Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: DaveW on June 25, 2015, 11:39:35 AM

Title: Target = Arena
Post by: DaveW on June 25, 2015, 11:39:35 AM
I was thinking about the Gate to Hell spell. Someone said that opening it targets the Arena now instead of having a range of two zones as I had played it before. In the past, zones affected by the opening of the Gate were restricted to only those to which there was line of sight (due to targeting rules, which I learned after discussion here).

Is this the case now? In other words, must there be a line of sight from the Gate to each zone in the arena that it affects, even with the target being the entire Arena?

If so, how does this affect Renewing Rain? Does RR affect zones that are outside LoS to the caster?

Would Rolling Fog similarly limit the scope of these spells?

My guess (FWIW) is that when a spell targets the Arena, individual Zones and individual Objects are not themselves targeted... so you would never need LoS except to a small portion of the Arena perhaps... e.g. the zone you are in)... but I would like to know what those who know better than I do say about this. I can think of reasons why the ruling could be in either direction.

If these is a rule on targeting the Arena, I can't find it... so thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: iNano78 on June 25, 2015, 12:09:52 PM
Spells that target the arena (like Call of the Wild) usually don't need LoS to any objects (e.g. creatures) that they affect.  However, I haven't seen the new printing of Gate to Hell so can't comment on exactly how it works.
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: Zuberi on June 25, 2015, 02:42:24 PM
There's a difference between targeting something and affecting something. You don't need line of sight to have an effect on an object. It's similar to how you can affect an invisible creature with a zone attack. Thus, for arena effects you generally just need to target the arena and then everything in the arena is affected. You don't have to target everything individually.
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: DaveW on June 25, 2015, 03:17:58 PM
There's a difference between targeting something and affecting something. You don't need line of sight to have an effect on an object. It's similar to how you can affect an invisible creature with a zone attack. Thus, for arena effects you generally just need to target the arena and then everything in the arena is affected. You don't have to target everything individually.

True enough... but isn't opening the Gate to Hell an attack? In all attacks, something has to be targeted.
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: iNano78 on June 25, 2015, 03:21:59 PM
Can someone with the new printing of the core set please type out or post an image of the new card text on Gate to Hell?  That would make discussion a lot easier.  I've heard that the range of Gate to Hell's attack has changed from "within 2 zones" to "the whole arena" but don't know how it is worded.

Based on the old wording (seen here), it seems that none of the creatures being attacked are actually targeted.
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: Lord0fWinter on June 25, 2015, 03:45:46 PM
"All demon creatures gain melee +1. Gate to Hell enters play with a "Closed" token. Once per game, as a full action, you may pay 12 mana to flip the token to the "Opened" side and make the above attack against each non-flying creature in the Arena. Once opened, whenever you, or a spawnpoint or familiar you control, summon a Demon creature, you may place it in the Gate's zone."
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: Zuberi on June 25, 2015, 04:20:12 PM
Quote from: DaveW
True enough... but isn't opening the Gate to Hell an attack? In all attacks, something has to be targeted.

Not so. Again, I'll refer to the Invisible trait as an example, which says it can not be targeted but it can still be affected by attacks which don't target it directly (such as Zone attacks). That's what we have with Gate to Hell, an attack which is not targeting any objects directly but rather is affecting the entire arena.
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: DaveW on June 25, 2015, 04:51:21 PM
This was my argument in the old wording Gate to Hell days... that everything within two zones was attacked. It was shot down here (I have no idea in which thread), as I was told that there had to be LoS from the Gate to each zone to be able to affect that zone. Has that old ruling changed? If not, then how can this attack be any different. (I was referred to the attack sequence back then, if I recall correctly.)

The card says "make the above attack..." so it is an attack.

It looks to me like the only thing that is changed is that this attack is now without any range limitation. You still should need LoS to make the attack upon opening the gate... just like before... no?
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: iNano78 on June 25, 2015, 04:52:51 PM
Quote from: DaveW
True enough... but isn't opening the Gate to Hell an attack? In all attacks, something has to be targeted.

Not so. Again, I'll refer to the Invisible trait as an example, which says it can not be targeted but it can still be affected by attacks which don't target it directly (such as Zone attacks). That's what we have with Gate to Hell, an attack which is not targeting any objects directly but rather is affecting the entire arena.

I think his point is that even in your Invisible Stalker example, a zone attack targets a zone.  If the source of the attack (e.g. creature, mage or Wizard's Tower, etc) doesn't have correct range and LoS to the zone, then the attack won't work.

However, in Gate to Hell's case, the attacks really don't target anything.  Every non-flying creature in the arena is attacked, no targeting necessary.
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: Zuberi on June 25, 2015, 08:29:51 PM
Hmm, while I still stand by the possibility of an attack targeting the arena, and thus hitting everything in it regardless of line of sight, after rereading Lordofwinters text I am inclined to agree that the previous gate to hell ruling still applies like davew suggests. The card is not written that it targets the arena, but rather that it targets all non flying creatures in the arena. It must therefore be able to target those creatures. I apologize for my mistake.
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: Zuberi on June 25, 2015, 08:50:55 PM
The question at hand basically is what needs to be targeted. If it targets each zone within 2 then it needs line of sight to those zones. If it targets each creature within 2 then it needs line of sight to those creatures. If it targets the arena, then it needs line of sight to the arena, which it has as long as it is in the arena. But if it targets creatures within the arena, then it needs line of sight to those creatures.

I don't have the updated card in my possession, but lordofwinters post makes it sound like it targets the creatures. I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: adanaz on June 25, 2015, 09:28:11 PM
I picked up the new Arena core set last week and have taken this picture for the good of this thread.  LordOfWinter had done enough with the card text, but for all of those who are visually inclined, behold the attachment!

Disclaimer:

Sorry, I don't know how to insert the image into the post.  Also, the image is huge - I haven't the time to resize etc.  It is readable though, I guess that is what matters.....

Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: sIKE on June 25, 2015, 10:28:58 PM
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/405/18543996503_0a768df292_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: DaveW on June 25, 2015, 11:40:25 PM
The question at hand basically is what needs to be targeted. If it targets each zone within 2 then it needs line of sight to those zones. If it targets each creature within 2 then it needs line of sight to those creatures. If it targets the arena, then it needs line of sight to the arena, which it has as long as it is in the arena. But if it targets creatures within the arena, then it needs line of sight to those creatures.

I don't have the updated card in my possession, but lordofwinters post makes it sound like it targets the creatures. I could be wrong.

My take from all of this is that, since opening the Gate attacks Creatures (per the wording in the text of the card), there needs to be LoS to each Creature attacked when the Gate is opened (due to the generic attack sequence wording).

Does anyone see this differently? That's how it worked before.

Back to my original questions... it seems that the other spells mentioned in this thread that target the Arena are unaffected by LoS, since none of them are attack spells.
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: sIKE on June 26, 2015, 12:42:20 AM
All other Arena wide effects do not need LoS:

Akiro's Battle Cry
Call of the Wild
Renewing Rain
Unholy Resurgence
V'Tar Suppression
Zombie Frenzy

However all of these cards specifically target the arena as a part of casting and resolving the spell. Gate to Hell attack comes from an effect once it is activated and doesn't use the word "All" like all of the above spells do. I am inclined to believe that LoS is needed, but wouldn't at all be surprised if Arcanus's intent was not to require  LoS. 
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: Sailor Vulcan on June 26, 2015, 09:22:48 AM
Or maybe it's to prevent banished creatures from being attacked?
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: Zuberi on June 26, 2015, 09:34:20 AM
Quote from: DaveW
Back to my original questions... it seems that the other spells mentioned in this thread that target the Arena are unaffected by LoS, since none of them are attack spells.

It's not the fact that they're not attack spells that matters. Attack spells could potentially also target the arena and then ignore LoS on the objects effected. The important thing is that those spells target the Arena and this one doesn't sound like it does. Targeting all non-flying creatures within the Arena is different than targeting the Arena itself.
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: iNano78 on June 26, 2015, 10:39:58 AM
Or maybe it's to prevent banished creatures from being attacked?

Banished creatures are immune to Gate to Hell regardless.  First, they're "out of the Arena"; second, "while out of the arena... it can only be affected by attached spells, conditions, or its own traits and abilities."

Quote from: DaveW
Back to my original questions... it seems that the other spells mentioned in this thread that target the Arena are unaffected by LoS, since none of them are attack spells.

It's not the fact that they're not attack spells that matters. Attack spells could potentially also target the arena and then ignore LoS on the objects effected. The important thing is that those spells target the Arena and this one doesn't sound like it does. Targeting all non-flying creatures within the Arena is different than targeting the Arena itself.

As a general rule, if the word "target" isn't in the card text, then the spell doesn't require LoS.  See the difference between the teleport abilities of Wildfire Imp, and Blue Gremlin or Grey Wraith or Teleport Trap as examples of when LoS does/doesn't matter.  Since Gate to Hell doesn't use the word "target" anywhere in its text, it seems that LoS is not required.  If the creature is in the Arena (e.g. isn't Banished or otherwise out of the Arena), then it gets attacked.  At least, that's how I read it, in an attempt to be consistent with precedent from the FAQ on other cards that don't use the word "target."
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: Zuberi on June 26, 2015, 11:29:00 AM
attacks, unlike other effects, innately require a target, like davew mentioned, according to the rules for declaring an attack. So, the question of what is being targeted by the attack is important. The two possibilities are either the arena, which then damages creatures in the arena similar to a zone attack regardless of los, or creatures within the arena individually, requiring LOS to those individuals. I don't think it is perfectly clear which is the case and would like official word.
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: iNano78 on June 26, 2015, 11:45:23 AM
attacks, unlike other effects, innately require a target, like davew mentioned, according to the rules for declaring an attack. So, the question of what is being targeted by the attack is important. The two possibilities are either the arena, which then damages creatures in the arena similar to a zone attack regardless of los, or creatures within the arena individually, requiring LOS to those individuals. I don't think it is perfectly clear which is the case and would like official word.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not convinced that attacks innately require a target.  For instance, doesn't Hellfire Trap work against an invisible Invisible Stalker?  The Trap doesn't say "target" with regards to its attack (it does say "target" regarding the zone for the purposes of casting the enchantment itself, but not for the attack), so my understanding is it will attack "that creature" that triggered it without "targeting" it.

*edit* By the way, I would also like to see an official ruling.  And I hope that the attack doesn't need LoS, because 24 mana (in two 12-mana bunches) for an Epic demonic version of Garrison Post + Tooth & Nail (assuming Melee +1 is about equivalent to Piercing +1) is still pretty expensive if the attack only hits non-flyers within LoS.  Otherwise the best response to a Gate to Hell would be to stick a Wall of Earth or Fog Bank in front of it - or perhaps cast Rolling Fog on the turn you expect your opponent might open the gate.  Besides, even if it does hit EVERY non-flyiing creature in the arena, Renewing Rain largely undoes the damage from the attack - at least for creatures that survived.
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: Zuberi on June 26, 2015, 03:38:51 PM
My comments about attacks requiring a target stems from two places. First, that the rulebook says you must choose a legal target during the declare attack step, and second from >>>this post<<< (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=14489.msg40834#msg40834) in which Shad0w supports the idea of a target being required.

You do bring up an interesting point about Hellfire Trap, though. I can not find any official word on how the trap works with regards to needing to target the creature. It is not mentioned in the Rules Supplement, nor could I find it with a forum search. The only thing my search pulled up was a discussion you had previously regarding teleport trap not needing to target.

So, if the idea that attacks innately need a target is accurate, then we may end up with an issue where Hellfire Trap actually is not able to attack the Invisible Stalker, and is instead revealed without effect. That doesn't sound right to me, but I can't think of another way it would work without eliminating the need for attacks to have a target.

So, now I want an official word on both Gate to Hell and Hellfire Trap, lol. This question has gotten a lot more interesting than it first appeared.
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: DaveW on July 12, 2015, 09:22:18 PM
It has been a couple of weeks without resolution here, so I thought I would bring this up again. We would like official word on these.

Two questions exist, from what I can see:
1) Does the attack from the new wording on the Gate to Hell spell require LoS?
2) What happens when an invisible Invisible Stalker enters a zone with a Hellfire Trap, and why?
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: sIKE on July 12, 2015, 09:31:24 PM
2) What happens when an invisible Invisible Stalker enters a zone with a Hellfire Trap, and why?
The Hellfire Trap feels a disturbance in the force and triggers  :o
Title: Re: Target = Arena
Post by: Kharhaz on July 13, 2015, 02:56:02 PM
Technically:

LINE OF SIGHT
In order to cast a spell or make a ranged attack against a target, you must have a clear “line of sight” (called  “LoS”  for  short).  Normally,  a  creature  has LoS to the entire game board, even into zones that are out of range. But, some walls block LoS. You cannot cast a spell or make a ranged attack through a wall that blocks LoS.


This was ruled to include spell effects as well (as per the ruling on the old Gate).


It would have been even better if they included a ranged or zone symbol on the attack bar on Gate to Hell.

If you want LoS to block the attack:
Put a ranged symbol. A ranged attack symbol always requires LoS.

If you don't want LoS to block the attack:
Put a zone attack symbol. reword to "Gate to hell makes the above zone attack vs each zone."

Neither of these approaches was taken however, and by the almost unaltered wording of the card text (unless there is a higher up that says otherwise:

"against each non flying creature up to 2 zones away" - old

"against each non flying creature in the arena" - new

the range is the only thing that changes and not the targeting so you need LoS still. (unfortunately)

If I were to make a wager I would bet this will be overturned to not require LoS but we will see.