Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => Spells => Topic started by: echephron on June 16, 2015, 01:23:40 AM

Title: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: echephron on June 16, 2015, 01:23:40 AM
No thread just about Samara Tree which isn't in the rules section so here we go.

I think the idea behind the tree is solid and lends itself to a strategy of delayed actions and counterplay, but vine tree can be used for so many things, including seedling pods, that it overshadows Samara.

I think Samara could use a boost, even though it's not gonna happen. I think Samara Tree would become awesome if, as a free action, it could cast one seedling pod immediately upon being cast.

Alternatively, remove Samara's channelling and make the seedling pods it summons start with one mana. That would make it easier to use. With tataree help, you could have a seedling cast on turn 2 able to deploy on turn 3. It sounds too good, but only because of tataree and she can be one-shotted pretty easy.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Laddinfance on June 16, 2015, 08:15:35 AM
I've seen the arguments made that Vine Tree is the superior tree. If we want to provide more reason for using either, then I don't think you want to "speed up" the tree. You should focus on what the trees do differently. The largest benefit that Samara Tree has is the reusability of Seeding Pods. So the first thing that would seperate them would be having more plant spells that are not vines. Seeding Pods can cast any plant spell. You've also taken nothing away from the Vine Tree. The second thing you could do is print something that requires the druid to destroy one of her Plant Conjurations. You have a limitless supply of Seeding Pods so having some way to cash them in for an effect before they're "ripe" would also provide a unique interaction for the Druid.

Obviously the alternate Druid is a ways off, but these are ideas I've been mulling over.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Bluebaron on June 16, 2015, 09:13:44 AM
These are great ideas Laddinfance. I think that would be the right direction to develop the samara tree further. Make it more unique and give it some special use.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: V10lentray on June 16, 2015, 09:36:37 AM
I've always found that when trying to use the Samara Tree and the seedling pods, that the pods always seemed to get killed before ever being ready to pop.

On the plus side, that means the opponent is attacking something other than me or my creatures.

On the downside, that was bunch of time and mana resources spent on that Pod getting blown up.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Coshade on June 16, 2015, 11:42:14 AM
I really wish you could use Kraelthor to eat the seedling pods (and them not obliterate) and do a build up type strategy. Currently my problem with Samara tree is just running out of time, and that seedling pods take up spellbook points. I think using the pod doesn't actually gain you an action. If you sprout it at 3 mana I think you just turned your wheels and didn't go anywhere. If you wait for more then three mana, I find I don't have enough things to properly defend myself with. It's super tricky. The nice part is that the druid can get a lot of armor fast.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: ACG on June 16, 2015, 05:26:49 PM
I think using the pod doesn't actually gain you an action. If you sprout it at 3 mana I think you just turned your wheels and didn't go anywhere.

It isn't about gaining an action; it is about being able to bank an action for later. In the early game especially, you have to use the precious limited resource of actions without fully understanding your opponent's strategy. With Seedling Pods, you don't need to make an immediate commitment to a particular strategy, and can wait to see what your opponent does without wasting the actions you need to counter it.

At the moment, the options as far as plants go are a bit limited, so it doesn't have the versatility it could. As more different plants with diverse functions appear, Seedling Pods will become more and more useful, since you will be able to respond to a greater array of threats.

In short, if you want to make Samara Tree better, just more plant spells. Lots of plant spells. Plant spells with all sorts of uses; anti-enchantment plant spells (like Magisbane Lily (https://www.dropbox.com/s/wzo2nvs6ojj0k71/Magisbane.jpg?dl=0)), anti-swarm plant spells (like Lychweed (https://www.dropbox.com/s/aqsad3yfxe8aell/Lychweed.jpg?dl=0)), anti-conjuration plant spells (like Creepervine (https://www.dropbox.com/s/26spz5e7g3x96f9/Wychwood%20Creepervine.jpg?dl=0)), anti-nonliving plant spells (like Sunflower (https://www.dropbox.com/s/u5m2vodvcwu1pt9/Sunflower.jpg?dl=0)), etc. A full toolbox of plant spells will let the ability of seedling pods to delay decisions really shine, and will make Samara Tree a more attractive option relative to Vine Tree. It doesn't even matter whether the new plants are vines or not; the point is the ability to postpone committing to a particular strategy.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Coshade on June 16, 2015, 05:55:46 PM
@ACG - This is a really good way of thinking about it. I am excited to see what kind of plant spells come out in the future to make me want to use the Samara Tree. A lot of the spells you posted would go perfect with the Druid.

Do you use Tataree in your book? If you have a book would you mind posting it sometime? I'd love to take a look at it! I haven't really explored the Druid Samara builds a lot and would love to learn.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: echephron on June 17, 2015, 04:41:00 PM
Some considerations of seedling pods:
Only one per zone combined with a 3 turn charge time means that you can't focus spawning into one zone like vinetree can. This suggests a strategy of using other zones to effect your vulnerable zones, like a thornlasher or a lifetree.

If you make a seedling pod, and no enemies are close to it, there is not a lot which that pod can do, especially if the zone exclusive slot of that zone is already filled. I don't like making a plant creature which has to move across 4 zones before it can do anything. Part of that is personal taste in that I don't like to include mobile plant creatures(other than ents) into my spellbooks since they seem anti-theme to me.

ideas for more plants:
-non-vine Trees which have arena-wide effect. It might be nice if, when they are treebonded, the effect increases. More incentive to not treebond a spawnpoint.
-a level 3 immobile non-vine plant which is a mix between a bridge troll and a vinesnapper.
-a non-vine plant incantation which effectively teleports(without the teleport subtype) target something(likely a plant object) to its zone. Others have made versions of this already on the forums.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Schwenkgott on June 18, 2015, 01:52:22 AM
Heinz, the legendary flesh-eating Tomato!
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: pete2 on June 18, 2015, 03:35:25 AM
Wooow..i' suddenly had a vision of a board filled with vines and trees..and pods exploding everywhere...this post boosted my imagination to revis my current druid build...
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: fas723 on June 18, 2015, 11:39:57 AM
Heinz, the legendary flesh-eating Tomato!

I totally support this! As long as it got bloodthirsty +5.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Laddinfance on June 18, 2015, 12:19:43 PM
Heinz, the legendary flesh-eating Tomato!

I totally support this! As long as it got bloodthirsty +5.

Audrey II?
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Coshade on June 18, 2015, 02:43:25 PM
Ketchup enchantments!
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: ACG on June 18, 2015, 03:40:34 PM
@ACG - This is a really good way of thinking about it. I am excited to see what kind of plant spells come out in the future to make me want to use the Samara Tree. A lot of the spells you posted would go perfect with the Druid.

Do you use Tataree in your book? If you have a book would you mind posting it sometime? I'd love to take a look at it! I haven't really explored the Druid Samara builds a lot and would love to learn.

Sure. I have a build that I am hoping to possibly test tonight, which I will post assuming it doesn't go catastrophically wrong (due to an oversight on my part). I call it "The Procrastinator." Probably quite a bit of room for improvement, but that is what the community is for.

And yes, I do include Tataree (though I don't always summon him).
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Coshade on June 18, 2015, 05:28:08 PM
@ACG - This is a really good way of thinking about it. I am excited to see what kind of plant spells come out in the future to make me want to use the Samara Tree. A lot of the spells you posted would go perfect with the Druid.

Do you use Tataree in your book? If you have a book would you mind posting it sometime? I'd love to take a look at it! I haven't really explored the Druid Samara builds a lot and would love to learn.

Sure. I have a build that I am hoping to possibly test tonight, which I will post assuming it doesn't go catastrophically wrong (due to an oversight on my part). I call it "The Procrastinator." Probably quite a bit of room for improvement, but that is what the community is for.

And yes, I do include Tataree (though I don't always summon him).

Looking forward to it! Good luck on your match  8)
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: fas723 on June 19, 2015, 09:28:22 AM
Heinz, the legendary flesh-eating Tomato!

I totally support this! As long as it got bloodthirsty +5.

Audrey II?

He is too cute. Now we are talking Heinz!
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: iNano78 on June 19, 2015, 10:48:09 AM
Ketchup enchantments!

Bloodthirsty Tomato could have an ability called...

Ketchup Mechanism: After a friendly creature action, if your mage has more damage than any other mage, you may sacrifice this creature.  If you do, remove damage from your mage until it has the same damage as the mage with the next most damage.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Coshade on June 19, 2015, 01:16:51 PM
Ketchup enchantments!

Bloodthirsty Tomato could have an ability called...

Ketchup Mechanism: After a friendly creature action, if your mage has more damage than any other mage, you may sacrifice this creature.  If you do, remove damage from your mage until it has the same damage as the mage with the next most damage.

Ahh punny :P
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Grimstringer on February 05, 2018, 06:21:55 AM
Some considerations of seedling pods:
Only one per zone combined with a 3 turn charge time means that you can't focus spawning into one zone like vinetree can. This suggests a strategy of using other zones to effect your vulnerable zones, like a thornlasher or a lifetree.

If you make a seedling pod, and no enemies are close to it, there is not a lot which that pod can do, especially if the zone exclusive slot of that zone is already filled. I don't like making a plant creature which has to move across 4 zones before it can do anything. Part of that is personal taste in that I don't like to include mobile plant creatures(other than ents) into my spellbooks since they seem anti-theme to me.

ideas for more plants:
-non-vine Trees which have arena-wide effect. It might be nice if, when they are treebonded, the effect increases. More incentive to not treebond a spawnpoint.
-a level 3 immobile non-vine plant which is a mix between a bridge troll and a vinesnapper.
-a non-vine plant incantation which effectively teleports(without the teleport subtype) target something(likely a plant object) to its zone. Others have made versions of this already on the forums.

sorry for the necro, but pods aren't one per zone, unless im missing something,

also renewing samara tree discussion? so, it banks your actions, you have many spawn points at the  same time regenerating mana,you can burst into a combo turn in a go i guess,and it can cast any plant conjuration or creature ,not just vines,(trees,elephant grass,mana flower,big tree guy,wall of thorns)  sounds pretty good to me
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Puddnhead on February 05, 2018, 07:33:14 AM
Conjurations follow the "unique name" attachment rule. You cannot have two objects with the same name attached to the same thing. Druid's vine tokens specify that the break this rule.

Problem with seedling pods is that they have a very specific spawn window that can be easily interrupted. I haven't played with them myself in quite a while, but I would love to showcase a unique and interesting Samara tree build.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Grimstringer on February 05, 2018, 07:41:26 AM
Conjurations follow the "unique name" attachment rule. You cannot have two objects with the same name attached to the same thing. Druid's vine tokens specify that the break this rule.

Problem with seedling pods is that they have a very specific spawn window that can be easily interrupted. I haven't played with them myself in quite a while, but I would love to showcase a unique and interesting Samara tree build.

yeah i thought about the conjuration and just checked 30 seconds ago before checking the reply , meh, this hurts the seeding pod,you have to spread em,have a unique rule for seeding pot heh.,yeah samara tree needs love, and druid academy or alternative must have some plant toys to use !
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: farkas1 on February 05, 2018, 08:11:25 AM
Yea a zone targeted conjuration can not have more than one copy.  Tanglevine and anything that does not target the zone can have more than one copy.  Vines like puddinhead said are the only exception I believe. 

This rule is often overlooked at least for me I overlooked it up until about a few weeks ago.  So sad for the seedling pods.

  I had a friend try this with minds eyes and thank god it does not work because it would wreak havoc.  Still a strong book but not like he was playing it. 
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Coshade on February 05, 2018, 12:04:04 PM
The way to use Samara tree is to create a damned if you, damned if you don't scenario. With Samara often players power economy to hard and that ends up losing them the game. Generally you will want more attack spells (and nature attack incantations) if you want the style to work.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: wtcannonjr on February 06, 2018, 05:59:14 AM
i have found Samara Tree builds useful in Domination style games since the opponent has to decide whether to attack a Seedling Pod or make progress on killing a Guardian. With a quick cast and a Spawnpoint the Druid can lay down up to two Pod's a turn while maintaining their full action for another purpose.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: DaveW on February 06, 2018, 10:09:23 AM
I thought that since zones were not objects, you could target the same zone with more than one. You can put more than one of the same creature in the same zone... why not seedling pods?
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Puddnhead on February 06, 2018, 11:08:43 AM
I thought that since zones were not objects, you could target the same zone with more than one. You can put more than one of the same creature in the same zone... why not seedling pods?

Creatures are not "attached" to the zone.  Conjurations are.  Also, you can't have more than one Hydrothermal Vent attached to the same zone.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: DaveW on February 07, 2018, 06:52:47 PM
I thought that since zones were not objects, you could target the same zone with more than one. You can put more than one of the same creature in the same zone... why not seedling pods?

Creatures are not "attached" to the zone.  Conjurations are.  Also, you can't have more than one Hydrothermal Vent attached to the same zone.

What allows more than one vine marker in a zone? They are conjurations also... are they not attached to the zone?
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Kharhaz on February 07, 2018, 07:27:28 PM
I thought that since zones were not objects, you could target the same zone with more than one. You can put more than one of the same creature in the same zone... why not seedling pods?

Creatures are not "attached" to the zone.  Conjurations are.  Also, you can't have more than one Hydrothermal Vent attached to the same zone.

What allows more than one vine marker in a zone? They are conjurations also... are they not attached to the zone?


The vine markers allow more than one instance per zone

Vine Markers (Game Marker)
Vine markers are a Living conjuration with 1 life, no armor, and they cannot gain armor. Vine markers hinder enemy non-Flying creatures. Any amount of damage will destroy a Vine Marker, regardless of its total life. They canít be targeted by ranged attacks. ***Any number of Vine markers can occupy a zone.*** As the Druid, or a familiar or tree spawnpoint she controls, casts a vine spell, you can destroy a target Vine marker she controls as an additional cost to cast that spell. If you do, you may ignore the range of that spell to target that Vine markerís zone, an object in that Vine markerís zone, or a border of that Vine markerís zone. That vine spell must have a legal target. If two or more Druids are playing, each should use a different side of the Vine marker to distinguish ownership.
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: Grimstringer on March 01, 2018, 01:19:44 PM
I actually tried samara  vs an inexpierienced friend (well i am one too ) and i really like it, the mana advantage and action saving was great

the bad things were   ,easy to kill the pods,and not possible to use them in non deployment phase (cast creatures mostly at start of turn, having them vulnerable for an entire turn) , slow and commiting

good things, many summons in a turn, huge mana advantage , i liked using the pod , destroying it and putting another one in it's place in the same deployment face, value  :P,the zone restriction isnt that must of a drawback in the end


i liked it :)
Title: Re: Samara Tree (and seedling pod) thoughts
Post by: wtcannonjr on March 02, 2018, 06:29:15 AM
I actually tried samara  vs an inexpierienced friend (well i am one too ) and i really like it, the mana advantage and action saving was great

the bad things were   ,easy to kill the pods,and not possible to use them in non deployment phase (cast creatures mostly at start of turn, having them vulnerable for an entire turn) , slow and commiting

good things, many summons in a turn, huge mana advantage , i liked using the pod , destroying it and putting another one in it's place in the same deployment face, value  :P,the zone restriction isnt that must of a drawback in the end


i liked it :)

Once the Etherian Lifetree is in play the Pods have a little more staying power. :)