quote
Sweeping (Attack Trait)

 This attack has a wide sweeping arc. A Sweeping attack is one attack action, which comprises 2 attacks against different targets in the same zone. After the first attack, start a new attack sequence (beginning with the Declare Attack Step) targeting a different object in the same zone. Note: The second attack cannot be made against the same target as the first attack. If there is not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round.

When a Flying creature uses a Sweeping attack, if the first target has Flying, the second target must also have Flying. Similarly, if the first target does not have Flying, the second target must also not have Flying.

If a creature uses a Sweeping attack that also has Reach, then the above restriction does not apply; the second target can be Flying or non-Flying, independent of the first target.
The Underline and Bold are my doings....

"After the first attack, start a new attack sequence (beginning with the Declare Attack Step) targeting a different object in the same zone." This sentence says you have to declare a target after your first attack. This makes the act of declaring a target mandatory.

Your own creatures and mage are able to be targeted by an attack. So "If there is not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round." does not apply. This is due to your own controlled creatures and the mage itself in fact being a valid option for the attack.

 I doubt this is intended by design but it is what I read.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Kharhaz on September 19, 2014, 01:06:20 PM

Sweeping says you must make the second attack if you have a target. Attacking says that all attacks must have targets. Therefore, I was thinking you'd be forced to select a target and carry through with the attack, but that is faulty logic on my part. I apologize.

You are forced to follow through with the sweeping attack

Multiple Target Attacks, like sweep, are there own category on the attack procedure table. You go through steps 1 - 4 and 6 -8. On step 8 you must make another attack. It would be like deciding "I don't want to roll damage" in step 4, the second attack here, in sweeps case, is mandatory.

You then repeat step 1 and if there is no valid target, it is resolved as per normal.

the only stretch I can see in the rules is the wording on attacking yourself. You "may" even attack yourself could imply that you have the option to not allow attacks you make to treat the source as a legal target.  Would not prevent friendly fire but it does stop the hammer in mouth scenario
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 19, 2014, 01:35:23 PM
Friendly Attacks
Creatures may attack friendly creatures.

Once again no where do I find a rule stating that a mage HAS to target a friendly creature.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Wildhorn on September 19, 2014, 02:47:39 PM
Friendly Attacks
Creatures may attack friendly creatures.

Once again no where do I find a rule stating that a mage HAS to target a friendly creature.

"May" means that you are allowed to.

Since the 2nd attack is mandatory if you have a legal target (aka you may attack yourself),  you have to.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Wildhorn on September 19, 2014, 02:49:09 PM
Basically a Sweeping Attack is Zone Attack with limited amount of target. And just like Zone Attack, you can't decide to not attack yourself.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 19, 2014, 03:55:09 PM
I just don't see it after reading it multiple times. I do not see the word must or mandatoy anywhere in the codex for Sweeping. You start a new attack sequence (beginning with the Declare Attack Step) targeting a different object, if you choose not to target an object (friend or enemy) then there is not a different valid target for the second attack, and the Sweeping trait has no effect this round.

This is a melee attack not spell that is being cast, an attack spell has to work through both cast spell and attack processes. You have to have a legal target to start both an attack and an attack spell. However with the Sweeping trait the second attack starts with the Declare Attack Step, which is when you choose a target, if you choose not to target an object the attack sequence ends and this trait would have no effect.

At this point I believe both sides have presented very strong and logical arguments with the data that we have on hand. We are arriving at different interpretations from the same data though and I think that it is time for a high power to give us guidance on the issue. 
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: DaveW on September 19, 2014, 05:36:00 PM
According to sweeping within the codex.... It never says the word "may" or any other terms to indicate it is optional. Therefore, the second attack is necessary.

I do not see anything in the Codex that says "must" either. Therefore the second attack is optional. (This is the same logic that you use... since it doesn't specify one way, it must be the other....)

It just says that you move on to the next attack, so I'm wondering why you can't just say "I'm done attacking."

In the case of Whirling Strike, the card specifically says "may" ... and finishes with the text "in the same manner as the sweeping trait." (Yes, I know that the sentence talks about making attacks one after the other in the same manner... but it is my contention that Whirling Strike is essentially the Sweeping trait in Incantation form, and that the "may" attack provision should be assumed by Sweeping as well.)

I feel that someone needs to indicate that attacks happen only by choice except in the case of mandatory actions. I felt that that was the intent of the rules, at least.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 19, 2014, 05:38:57 PM
I think we all agree on intent, the question is if the rules contravene the intent...
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Shad0w on September 19, 2014, 06:25:52 PM
With sweeping you must make the second attack if you have another legal target. This second attack is not optional. >:(
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 19, 2014, 06:26:29 PM
With sweeping you must make the second attack if you have another legal target. This second attack is not optional. >:(
Is this the intent?
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Shad0w on September 19, 2014, 09:39:45 PM
With sweeping you must make the second attack if you have another legal target. This second attack is not optional. >:(
Is this the intent?




It is how the rules work.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 19, 2014, 09:56:33 PM
Man talk about killing a LoF rush! Here that sound? All War Sledges not already taken out of spellbooks are now flying out to that card grave yard out back.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Boocheck on September 20, 2014, 01:56:05 AM
If we have a mage an enemy mage in one zone, with noone else there, my warlord would be not able to use full attack of a war sledge? Or he will be a second target of that attack?

What is a purpous of this? To prevent overusage of fullattacks with sweeping? I must be really ovelooking something :-)
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: jacksmack on September 20, 2014, 03:23:45 AM
If we have a mage an enemy mage in one zone, with noone else there, my warlord would be not able to use full attack of a war sledge? Or he will be a second target of that attack?

You serious?

This whole thread was about exactly this. And Shadow answered.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Boocheck on September 20, 2014, 09:39:37 AM
Was sarcastic... :)

Not just hammer but East Wind chick just get her wings clipped :(
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 20, 2014, 09:49:29 AM
East Wind chick just get her wings clipped :(
Oh Mighty Hand of Bim-Shalla why oh why did I hit myself in the eye with an Angels Feather! Why? Why!

Sir Corazon - it's just a Flesh Wound!

On a serious note: Acid Blast, Adramelech, Dwarf Kriegsbiel, Galvitar (it at least has an or Doublestrike), Sardoynx, Selesius, Sir Corazin, War Sledge, and Windstorm all took a hit here, I am sad.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Kharhaz on September 20, 2014, 12:02:32 PM
On a serious note: Acid Blast, Adramelech, Dwarf Kriegsbiel, Galvitar (it at least has an or Doublestrike), Sardoynx, Selesius, Sir Corazin, War Sledge, and Windstorm all took a hit here, I am sad.

Acid Blast and Windstorm are ranged so you can still use them that way and not necessarily target self / friendlies.

Adramelech, Dwarf Kriegsbiel, Galvitar, Sir Corazin would never use their sweep unless there are 2 targets so no harm there. However mind control is funnier now.

Selesius cannot target herself because she is wind immune

War Sledge loses a daze chance but otherwise nets the same damage roll

Mage Wars will never be the same again

Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: DaveW on September 20, 2014, 01:44:00 PM
With sweeping you must make the second attack if you have another legal target. This second attack is not optional. >:(
Is this the intent?
It is how the rules work.
I understand that this is how the rules (currently) work. Will something be changed, perhaps?
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Shad0w on September 20, 2014, 03:04:48 PM
If it was to get changed it would not be soon.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: wtcannonjr on September 20, 2014, 09:32:04 PM
Just saw this thread and wanted to share this wording under Step 5. Additional Strikes of the Combat section in the RAW.

"Some traits, such as Triplestrike, allow the attacker to make additional attacks against the same target."

The underlined word states "allow" not "require". Can we use this nuisance to clarify that any additional strikes from attack traits are always optional? This seems to be the intent using the wording under this section of the rules.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Wildhorn on September 20, 2014, 10:04:55 PM
Just saw this thread and wanted to share this wording under Step 5. Additional Strikes of the Combat section in the RAW.

"Some traits, such as Triplestrike, allow the attacker to make additional attacks against the same target."

The underlined word states "allow" not "require". Can we use this nuisance to clarify that any additional strikes from attack traits are always optional? This seems to be the intent using the wording under this section of the rules.


So what? "Allow" definition is: admit (an event or activity) as legal or acceptable.

NOT: "gives you the option to or not to".

"Allow" just means Triplestrike allow you to attack the same target 3 times. Not that you may or may not. It just means that it allow you to perform it, while normally, with a non-Triplestrike attack you are not allowed.

English is not my main language and I seem to understand it better than most english-people... I am flabergasted.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: HeatStryke on September 20, 2014, 11:15:46 PM
People are simply over thinking this.

It is safe to assume a rule is mandatory unless it explicitly says otherwise. You use an attack with Piercing you get the bonus. You don't choose if you WANT the bonus.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 21, 2014, 12:11:12 AM
People are simply over thinking this.

It is safe to assume a rule is mandatory unless it explicitly says otherwise. You use an attack with Piercing you get the bonus. You don't choose if you WANT the bonus.
I think the most awesome thing about this game is the rules make sense, hitting myself in the head with my own weapon doesn't, period the end. If someone forgot to put enemy or may into the rule, now that make sense.

Luckily the Lord of Fire is Flame Immune so he is saved by another rule so it is not so bad for him.

Just makes me sad, just sadness...
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: kailas on September 21, 2014, 05:44:42 AM
Has anyone used sweeping for one enemy?

I would agree with sike, in a logical chain sweeping 2 attack is a must, but when choosing a friendly u have an option "may".

A Dwarf Kriegsbiel attacks a Mountain Gorilla in his zone as the first attack of his Sweeping attack. 8
The Mountain Gorilla reveals a Divine Intervention on itself, and teleports away (to the same or different zone).
That attack is canceled, and the Dwarf Kriegsbiel may then proceed to his second attack and choose a different
target in the same zone, if any are available. He may not choose the Mountain Gorilla again, even if it
teleported into the same zone, since Sweeping requires the second attack to target a different creature.

It says may, and nothing about targeting himself.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: jacksmack on September 21, 2014, 06:52:13 AM
On a serious note: Acid Blast, Adramelech, Dwarf Kriegsbiel, Galvitar (it at least has an or Doublestrike), Sardoynx, Selesius, Sir Corazin, War Sledge, and Windstorm all took a hit here, I am sad.

Acid Blast and Windstorm are ranged so you can still use them that way and not necessarily target self / friendlies.

Adramelech, Dwarf Kriegsbiel, Galvitar, Sir Corazin would never use their sweep unless there are 2 targets so no harm there. However mind control is funnier now.

Selesius cannot target herself because she is wind immune

War Sledge loses a daze chance but otherwise nets the same damage roll

Mage Wars will never be the same again

It might be a sought out example - but corazin and dwarf kriegsbiel can be forced to attack themselves.

Lets say there is a warlock in a zone with his demon and you wish to cleave both - the only problem is if he has helm of fear.

Divine intervention revealed at the right time could make this happen too under the right circumstances.

Finally  - if there ever is an enchantment with similar effect to suppression cloak this could also end up causing a sweep attack to hit yourself.


What was the final ruling to selesius and her sweeping attack?
Can she target 1 flying and 1 non flying unlike Adremelach?
Must the targets be in the same zone?
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Kharhaz on September 21, 2014, 09:22:43 AM
Just saw this thread and wanted to share this wording under Step 5. Additional Strikes of the Combat section in the RAW.

"Some traits, such as Triplestrike, allow the attacker to make additional attacks against the same target."

As per the FAQ Sweep is a multiple target attack and triple / double are multiple strike attacks. Specifically, sweep skips the 5th step.

Apples and oranges my friend.


What was the final ruling to selesius and her sweeping attack?
Can she target 1 flying and 1 non flying unlike Adremelach?
Must the targets be in the same zone?

It's in the Faq.

"When a flying creature uses a sweeping attack, if the first target has Flying, the second target must also have Flying. Similarly, if the first target does not have flying, the second target must also not have flying."

If the attack also has reach then the above restriction does not apply.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: jacksmack on September 21, 2014, 09:31:14 AM

What was the final ruling to selesius and her sweeping attack?
Can she target 1 flying and 1 non flying unlike Adremelach?
Must the targets be in the same zone?

It's in the Faq.

"When a flying creature uses a sweeping attack, if the first target has Flying, the second target must also have Flying. Similarly, if the first target does not have flying, the second target must also not have flying."

If the attack also has reach then the above restriction does not apply.

So reach is better than ranged in this case? or am I missing something?

it feels like this was added without taking ranged sweeps into account.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Kharhaz on September 21, 2014, 10:02:03 AM

A Dwarf Kriegsbiel attacks a Mountain Gorilla in his zone as the first attack of his Sweeping attack. 8
The Mountain Gorilla reveals a Divine Intervention on itself, and teleports away (to the same or different zone).
That attack is canceled, and the Dwarf Kriegsbiel may then proceed to his second attack and choose a different
target in the same zone, if any are available. He may not choose the Mountain Gorilla again, even if it
teleported into the same zone, since Sweeping requires the second attack to target a different creature.

It says may, and nothing about targeting himself.

No.

When an attack is cancelled you no longer run through the steps. In that example when the DI moves the gorilla and the attack is canceled that entire action ends. Same thing with helm of fear, if the attack is canceled the controller can choose a new target, hit face, or end the attack sequence there.

Now if there is a mountain gorilla and an emerald tegu in your example. I have my dwarf use a sweeping attack and target the tegu first. Before that resolves I reveal DI, and move the gorilla, then the dwarf will hit himself in the face as the sweeping attack is never cancelled

as per the codex
Cancel
If a spell, attack, or effect is canceled, it stops and has no further effect
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 21, 2014, 10:45:32 AM
Quote
Acid Blast and Windstorm are ranged so you can still use them that way and not necessarily target self / friendlies.
So its late game I have my Highland Unicorn who after Upkeep has one Life left and large stack of Enchantments that I would love dearly love to not loose. The only other creature in the zone is Cervere, The Forest Shadow who has two Life left.  I am one zone away but my opponent has initiative the only thing I have left with range is you guessed it: Windstorm. Luckily it is Unavoidable but now I have to target Cervere and my Unicorn, Cervere lives and the Unicorn dies.

Thanks a lot Geverus Tnape at Slogwarts for not teaching me how to aim my sweeping spells so I don't have to target my friendly creatures but I can catch that stoopid flying golf ball! You would think that after a 1000 years of magic school they would teach this most basic of skills!
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Wildhorn on September 21, 2014, 11:45:38 AM
Has anyone used sweeping for one enemy?

I would agree with sike, in a logical chain sweeping 2 attack is a must, but when choosing a friendly u have an option "may".

A Dwarf Kriegsbiel attacks a Mountain Gorilla in his zone as the first attack of his Sweeping attack. 8
The Mountain Gorilla reveals a Divine Intervention on itself, and teleports away (to the same or different zone).
That attack is canceled, and the Dwarf Kriegsbiel may then proceed to his second attack and choose a different
target in the same zone, if any are available. He may not choose the Mountain Gorilla again, even if it
teleported into the same zone, since Sweeping requires the second attack to target a different creature.

It says may, and nothing about targeting himself.

Definition of "may": expressing possibility/permission.

NOT "expression the choice of to or not to".

The attack require you to attack another target. And you have the possibility to attack a friendly target (aka your mage), so you are require to target it if it is the only target left.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Kharhaz on September 21, 2014, 11:49:15 AM
Quote
Acid Blast and Windstorm are ranged so you can still use them that way and not necessarily target self / friendlies.
So its late game I have my Highland Unicorn who after Upkeep has one Life left and large stack of Enchantments that I would love dearly love to not loose. The only other creature in the zone is Cervere, The Forest Shadow who has two Life left.  I am one zone away but my opponent has initiative the only thing I have left with range is you guessed it: Windstorm. Luckily it is Unavoidable but now I have to target Cervere and my Unicorn, Cervere lives and the Unicorn dies.

Thanks a lot Geverus Tnape at Slogwarts for not teaching me how to aim my sweeping spells so I don't have to target my friendly creatures but I can catch that stoopid flying golf ball! You would think that after a 1000 years of magic school they would teach this most basic of skills!

No different than only having a zone attack left

Zone attack targets and entire zone, a sweep attack targets two different creatures, double / triple strike target the same creature multiple times. While a bit silly logically, I agree, there are only a small percentage of times where this would be an issue. Sweeping attacks are generally less effective than the creatures quick action options. Selesius and war sledge are the current exceptions to that statement, and Selesius cannot target herself anyway. War Sledge loses the ability to single target daze.

Most other situations are moments where the player does it to themselves, no different than targeting a zone with friendly and enemy creatures with a zone attack. The above DI example is a once a game situation but can happen.

Mind control is also worth mentioning as the creature can attack an enemy creature and himself; which is a win win for the forcemaster.

Also something to note is if the sweeping creature does attack himself, it would also trigger his bloodthirsty  bonus dice trait if it had one.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Zuberi on September 21, 2014, 12:26:28 PM
@jacksmack

A ranged sweeping attack can target both a flyer and a non-flyer as long as they are in the same zone. The only reason a melee attack cannot do this is because the creature has to give up flying to hit a non-flyer and thus is no longer able to attack a flyer afterwards. They also can not lose flying in the middle of their action, so they couldn't give it up after attacking a flyer first. Ranged attacks don't have to worry about whether the attacker is in the air or not. Both flyers and non-flyers are valid targets for the ranged attack, and thus sweeping can hit both.

It should also be noted that reach only works for non-flyers. A flying creature with reach can not hit another flying creature and then hit a non-flyer because they are then still in the air. However, it could give up flying to hit a non-flyer and then hit a flying creature because it would then be a non-flyer for the duration of the attack. Reach in the codex simply states it allows you to hit flying creatures. It does not allow a flying creature to hit a non-flyer without giving up the flying trait first.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Kharhaz on September 21, 2014, 12:41:20 PM
@jacksmack

A ranged sweeping attack can target both a flyer and a non-flyer as long as they are in the same zone. The only reason a melee attack cannot do this is because the creature has to give up flying to hit a non-flyer and thus is no longer able to attack a flyer afterwards. They also can not lose flying in the middle of their action, so they couldn't give it up after attacking a flyer first. Ranged attacks don't have to worry about whether the attacker is in the air or not. Both flyers and non-flyers are valid targets for the ranged attack, and thus sweeping can hit both.


The FAQ as written applies to all sweeping attacks made by flying creatures, ranged or melee.

I agree that there should be another * added to allow ranged attacks to also exempt this rule (it is an issue derived from targeting which is legal for the ranged attack). However, as it stands only the reach trait allows you to bypass this rule.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Zuberi on September 21, 2014, 02:33:04 PM
Quote from: Official Rules and Codex Supplement
Sweeping

A creature must be legally able to attack both targets with its Sweeping attack.

A creature cannot gain or lose the Flying trait in the middle of an attack action. When a Flying creature uses a Sweeping Melee attack, if the first target has Flying, the second target must also have Flying. If the first target does not have Flying, then the Flying creature will have to lose the flying trait to attack them, thus their second target must also be non-Flying.

For example, if a Flying creature with a Sweeping Melee attack makes its first attack against a Flying creature, it will not be able to make its second attack against a non-Flying creature (since it is in the middle of the attack action, so it can’t lose Flying), or vice versa.

If a non-flying creature uses a Sweeping Melee attack that also has Reach it is legally able to attack Flying and non-Flying, and so it may target both Flying and non-Flying targets. Similarly, a Sweeping Ranged attack may target both Flying and non-Flying targets.

You may have an outdated copy of the FAQ. This is the total text for Sweeping in the FAQ on page 23 (with bolded emphasis from me). It clearly states that the whole issue is a targeting issue that only causes problems for Melee attacks. Ranged attacks are able to target both and so are able to be used against both. Also, reach only allows you to attack both if the attacker is non-flying (so a flyer would have to attack a non-flyer first if they want to benefit from Reach).
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Kharhaz on September 22, 2014, 02:02:20 AM
It would appear my copy of the FAQ is missing a sentence or two from that trait. I will need to find an updated copy
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Shad0w on September 25, 2014, 10:15:03 PM
Sweeping:
Attack requires you to attack another target after attacking the first target. You have the possibility to attack a friendly target (aka your mage), you are required to target that object if it is the only target left.

For example if you had a creature with Sweeping 3: If the controller used this attack. The creature would be required to attack 3 different targets even if two of the are friendly.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 25, 2014, 10:21:51 PM
Where did you get this from? Is this the re-write of the rule to clarify?
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Wildhorn on September 26, 2014, 06:36:23 AM
Where did you get this from? Is this the re-write of the rule to clarify?

It is the simple logic reading of the current rules.

You think you have the option because you translate "may" to "you have to option to or not to" while what "may" means is "you can/it is allowed to".
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 26, 2014, 10:11:01 AM
Where did you get this from? Is this the re-write of the rule to clarify?

It is the simple logic reading of the current rules.

You think you have the option because you translate "may" to "you have to option to or not to" while what "may" means is "you can/it is allowed to".
Sorry if I deal with a lot of legalese and must and may mean something totally different to me. One is optional (may) and the other must (mandatory). I even think taking the legalese out of the picture they roughly still mean the same thing, one is optional (may) the other is not (must).

The reason I ask this of Shad0w, was since he is on the rules committee he is the font of finality when it comes to rules and I was wanting to know if this is how they are reading in-between the words now or this was how they were going to update the rule to read.

The main reason for my opinion is that it makes no reasonable amount of sense that my creature with the Sweeping trait could not pull up on the attack (or shoot it into space) in order not to hit a friendly.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Boocheck on September 26, 2014, 11:33:17 AM
I agree. All rules so far were making sense until now.  Well, except Lightning +X on heavy armored targets but this make sense at least in balance options.

Fact, that mighty Trokoth, leader of the Bloodwave nearly killed him self when he used full attack while defeating Paladin Siegfried is hardly acceptable :)...

But maybe its explaining the reasons why he died in Menace of Ruination. :(
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 26, 2014, 11:48:09 AM
He fell in the Arena?  :o
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Laddinfance on September 26, 2014, 12:08:16 PM
I agree. All rules so far were making sense until now.  Well, except Lightning +X on heavy armored targets but this make sense at least in balance options.

Fact, that mighty Trokoth, leader of the Bloodwave nearly killed him self when he used full attack while defeating Paladin Siegfried is hardly acceptable :)...

But maybe its explaining the reasons why he died in Menace of Ruination. :(

Quote from: trokoth
Reports of my demise were greatly exaggerated.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Boocheck on September 26, 2014, 03:20:39 PM
He fell in the Arena?  :o

LINK: http://www.arcanewonders.com/mage-wars-organized-play down there :)



Quote from: trokoth
Reports of my demise were greatly exaggerated.
[/quote]

AHH! I am having a hunch where this will be going! Very cool :)
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 26, 2014, 03:34:42 PM
He fell in the Arena?  :o

LINK: http://www.arcanewonders.com/mage-wars-organized-play down there :)



Quote from: trokoth
Reports of my demise were greatly exaggerated.

AHH! I am having a hunch where this will be going! Very cool :)
[/quote]
AHH! You haven't get to read the story line......
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: DaveW on September 26, 2014, 04:54:20 PM
So... on this hypothetical Creature with Sweeping 3... could he make the attack at all if there were only two targets in the zone (an enemy and himself)? He could never complete the action....
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: sIKE on September 26, 2014, 05:36:31 PM
A good question the rule as written only covers two attacks:

If there is not a different valid target for the second attack, then the Sweeping trait has no effect this round.

So if there is a valid second target and not a third....I can not answer as I don't know how to interpret and make a "what I would think is logical ruling" in this brave new world.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Maverick on September 26, 2014, 08:13:56 PM
Is there a creature with sweeping 3? The only effect I can think of with that effect is the incantation Whirling strike.

The ruling on it is"The additional targets work in same manner as the Sweeping trait, except there are two (2) additional targets instead of one (1) additional target. If an attack with additional strikes (such as a “Doublestrike” or “Triplestrike” attack) is made using Whirling Strike, the additional strikes will only be applied to the first target; the subsequent targets will only receive one strike each."

So rules as written cover this situation. If there is no valid target for the final strike it is canceled. If applicable your own controlled objects are valid per the ruling in this thread.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: DaveW on September 27, 2014, 08:01:21 AM
Is there a creature with sweeping 3?

Shad0w brought up the Creature with the hypothetical Sweeping 3 trait a number of posts back.

"For example if you had a creature with Sweeping 3"

My question was a follow-on to his comment. I also say "hypothetical" in my note.

Yes, I understand that there currently is no such Creature, and the Whirling Strike is different... I was just pointing out that some additional consideration may need to be made if, in the future, this hypothetical Creature is created.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Maverick on September 27, 2014, 11:13:29 AM
Sorry it appears my fat finger skipped over page 4 of the thread. Sorry I missed that discussion unintentionally. On that regard I think sweeping 3 would require errata to sweeping or instead of sweeping they would have to print out the text on Whirling strike for the creature that has it.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Laddinfance on November 10, 2014, 02:56:47 PM
So everyone is aware, the extra attack generated by sweeping is optional. So, if your Warlord and one opposing creature are in the same zone, he can use the full action attack without clubbing himself in the head. I have spoken to Bryan about this and the original text did not imply that the attack had to be made, but it also did not imply that the attack was optional either. We will be fixing this on future printings. Evidentally the text in the comprehensive codex was unintentionally more specific and that will be repaired as well. Thank you all for bringing this question to our attention. If you have further questions on this subject feel free to contact me. Thanks!
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Wise fool on November 10, 2014, 03:07:31 PM
Huzzah!!!  One less reason to hate the Warlord - he no longer hits himself in the face!
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Maverick on November 10, 2014, 03:54:27 PM
Still not a fan of the War Sledge but it has at least one redeeming quality now. 2 hands for 4 damage dice and the option of maybe doing a sweeping attack is still not worthwhile. If reprinted I vote it gets bumped up to 5 damage dice.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Boocheck on November 11, 2014, 02:20:10 AM
I hope that i am using a right analogy here but War Sledge for me is something like red sox. One of my first games with Warlord was with War Sledge before i get used to the game and "wake up" :)


As Maverick said, give it +1 attack dice or lower its mana cost. This equip will be solid then :)
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: BoomFrog on November 11, 2014, 10:10:38 AM
War sledge is great in very specific circumstances. If it was great all the time it would be to good. I still use it occasionally and when I do it gets dissolved immediately. That's the highest compliment possible.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: kailas on November 11, 2014, 01:10:35 PM
It is fine as it is, sweeping with +7 daze. Yes it is situational. The problems lies in two hands?
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Wildhorn on November 11, 2014, 01:15:11 PM
It is fine as it is, sweeping with +7 daze. Yes it is situational. The problems lies in two hands?

Yes the problem is the 2 hand. The stats are good for a 1h, but preventing to use Horn or a Wand or eventually a Shield need a bigger benefit.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Maverick on November 11, 2014, 02:38:19 PM
The War Sledge is revealed when you equip it so you advertise the fact that you have a sweeping attack. Your opponent will play accordingly. Personally I just run one copy of Whirling Strike in my book. The opponent never sees it coming and cannot counter it. Plus you can use an actual good weapon such as the Morning Star or my favorite the underrated Staff of the Arcanum.

2 hands occupied for an advertised sweeping effect, a 50% daze chance, and the same damage as every one handed weapon is just not worth it. Granted that is my opinion not necessarily fact.
Title: Re: War sledge sweeping attack with only 1 enemy in zone
Post by: Shad0w on November 12, 2014, 10:26:18 PM
Try for the info update on sweeping.