Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => Spells => Topic started by: Borg on September 06, 2016, 01:15:40 PM

Title: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Borg on September 06, 2016, 01:15:40 PM
Suppose your Timber Wolf goes down and you've put a Second Chance on him but your opponent has put a Rise Again on him.

Which one works ?

I'm guessing the player who has initiative gets to go first and the other enchantment fizzles ... or not ?
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Halewijn on September 06, 2016, 01:41:30 PM
1) the person owning the object to affected by the enchantment can act first.

2) If this affects both players, the player with initiative can go first.

Since you own the timber wolf, your second chance can go first. 
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: ClockWork on November 10, 2016, 05:43:41 AM
Cast Rise again on this thread here....

1) the person owning the object to affected by the enchantment can act first.

Sorry to doubt, but that doesn't seem right . I'm under the impression if both players want to reveal at the same time they do so in initiative order.

Where can i find the rule your referring too?
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Halewijn on November 10, 2016, 06:04:58 AM
Core rules:

Quote
You always choose the order in which events that affect your creatures and objects occur during this phase. In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order

"This phase" is the upkeep phase here. I thought this was a general rule and not only during upkeep, but now you make me doubt and I think you might be right.
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: wtcannonjr on November 10, 2016, 06:09:53 AM
Core rules:

Quote
You always choose the order in which events that affect your creatures and objects occur during this phase. In the rare case that a timing issue occurs, the player with the initiative decides the order

"This phase" is the upkeep phase here. I thought this was a general rule and not only during upkeep, but now you make me doubt and I think you might be right.

Clockwork is correct. See the rule section on Enchantments. It describes the sequence of revealing as initiative player first, then opponent. This sequence can repeat until both players no longer decide to reveal.
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: jacksmack on November 10, 2016, 06:56:58 AM
First of all the text on these 2 cards are not the same.

Rise again must be revealed before the creature is destroyed - this usually means before the apply damage step.
It simply has no effect while its face down - and in case we get something like bim shalla that 'instantly' deals damage that cannot be responded to, then this card has no chance of being revealled.

Second chance on the other hand... the text specifically states that when this create is destroyed then you may reveal second chance.
If you reveal second chance while the creature is alive: "You may immediately summon the creature into the zone it was destroyed.
Because you cannot immediately do it (its not destroyed) the enchantment will have no effect.


So what we are up against is the following:
A creature receives a lethal hit.
Before the damage applied step the necromancer reveals Rise Again.
Next is damage applies step. Creature dies here. And now Paladin reveals Second chance which he can only do if he has initiative because of conflicting timing.
Second chance is resolved and the paladin is happy with his re-summoned creature.
Necromancer's turn to resolve Rise Again....he can still pay the mana cost but it will have no effect because there is no longer a creature to put into play and give a zombie condition.

If the necromancer had intiative there would be no time for the paladin to reveal as they both trigger on *when this creature is destroyed*
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: jacksmack on November 10, 2016, 06:58:38 AM
Give me that banana sticker - its been a while!
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Halewijn on November 10, 2016, 07:20:56 AM
Giving banana stickers is something that should always be consensual. If Laddinfance does not want to give a banana sticker, you should not force him to. Also, it is not because Laddinfance has given you banana stickers in the past that he wants to give banana stickers to you in the future, nor does it oblige him to ever do it again.

Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: ClockWork on November 10, 2016, 08:04:22 AM
Won't Rise again always trump because it must be revealed before the creature dies and therefore is is always "time-stamped" before Second Chance is even allowed to be revealed.

Enchantments execute in the order revealed?
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: jacksmack on November 10, 2016, 08:47:33 AM
I doubt timestamps are relevant here.

Its used to determine stuff like bull endurance vs deathlock and flying vs maimwings etc.


Sometimes an enchantment can result in an attack, this allow other enchantments (rhino hide for instance) to be revealed and take effect before you are fully done resolving the first enchantment that provide the attack.
(ie. rhino hide do offer some protection against the trap.)


Rise again executes in a manner that its waiting for a trigger. This trigger could happen several rounds later and in the mean time we can reveal a bear strength and benefit from it. We do not have to wait for Rise Again to *finish resolving* by having its trigger condition met for Bear Strength to take effect.
The trigger from Rise Again trigger is excately the same for second chance so we need to determine what effect takes place first with initiative.
Title: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Sailor Vulcan on November 10, 2016, 08:53:32 AM
Giving banana stickers is something that should always be consensual. If Laddinfance does not want to give a banana sticker, you should not force him to. Also, it is not because Laddinfance has given you banana stickers in the past that he wants to give banana stickers to you in the future, nor does it oblige him to ever do it again.

The claw is our master. It decides who shall get a banana sticker, and who shall not...


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Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Laddinfance on November 10, 2016, 02:02:12 PM
You're welcome.
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: jacksmack on November 10, 2016, 06:53:42 PM
whoop whoop.
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: werner on March 19, 2018, 01:28:18 PM
Was Second Chance already errata'd? Because my copy says nothing about "Reveal on Destroyed." The Reveal Cost-Circle isn't even RED (must reveal). As reading the card, it would appear you need to manually reveal Second Chance BEFORE uninterruptible dmg occurs.
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: iNano78 on March 19, 2018, 05:54:09 PM
Was Second Chance already errata'd? Because my copy says nothing about "Reveal on Destroyed." The Reveal Cost-Circle isn't even RED (must reveal). As reading the card, it would appear you need to manually reveal Second Chance BEFORE uninterruptible dmg occurs.

Should look like the image at http://www.spellbookbuilder.com/ (http://www.spellbookbuilder.com/). Pretty sure there has only been one printing of Academy Priestess...
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Arkdeniz on March 19, 2018, 07:46:53 PM
I checked my card against the spellbookbuilder image, and it is different in the same way as werner suggests.
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: iNano78 on March 19, 2018, 07:59:13 PM
I guess you could reveal it after the roll dice step, before apply damage and effects.
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Kharhaz on March 19, 2018, 08:04:25 PM
I checked my card against the spellbookbuilder image, and it is different in the same way as werner suggests.

I think there was a promo version? Maybe..... /shrug
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Arkdeniz on March 19, 2018, 09:55:04 PM
Here is my card's text:

"When this creature is destroyed, you may pay its casting cost. If you do, summon it into the zone in which it was destroyed after the current action resolves."

Here is the version in the spellbookbuilder:

"When this creature is destroyed you may reveal Second Chance. You may immediately summon this creature into the zone in which it was destroyed as a free action."

There is nothing in the current version of the Rules Supplement about this change. And certainly my card's wording, as with werner's, suggests that it needs to be revealed before the killing blow destroys the creature. 
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: werner on March 21, 2018, 08:40:55 AM
How strange that it has already been Ninja-Errata'd. We will play it as "May Reveal!"

As we thought this card could be FIZZLED give the nature of "Revealed==0 (non mandatory)."
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Coshade on March 21, 2018, 12:12:16 PM
What language is your card set in?
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Arkdeniz on March 21, 2018, 03:08:30 PM
Bog-standard English.
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Coshade on March 26, 2018, 04:44:51 PM
Any chance you could get a higher res copy? I'm looking for the fine print on the bottom.
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Arkdeniz on March 26, 2018, 05:25:27 PM
Easier just to transcribe it. The bottom row reads:

MW ACADEMY  [copyright sign]2016 Arcane Wonders. Art by Herckeim. MWAPRE08
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Sailor Vulcan on April 02, 2018, 02:24:13 PM
But rise again isn't an academy spell ...

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Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: DevilsVendetta on April 02, 2018, 05:07:09 PM
But rise again isn't an academy spell ...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J327A using Tapatalk

That's Second Chance.
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Arkdeniz on April 08, 2018, 06:52:33 AM
I'll just give this thread a small bump to ask if anyone has had any thoughts on how werner and I have managed to end up with cards from apparently a different printing of a set that is said to have had a single print run?
Title: Re: Second Chance vs Rise Again question
Post by: Zuberi on April 08, 2018, 10:46:11 AM
The image on OCTGN and the spellbook builder is wrong. They seem to have used an older image file of the card from when it was being playtested. The actual card that went to print has the text "When this creature is destroyed, you may pay its casting cost. If you do, summon it into the zone in which it was destroyed after the current action resolves."

This does mean it needs to be revealed before the creature gets destroyed.