Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => Alternative Play => Topic started by: Wildhorn on January 28, 2016, 01:02:10 AM

Title: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Wildhorn on January 28, 2016, 01:02:10 AM
Me and my friend like Domination mode, but found out 3 "problems".

Problem #1: Since most Domination spellbook are meant to gain and defend orbs, less points are allocated for the mage defense. So this mean a very aggresive mage get an advantage to simply rush the ennemy mage to try to kill him, which kinda defeat the purpose of Domination.

Problem #2: Needing a set amount of V'Tar to win means as soon as someone get a 1 V'Tar advantage over his opponent (which often happens to be whoever gain control first of an orb and drop Gallaxus), all he needs to do is to turtle up an even number of orbs than his opponent and wait for the win.

Problem #3: We bought Mage Wars playmat and Domination doesn't use them. So they are kinda wasted money for that purpose.

So we tried to come up with different ideas to fix these problems and I came up with this idea:

Dominate The Old Arena

Using the old 3x4 arena:

S1TO
2OO2
OT1S

S: Starting zones.
O: Orb zones. Usslak in corners and Sslak in middles.
T: Tunnel zones.
1 and 2: The player who lost initiative place the Spike Traps tokens in either zones 1 or 2.

The goal is not to score a certain amount of VíTar, but to gain a certain amount of VíTar over your opponent. Every round, for every extra VíTar that you gain over your opponent, place a VíTar token on your mage reference card. If you have 4 or more VíTar token on your mage reference card, you win the game. The amount of V'Tar advantage needed to win can be adjusted depending of how long you want the game to last.

You can spend VíTar during the deployment phase to summon a Sslak or an Usslak on a VíTar Orb that you control. A Sslak cost 7 VíTar and an Usslak cost 11 VíTar. This is to give V'Tar a purpose and to help to secure your position when you push for the opponent orbs.


Now, how it solves the 3 problems?

Solution #1: By requiring a V'Tar advantage instead of a fixed amount, an opponent can't simply ignore them to rush you because the chance that they kill you within 4 turns once you control 1 orb are pretty slim. So they have to care about orbs too in the early game.

Solution #2: By requiring a V'Tar advantage instead of a fixed amount, this means you need to keep your advantage for several rounds instead to simply needing that single extra V'Tar to win.

Solution #3: It use the old arena, so we can use the MW playmats.


We didn't test it out yet, but once we do, I will give out the results. Just wanted to share in case someone wanted to try it and give me feedback about it.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: wtcannonjr on January 30, 2016, 06:34:04 AM
Some thoughts about your problem definitions.

Problem 1 - we don't see this as a problem, but another strategy that must be considered when designing a spellbook. So a mage must make additional tradeoffs in a spellbook design made for a Domination style battle. Having two ways to win a match rather than one adds more decisions to both the design stage and the battle stage of a match. This is what we see as the purpose of playing Domination style.

Problem 2 - we haven't experienced this as our matches often see swings in the v'tar rate based on turning off an opponents orbs while maintaining yours. Elusive, Doublestrike, and Whirling Strike are handing traits/spells to use in gaining tactical advantage. This can often happen if one mage isn't keeping pace with summoning creatures since each one adds an extra action to a side. We also see focused efforts to take out an opponents Galaxxus. I agree that gaining and keeping an advantage with the orbs is one strategy to winning in Domination matches. Having strategies to overcoming a turtle is one approach. This may mean having a way to deal with walls for example.

Problem 3 - I agree that current maps don't use the original arena so your ideas for new scenarios is the right approach. I can see scenarios where an Arena is multi-roomed with corridors like a dungeon setting. Battlegrounds allows players to create new scenarios using tiles and our original arena boards in unique combinations. So bring on new scenarios! This to me is the purpose behind Battlegrounds style play. Creating new arenas to test our mages with new challenges.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: iNano78 on January 30, 2016, 12:27:21 PM
1. Rushing is risky. If your opponent does have armour or ways to keep the pressure off, then they'll easily win by V'tar. It can be done in 2 player but is almost impossible (or at best makes you a "kingmaker") in multiplayer. But the risk of someone rushing at least means you need to be prepared (eg pack a Barkskin or Regrowth Belt of Heal or whatever).

2. We've had several come-from-behind V'tar victories. Again, multiplayer fixes it somewhat, as 2+ players can team up on the leader and try to keep her from achieving victory. Harder in 2 player matches - but still possible. We recently had a 2-on-2 team domination match with 16 V'tar goal, and one team got off to a +3 V'tar lead, but the opposing team clawed back, using Akiro's Hammer to take out Galaxxus, etc, and we had to call it when tied at 16 each because the store was closing. Your +4 differential would have been an impossible goal in that match.

3. We don't always play Domination. We always play Donination when we have 3 players, and sometimes when we have 2 or 4, but we play Arena with even player counts occasionally - and then the mat(s) come out. Mats are still great for Arena and Academy.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Wildhorn on January 31, 2016, 04:52:51 PM
1. Rushing is risky. If your opponent does have armour or ways to keep the pressure off, then they'll easily win by V'tar. It can be done in 2 player but is almost impossible (or at best makes you a "kingmaker") in multiplayer. But the risk of someone rushing at least means you need to be prepared (eg pack a Barkskin or Regrowth Belt of Heal or whatever).

2. We've had several come-from-behind V'tar victories. Again, multiplayer fixes it somewhat, as 2+ players can team up on the leader and try to keep her from achieving victory. Harder in 2 player matches - but still possible. We recently had a 2-on-2 team domination match with 16 V'tar goal, and one team got off to a +3 V'tar lead, but the opposing team clawed back, using Akiro's Hammer to take out Galaxxus, etc, and we had to call it when tied at 16 each because the store was closing. Your +4 differential would have been an impossible goal in that match.

3. We don't always play Domination. We always play Donination when we have 3 players, and sometimes when we have 2 or 4, but we play Arena with even player counts occasionally - and then the mat(s) come out. Mats are still great for Arena and Academy.

1- The thing is my first round is more economy oriented because Domination is more oriented that way. But then on 2nd turn I have a Forcemaster in my face. So I am a bit behind on mana to deal with him and then all my stuff need to be oriented to save my ass and kill him. I just can't focus anything on the V'Tar else the FM will give an end to my life.

It doesn't mean I automatically lose, but since a part of the my spellbook is oriented to deal with the Domination part, it has less tool to deal with the classic Arena part. So I feel it is a disadvantage to play Domination in Domination if one player is not playing it.

We consider it a problem because why bother making a spellbook for Domination if a normal spellbook will play just as good if not better.

2- We only play 1v1. So all this is about 1v1. And in 1v1, this is a real problem. With my warlord I usually can drop a Galaxxus on the 3rd turn, one turn before my opponent. From there, I just make sure to have the same amount of orbs than him and it is GG.

3- Yeah, I discovered that recently that using the mats for Academy is fantastic. Make it easier to pickup cards and move things around.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: jhaelen on February 01, 2016, 03:34:45 AM
So I feel it is a disadvantage to play Domination in Domination if one player is not playing it.
If that is truly the case, then you are right, and the Domination format, as it's currently designed doesn't work.

The advantage from having more V'Tar than your opponent must balance the potential advantage of a spellbook that chooses to ignore the V'Tars in favor of rushing the opponent mage. If that's not the case, Domination is dead in the water.

I'd definitely like to see more opinions on this.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Puddnhead on February 01, 2016, 08:50:42 AM
1) When you get V'tar each turn you can use it to gain mana OR to heal damage.  Remember to heal damage if you need to.
2) If your game is focused on gaining orbs try adding the spells that benefit from controlling orbs as you will get more bang for your mana than someone who is not "playing the game".
3) A large creature to get orbs for you can double as a useful guard.
4) Positional spells are very important don't leave home without them.
5) Having an alternate opening that's a little more defensive while not cramping your orb speed too much might be useful.

6) if your opponent is a straywood beastmaster forget your orb game and go and kill them as quickly as you can.   :-\
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Sailor Vulcan on February 01, 2016, 10:52:00 AM


6) if your opponent is a straywood beastmaster forget your orb game and go and kill them as quickly as you can.   :-\

Why?
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: sIKE on February 01, 2016, 11:02:39 AM


6) if your opponent is a straywood beastmaster forget your orb game and go and kill them as quickly as you can.   :-\

Why?
Cause he can spam animals like crazy......
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Mystery on February 01, 2016, 11:26:58 AM


6) if your opponent is a straywood beastmaster forget your orb game and go and kill them as quickly as you can.   :-\

Why?
Cause he can spam animals like crazy......


but you might have one earlier to keep the lead summon sweaping/double striking things, mind control those pets, get an altar of iron guard, etc
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: sIKE on February 01, 2016, 11:53:47 AM


6) if your opponent is a straywood beastmaster forget your orb game and go and kill them as quickly as you can.   :-\

Why?
Cause he can spam animals like crazy......


but you might have one earlier to keep the lead summon sweaping/double striking things, mind control those pets, get an altar of iron guard, etc
ofc there are counter measures, but that is the reason and the answer to the question.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Sailor Vulcan on February 01, 2016, 02:40:41 PM
I think there's a misconception about domination mode that should be cleared up. Swarming for the orbs and rushing the enemy mage are NOT the only ways to win. Using a buddy to try to get orbs quickly and summoning galaxxus can be quite effective, at least on Path of War map (which IMO might be the ONLY truly balanced official 1v1 domination map). Also, another thing you could do is only go after one orb and try to stop the enemy mage from controlling more orbs than you. One way to do this that I tried was using an earth wizard on the path of war map, destroy the nearest sslak and take control of its orb, and put bull endurance and turn to stone on the two sslaks your opponent isn't going for first. Use a gargoyle sentry to guard, summon your own galaxxus and destroy theirs. This way, rather than trying to get as many orbs as possible for yourself, you get one orb plus galaxxus and try to keep the enemy mage from controlling more. Then you can just tank them to domination victory.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Puddnhead on February 01, 2016, 04:04:51 PM


6) if your opponent is a straywood beastmaster forget your orb game and go and kill them as quickly as you can.   :-\

Why?
Cause he can spam animals like crazy......

Yes, this is the reason for my #6.  It was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but I find that the most obvious way to play domination with a straywood is to spam little creatures and take your opponent's orbs with action advantage while keeping yours safe in the same way.

I'm not saying there are no other ways to play the game just some tips on how to deal with the rusher...sometimes the rush is only countered by a better rush.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Wildhorn on February 03, 2016, 04:24:30 PM
1) When you get V'tar each turn you can use it to gain mana OR to heal damage.  Remember to heal damage if you need to.
2) If your game is focused on gaining orbs try adding the spells that benefit from controlling orbs as you will get more bang for your mana than someone who is not "playing the game".
3) A large creature to get orbs for you can double as a useful guard.
4) Positional spells are very important don't leave home without them.
5) Having an alternate opening that's a little more defensive while not cramping your orb speed too much might be useful.

6) if your opponent is a straywood beastmaster forget your orb game and go and kill them as quickly as you can.   :-\

You don't understand. The FM is in my face on turn 2. I control no orb yet. From there gaining control of an orb is out of question. I am playing to not die.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: sIKE on February 03, 2016, 04:30:21 PM
Prep a Wall of Thorns and a Force Push, this will get the FM out of your face real quick. if you can do it move so you can get LoS to the other side of the WoT and prep another Force Push during the 1st QC and do it again. It be a long time before you have a round 2 FM in your face again.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Wildhorn on February 03, 2016, 05:17:23 PM
Prep a Wall of Thorns and a Force Push, out of face real quick. if you can do it move so you can get LoS to the other side of the WoT and prep another Force Push during the 1st QC and do it again. It be a long time before you have a round 2 FM in your face again.

Now, imagine that you were preparing to play a Domination game. So you put down a spawnpoint + a mana generating thing, so no mana left after 1st turn. So you start your 2nd turn with 10 mana. No WoT combo for 2nd turn. And if he see you have 11 mana on 3rd turn, he will case an armor on himself.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Mystery on February 03, 2016, 06:10:16 PM
Prep a Wall of Thorns and a Force Push, out of face real quick. if you can do it move so you can get LoS to the other side of the WoT and prep another Force Push during the 1st QC and do it again. It be a long time before you have a round 2 FM in your face again.

Now, imagine that you were preparing to play a Domination game. So you put down a spawnpoint + a mana generating thing, so no mana left after 1st turn. So you start your 2nd turn with 10 mana. No WoT combo for 2nd turn. And if he see you have 11 mana on 3rd turn, he will case an armor on himself.

i feel spawnpoint and mana generating thing is most of the time the wrong thing to go. domination games believe it or not are often quite fast, people rush as they expect you to run few defenses, or rush the orb to get it faster than you. and that one-two vtar ahead is often quite strong. And at least always keep eagleclawboots and a thorn push to punish unprotected mages and or safe yourselfs, have some walls have teleports, vines, push the fm off ini and tanglevine/stranglevine him, qc astral anchor, then cast nullify and let your spawnpoint if you play it channel you something, do it in the right terrain etc....
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Puddnhead on February 03, 2016, 08:33:57 PM
1) When you get V'tar each turn you can use it to gain mana OR to heal damage.  Remember to heal damage if you need to.
2) If your game is focused on gaining orbs try adding the spells that benefit from controlling orbs as you will get more bang for your mana than someone who is not "playing the game".
3) A large creature to get orbs for you can double as a useful guard.
4) Positional spells are very important don't leave home without them.
5) Having an alternate opening that's a little more defensive while not cramping your orb speed too much might be useful.

6) if your opponent is a straywood beastmaster forget your orb game and go and kill them as quickly as you can.   :-\

You don't understand. The FM is in my face on turn 2. I control no orb yet. From there gaining control of an orb is out of question. I am playing to not die.

Use the spawnpoint to put out a creature and cast Defend.  If you have any remaining mana, put on some armor (Brace Yourself is excellent for this) or force push the FM.

If you can save enough mana to wall her into a corner you will completely waste at least one of her turns.

Cast astral anchor in your zone and then teleport away.  Reveal astral anchor when she tries to follow you.

If she teleported in on turn 1 then she has a maximum of 1 other spell on her.  Destroy it...or cast a block.

If she teleports in on turn two you should know what her other two spells are, bearstrength or galvitar.  If galvitar and you only have 10 mana use Disarm and then Crumble it next turn.

Don't leave home without at least some defensive stuff.  Even a Cobra Reflexes is something.  Two Brace Yourself is two spellbook points.

If you're facing a Forcemaster then forgoe the spawnpoint and just hardcast a heavy hitter.  If she doesn't rush, use the creature to take an orb.


Get creative and never give up trying.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Wildhorn on February 04, 2016, 05:27:59 AM
1) When you get V'tar each turn you can use it to gain mana OR to heal damage.  Remember to heal damage if you need to.
2) If your game is focused on gaining orbs try adding the spells that benefit from controlling orbs as you will get more bang for your mana than someone who is not "playing the game".
3) A large creature to get orbs for you can double as a useful guard.
4) Positional spells are very important don't leave home without them.
5) Having an alternate opening that's a little more defensive while not cramping your orb speed too much might be useful.

6) if your opponent is a straywood beastmaster forget your orb game and go and kill them as quickly as you can.   :-\

You don't understand. The FM is in my face on turn 2. I control no orb yet. From there gaining control of an orb is out of question. I am playing to not die.

Use the spawnpoint to put out a creature and cast Defend.  If you have any remaining mana, put on some armor (Brace Yourself is excellent for this) or force push the FM.

If you can save enough mana to wall her into a corner you will completely waste at least one of her turns.

Cast astral anchor in your zone and then teleport away.  Reveal astral anchor when she tries to follow you.

If she teleported in on turn 1 then she has a maximum of 1 other spell on her.  Destroy it...or cast a block.

If she teleports in on turn two you should know what her other two spells are, bearstrength or galvitar.  If galvitar and you only have 10 mana use Disarm and then Crumble it next turn.

Don't leave home without at least some defensive stuff.  Even a Cobra Reflexes is something.  Two Brace Yourself is two spellbook points.

If you're facing a Forcemaster then forgoe the spawnpoint and just hardcast a heavy hitter.  If she doesn't rush, use the creature to take an orb.


Get creative and never give up trying.

I know how to deal with a FM. This is not the problem. The problem is that at this point, we are no more playing a Domination game, but a normal Arena game. So why bother in first place to play Domination if it end up like this?
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Mystery on February 04, 2016, 05:43:34 AM
cause domination includes both options killing and v'tar win, you can use the undying mages variant if you want to exclude the killing winning condition done.

I have played probably 15domination game since its done, two games ended by mage death, both were with forcemaster one time i played second time the other played it, both times the forcemaster lost.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: wtcannonjr on February 04, 2016, 05:49:36 AM
 

I know how to deal with a FM. This is not the problem. The problem is that at this point, we are no more playing a Domination game, but a normal Arena game. So why bother in first place to play Domination if it end up like this?

This isn't the ending it sounds like the opening.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: iNano78 on February 04, 2016, 06:19:50 AM
Part of the fun of Domination is the threat/risk that your opponent(s) might suddenly turn on you and kill your Mage. If it were strictly "capture the orbs while being friendly with each other" it wouldn't be nearly as fun. Nobody in our group has won by killing the other mage(s) - yet - but there have been some very close calls and definitely times where the lead has changed because a Mage had to armour up and heal, lost most/all of their creatures, and lost their orbs.

Again, we mostly play 3 or 4 player Domination. I think that's where Domination really shines. Arena is great for 2 (or mini-tournaments of head-to-head Arena matches).
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Wildhorn on February 04, 2016, 07:00:53 AM
Part of the fun of Domination is the threat/risk that your opponent(s) might suddenly turn on you and kill your Mage. If it were strictly "capture the orbs while being friendly with each other" it wouldn't be nearly as fun. Nobody in our group has won by killing the other mage(s) - yet - but there have been some very close calls and definitely times where the lead has changed because a Mage had to armour up and heal, lost most/all of their creatures, and lost their orbs.

Again, we mostly play 3 or 4 player Domination. I think that's where Domination really shines. Arena is great for 2 (or mini-tournaments of head-to-head Arena matches).

Of course, it should not be friendly and all. But if one doesn't bother with orbs at all and the other can't even start to get orbs because of the other mage bashing his face, there is no more domination in domination.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Mystery on February 04, 2016, 08:04:09 AM
Part of the fun of Domination is the threat/risk that your opponent(s) might suddenly turn on you and kill your Mage. If it were strictly "capture the orbs while being friendly with each other" it wouldn't be nearly as fun. Nobody in our group has won by killing the other mage(s) - yet - but there have been some very close calls and definitely times where the lead has changed because a Mage had to armour up and heal, lost most/all of their creatures, and lost their orbs.

Again, we mostly play 3 or 4 player Domination. I think that's where Domination really shines. Arena is great for 2 (or mini-tournaments of head-to-head Arena matches).

Of course, it should not be friendly and all. But if one doesn't bother with orbs at all and the other can't even start to get orbs because of the other mage bashing his face, there is no more domination in domination.

it depends in multiplayer you simple have no time, even if you play domination in two players and you are not rushed if you start with spawnpoint and defend or what you just said, there is a high probablity that the other mage already has 1 vtar in round 3 and galaxus out and probably will have 3v'tar beginning of round 4 vs your one. You need to adjust a bit to the map, when its a 9 v'tar winning map, probably your spawnpoint wont win you the game if you dont directly fast deny the oponent v'tar. If its 12+ you can probably gain much more orbs later to overcome the early lacking behind.
Title: Re: Dominate the Old Arena
Post by: Wildhorn on March 27, 2016, 06:33:31 PM
So we tested it today. My friend was using a rushing strategy which ended up being the same as before. A total domination, without using the orbs.

So for our 2nd game we tried something. We used the Academy 2 rounds of no-aggression, no-movement. Basically, all creatures, inclusing our mages, were Rooted for the first 2 rounds.

This really changed the thing. I badly played (been so long since we played Mage Wars Arena, we were rusty) and still lost, but if I had used the proper strategy, it would have been a very different game. Having 2 rounds to be able to summon some creatures to defend yourself before the enemy mage get in your way really helps.

So next time, we gonna build spellbooks based on the fact that we have 2 rounds to prepare and see how it goes.