Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => Mages => Topic started by: silverclawgrizzly on June 21, 2017, 12:48:59 PM

Title: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: silverclawgrizzly on June 21, 2017, 12:48:59 PM
I'd like to take a moment to discuss why the Necromancer has seen such a surge in popularity as of late. With the exception of this past Origins it seems like you can't go to a competitive tournament without running into one of these guys, or more like several of them. It's like going to a comic book convention and running into Joker cosplay, you know it's going to happen.

But what is it that makes the Necromancer so appealing? Like every mage he's got his weaknesses, in his case large glaring ones but he's also got his strengths.

I'm personally of the opinion is his main strength is his Poison Immunity. That's a whole strategy right there you can just straight up ignore. But is it really that great? Standing across the arena from a Paladin does it really matter that he can't Taint me? When boulders are flying from on top a Warlords hill do I honestly find comfort in knowing "Well at least that giant chunk of rock won't Rot me?"

Yeah you the big advantage Poison Immune is strong is it totally destroys the Curse game for many of the strongest curses. But again it doesn't help against Mage Bane or Chains of Agony.

In terms of creatures I'll say this: Yes zombies are awesome. But rely on them too much and some hard hitting Holy mage, and all three of them can go melee easy, is gonna hand your butt to you fast. Skeles give you more options and some healing on them which can increase their longevity.

I'm curious to other people's constructive thoughts on why many arenas are going goth as of late.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: jacksmack on June 21, 2017, 06:34:19 PM
Cheap durable hard hitting creatures. (zombies).

They have less mobility but its not really a problem because of idol of pestilence. Eventually the opponent has to come at you.


I think its kinda broken he gets poison immunity for free. I would have preferred it to be be a necromancer only equipment that could be destroyed.
It also limits his own strategies... basically if you make a serious book you cannot put more than a few points into poison cards because if you invest too heavily your at a serious disadvantage in a mirror match that spends 0 points on poison cards.


To sum it up. Cloak of shadows, Idol, Zombies.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: vlad3theimpaler on June 22, 2017, 03:12:18 AM
I can't speak to tournament appearances, but I can tell you why I love the Necromancer.  For me, style is a big part of it.  I've always thought black had some of the coolest cards in M:tg, and in dnd, my favorite enemies were liches, vampires, and other undead.  (And some demons, too.)

So when I tried mage wars, I immediately gravitated towards the dark mages.  Warlocks immediately caught my eye with their demons, and a few undead here and there.  And then the Druid vs. Necromacer expansion came out, and I still think it's the coolest expansion in the game.  There's so much style! You've got shambling zombie hordes, you've got an altar that powers up by placing skulls on it, you've got the book of the dead as an equipment!  (And if you have the sweet cardsleeves with the Libro Mortuos art, you can have your spellbook card in the spellbook sleeve, inside your spellbook.  It's like a Russian doll of evil!)

Mechanically, the Necromancer does awesome things, too, that tie into the flavor.  The poison immunity to me implies that the Necromancer is on the way to undeath himself, and the ability to use it as a weapon with impunity is pretty useful.  Having a graveyard and an evil book as spawnpoints are awesome flavor, and it also allows a cool strategic option of using both to just flood the board with creatures.  And having skeleton objects that can't be "healed," but can be "reconstructed" with an ample supply of bones is also pretty cool, and useful.  I actually prefer the skeletons to the zombies, both because I think they're cool, and because I'm a contrarian like that.   :)  They actually also work a little better against other necromancers, imo, because you're not paying for bloodthirsty effects that won't matter.  And with the dark conjurations that sap the other player's life, there's also an option to effectively set a "clock" and dare the opponent to try to kill you before that.

In short, Necromancers are both extremely cool from a flavor perspective, and have some unique strategic options open to them that separate them from the other mages.  That's why I like playing them, and I expect that's true for other people as well.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: drmambo23 on June 22, 2017, 11:45:52 AM
I know ive posted !bout the necro more than any other mage bit i like to share anythjng i can about him.

I play necro for the flavor morr than anything. But i have also made him my main for tournaments bc i do well with him, but that is only secondary to the flavor aspect. I actually started making him my main for tournament training bc he has the undead creatures. When i got into the tournament scene forcemasters were strong and mind control always got me. So use undeads, play poison cards, and go at it. Plus playing as my favorite mage was a nice bonus!  :)

But why he is great in mage wars:
Zombies are dirt cheap for what they can do
Skeletons are durable and can be healed
10 channeling
2 spawnpoint options, i am in favor of graveyard
Trained in dark, enough said there
Eternal servant ability...for no mana investment up front.
And poison immunity! I think this and 10 channeling make him a force to be taken seriously.  The 10 channel bc he is easy to upgrade it making it more difficult for a 9 channel to catch up, but also is wonderful if you use the rin and a spawnpoint to get a 2 or more mana discount each turn on top of that. 

Yes, you dont have to worry about a boulder tainting your mage. But you can apply arena wide effects and focus down a target to take them out faster while you and your creatures are fine.  And i resent your argument using a dirty holy mage!!! And i will take the challenge if zombies vs your melee paladin!

And there are plenty if cards to work against a mirror match like drain life, siphon life, magebane, chains of agony, marked for death, curse of decay, etc. All of these are in school options that are cheap, except drain life, and allow you to work around poison immunity.   But its the same scenario as if a warlock faced another warlock that used all fire immune creatures. It would be tough but can be done by prepping the right cards in your book.

But yes, the main strategy as of late is idol, zobos or skellies, and cloak. Why? Because it kicks ass! I am working on sime builds that will hopefully show that a necro can be more than just a hoard generating machine that sits in the back or the arena. But its all a work in progress. But the "necro meta" has been established that way for now and i hope it does change and we see a more diverse playstyle from players, muself included.  Bit what we have now, if played right works and i think that is why people gravitate towards him. But its not just his stata that make him great. Like always you have to know your book and possible strategies to go against.  Necro, to me, is like a game of cat and mouse. You build up, play your defense, attack, wash rinse repeat.

But that aside, if you know how to react, using the tools he has can make him a strong contender for offense and defense! 

Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: silverclawgrizzly on June 22, 2017, 01:36:34 PM
Nice responses so far, I get the flavor appeal. I'd imagine why my locals play him too.

DrMambo if you want to send your zombies into the holy meat grinder I'm happy to mail back what's left sir.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: V10lentray on June 22, 2017, 02:04:29 PM
Alfiya loves Zombies!!!
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Biblofilter on June 22, 2017, 04:20:58 PM
I donīt know if anyone has mention it already.

I have a great hatred for Forcemaster: Sleep, Mind Control and Mass Sleep.

Thats why every time i feel like going about being a merry Beastmaster - i choose Necromancer instead:

PSYCHIC IMMUNITY :)

Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Puddnhead on June 22, 2017, 04:30:57 PM
I donīt know if anyone has mention it already.

I have a great hatred for Forcemaster: Sleep, Mind Control and Mass Sleep.

Thats why every time i feel like going about being a merry Beastmaster - i choose Necromancer instead:

PSYCHIC IMMUNITY :)

Good luck being immune to critical damage and having a taste of your own Non-living medicine :)
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: silverclawgrizzly on June 22, 2017, 04:56:21 PM
Pfft what do birds care about steep hills? Sleep spells? Ha! Cure handles that and then some. Beast Master shall slay the new Force Master tricks and any Necromancer!

Ahem...back on topic....I also wish all the necros good luck with the scarabs.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: MrBubu on June 30, 2017, 05:46:40 AM
I feel the necro has a strong economy, with 10 base channeling, potentially long lasting creatures, arena wide effects. That's why they can afford to meditate in the first place.

And of course he has problems against holy. But against non-holy mages? I think that's where he can shine enough to make him attractive for tournaments. PvS and academy priestess can somewhat seen as a meta-nerf to the necro but stil...
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: drmambo23 on June 30, 2017, 07:01:27 AM
I dont think the uphill battle against a holy mage is as bad as many are saying. 

Priestess is the easiest to beat. Yes, she can get rid of poison conditions you put out but if you stop her healing you have a big advantage. Priest is tricky bc of the burns, but combo that with graveyard so when your creatures finally burn to death you get some mana back. And you have eternal servant to keep bringing back. Paladin is the toughest holy opponent, imo. The crazy melee buffs and auras he can aquire makes him a big threat for a necro. But playing a control game, focuasing down the enemies and do the rest of what a necro does will make the match up easier. Holy mages vs necro is tough, dont get me wrong. But it can be worked around and these games either end pretty fast or drag out and take a while to finish.

Just my 2 cents on the part against holy mages
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Enti on June 30, 2017, 08:19:37 AM
Since priestess is (by far!) the strongest holy mage she consequently is the toughest opponent for the necro.

I played dozens of times with necro against paladin and he not even once was able to get his auras activated.
Furthermore his ballista loses ~half its effectiveness because the piercing is completely useless against zombies and skeletons.
That actually leads to the fact that paladins tend to attack the graveyard, what ultimately seals their demise.

Priest, no comment, still the weakest holy mage.

Priestess...  brrrr.

Without Pillar of Righteous Flame there wouldn't be a problem in the first place. But this pillar is just sooo fucking OP against necro. I can only urge every mage to include a pillar. Because it evens out the odds against necromancer. (and apart from that it's still a strong card in other match-ups)

Of course, that's just my point of view.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: V10lentray on June 30, 2017, 08:50:14 AM

Priest, no comment, still the weakest holy mage.


The priest is terrible. He needs to be able to summon demons!
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: drmambo23 on June 30, 2017, 09:36:45 AM
Since priestess is (by far!) the strongest holy mage she consequently is the toughest opponent for the necro.

I played dozens of times with necro against paladin and he not even once was able to get his auras activated.
Furthermore his ballista loses ~half its effectiveness because the piercing is completely useless against zombies and skeletons.
That actually leads to the fact that paladins tend to attack the graveyard, what ultimately seals their demise.

Priest, no comment, still the weakest holy mage.

Priestess...  brrrr.

Without Pillar of Righteous Flame there wouldn't be a problem in the first place. But this pillar is just sooo fucking OP against necro. I can only urge every mage to include a pillar. Because it evens out the odds against necromancer. (and apart from that it's still a strong card in other match-ups)

Of course, that's just my point of view.

To be a pure holy mage, i think the priestess is super tough to deal with, yes.  But the pillar isnt a make or break for the necro. Ive got my butt handed to me multiple times by holy mages that havent used the pillar. Yeah its a very good card but 1 force wave and a wall stops it.  2 cards i reccomend for any necro zombie. And if 2 actions and 11 mana keep all of your zombies from taking a ton of damage its worth it.

And for paladin, if you can get 3 to 4 creatures out of the graveyard before he tears it down you should be ok and not have to play catch up to deal damage. Just my experience.


Priest, no comment, still the weakest holy mage.


The priest is terrible. He needs to be able to summon demons!

He can summon them :) just a matter of how you make the book effective. You might want to try druid with fire elemental and fire demons ;)


Back to the necro, though
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Mystery on June 30, 2017, 10:07:22 AM
To be a pure holy mage, i think the priestess is super tough to deal with, yes.  But the pillar isnt a make or break for the necro. Ive got my butt handed to me multiple times by holy mages that havent used the pillar. Yeah its a very good card but 1 force wave and a wall stops it.  2 cards i reccomend for any necro zombie. And if 2 actions and 11 mana keep all of your zombies from taking a ton of damage its worth it.

so you got two attacks hit your creatures and avoided anymore by paying a total of 2mana more. would still take that trade off. I am also of opinion pillar is extremly strong. it buys you time, so for 9mana i have you invest 11mana and two actions and i still got two 6dice attacks in good trade off :D



I think the main bonus of necro still is poison immunity it frees quite a few spellbook points for fewer dispel, remove curse, purify etc. in total.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: drmambo23 on June 30, 2017, 10:15:34 AM
Oh, no doubt that trade off is better for the person playing the pillar. You get the attacks and make me react. But if i can spend 11 mana and 2 actions to save the hoard its worth it to me.  All that to say i dont feel the pillar is OP. As with any well timed card, its just a great tactic to swing the game in your favor for a turn or 2 allowing you to capitalize. If your opponent doesnt react well it could be the game
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: RomeoXero on June 30, 2017, 10:34:59 AM
The priest is not terrible. Ray play on Octgn and ill show you how not terrible he is ;)
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Enti on June 30, 2017, 11:37:15 AM
But the pillar isnt a make or break for the necro.

The pillar is by far (by a large margin) the strongest card against necromancer - period.


Ive got my butt handed to me multiple times by holy mages that havent used the pillar.

I think necro vs. holy mage (without pillar) favors the necro. I'd even say favors the necro highly. Because you can force the holy mage to come to you. And that alone messes up their planned gamestyle in many cases.



 Yeah its a very good card but 1 force wave and a wall stops it.  2 cards i reccomend for any necro zombie. And if 2 actions and 11 mana keep all of your zombies from taking a ton of damage its worth it.
I wish it would be so easy. But even assuming that your strategy would render PoRF useless, you still have taken at least 12 dice of dmg, probably 18 dice and then you need to spend 2 actions and 11 mana to counter this single 9 mana card.

So you have invested more mana, more actions, and have already taken a lot of damage.

And that's best case. Sooo... in a close/balanced game this single cards tilts the advantage (significantly) to the holy mage.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: drmambo23 on June 30, 2017, 12:23:22 PM
Like i said, it can be the game winning card. But i still dont see that 1 card as the bane of a necromancers existence. I know you have given the dice amounts, but from experience It has never made the game horrible for me or anything when im playing a necro.  Just work around it however you can, or let it eat up your hoard.  Lastly, so we are all in agreement on this, the card, for what it cost and what it can do, is superb!
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Mystery on June 30, 2017, 01:29:30 PM
Like i said, it can be the game winning card. But i still dont see that 1 card as the bane of a necromancers existence. I know you have given the dice amounts, but from experience It has never made the game horrible for me or anything when im playing a necro.  Just work around it however you can, or let it eat up your hoard.  Lastly, so we are all in agreement on this, the card, for what it cost and what it can do, is superb!

I would say so either, its not much worse against most other mages. The worst part about the pillar is just it is stupid in timed matches, just enlengthening the game. I am not playing timed matches but if I would I include it in every book (even dark)
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Enti on June 30, 2017, 01:41:33 PM
Well, against zombies who are bloodthirsty it definitely is stronger than against other mages. Because they can't just leave the zone (and get +2 dice 4 times in a row).

But yeah, even in regular matches this card is still good - that shows just how good  the card really is.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Puddnhead on June 30, 2017, 01:47:58 PM
While I somewhat agree with you guys, my reason for the rise of the Necromancer is Resilient.  Resilient means that more often than not your creatures will trade favorably with anyone else's creatures.  Sure you can get unlucky and they roll all crits, but Graveyard and the generally high health and low cost of zombies in general means that it doesn't actually sting you that much to lose a creature to a dice anomaly.

(As the to the derailment of Pillar of Righteous Flame, Resilient still works against it's attack and Cloak of Shadows is in school and something that most Necromancers have in their books anyway.)
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Mystery on June 30, 2017, 02:43:58 PM
While I somewhat agree with you guys, my reason for the rise of the Necromancer is Resilient.  Resilient means that more often than not your creatures will trade favorably with anyone else's creatures.  Sure you can get unlucky and they roll all crits, but Graveyard and the generally high health and low cost of zombies in general means that it doesn't actually sting you that much to lose a creature to a dice anomaly.

(As the to the derailment of Pillar of Righteous Flame, Resilient still works against it's attack and Cloak of Shadows is in school and something that most Necromancers have in their books anyway.)

but it is in combination with poison immunity. cause on other mages you just ignore the creatures for example and curse them to death or such. And also skeleton necros are good. Poison immunity just frees quite some sbp for more creature support spells instead of opening the weakness while doing so
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Puddnhead on June 30, 2017, 02:57:31 PM
While I somewhat agree with you guys, my reason for the rise of the Necromancer is Resilient.  Resilient means that more often than not your creatures will trade favorably with anyone else's creatures.  Sure you can get unlucky and they roll all crits, but Graveyard and the generally high health and low cost of zombies in general means that it doesn't actually sting you that much to lose a creature to a dice anomaly.

(As the to the derailment of Pillar of Righteous Flame, Resilient still works against it's attack and Cloak of Shadows is in school and something that most Necromancers have in their books anyway.)

but it is in combination with poison immunity. cause on other mages you just ignore the creatures for example and curse them to death or such. And also skeleton necros are good. Poison immunity just frees quite some sbp for more creature support spells instead of opening the weakness while doing so

Absolutely, Poison Immunity is great...but I find that it means more creatures not necessarily more creature support spells.  I don't see very many creature support spells in Necromancer books.  Which ones do you see?
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Mystery on June 30, 2017, 03:18:14 PM
the just mentioned force wave, more marked for death/rusts/acid balls then for example the beast master as you can save a bit on your anti curse stuff. such stuff i mean, backuping the indirect buffs is easier sbp wise
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: drmambo23 on June 30, 2017, 03:41:30 PM
Marked for death, curse of decay, agony and chains of agony are top picks for me because they work in mirror matches. But chains of agony isnt one i use very much. I keep 1 rust, 1 to 2 chant of rage, and so on. I cant remember all the enchants i use. But puddin is right - every card i just mentioned is a card used for the enemy. The only cards i have to help my zombies are force wave, lesser teleport, gravikor, and zombie frenzy. If im feeling saucy i will add an extinguish just in case. But the fact is you dont need to support them because they are resilient, bloodthirsty, and are very generous in their mana cost. They are self relient creatures that dont need to be taken care of which is why i use them in tournaments. Just throw them out and let them do their thing.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Reddicediaries on June 30, 2017, 11:20:19 PM
Since priestess is (by far!) the strongest holy mage she consequently is the toughest opponent for the necro.

I played dozens of times with necro against paladin and he not even once was able to get his auras activated.
Furthermore his ballista loses ~half its effectiveness because the piercing is completely useless against zombies and skeletons.
That actually leads to the fact that paladins tend to attack the graveyard, what ultimately seals their demise.

Priest, no comment, still the weakest holy mage.

Priestess...  brrrr.

Without Pillar of Righteous Flame there wouldn't be a problem in the first place. But this pillar is just sooo fucking OP against necro. I can only urge every mage to include a pillar. Because it evens out the odds against necromancer. (and apart from that it's still a strong card in other match-ups)

Of course, that's just my point of view.
The Ballista is not meant to be used against skellies and zombies. However, it still is free 5 dmg.
If they focus the graveyard smartly, I see no reason why that means they essentially just loose the game. I played the matchup a bunch of times with my paladin and I started winning most of them after learning the matchup.
Auras are the icing on the cake, not the bread and butter. That being said, all you need to do is use your ring to kill one or two level 2-3 creatures and you should have enough valor to activate most auras.
Priest is not weak. He's really strong in the right hands and is best used (not) being played like the priestess imo.
I also don't think the priestess is the strongest Holy mage. She and the Paladin are tied for me and Priest isn't very far behind.
If attacking the spawnpoint auto loses you the game, how does Shark ever win vs angel priestess? I don't get your logic. It all depends on the player.
Edit: (not)
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: bigfatchef on July 02, 2017, 05:11:50 AM
The Ballista is not meant to be used against skellies and zombies. However, it still is free 5 dmg.
How do you know how the ballista is meant to be used? Is anything meant to shoot something with aegis then? Is ballistas purpose to shoot heavy armor conjurations only? I agree with your conclusion that it is still 5 dice. I still feel free to shoot whatever I want with it :)

Priest is not weak. He's really strong in the right hands and is best used now being played like the priestess imo.
I also don't think the priestess is the strongest Holy mage. She and the Paladin are tied for me and Priest isn't very far behind.
Must disagree here! If you play priest as priestess, but without priestess abilities and -1 channeling, how can you say they are even close? Priest is much worse especially if you play him as you are telling us!
Play priest with avenger and burns to use his skills and he gets better, but is still worse.
What you are actually saying is, that holy school is very strong, even when playing the weak mage wrong.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Sailor Vulcan on July 02, 2017, 09:01:00 AM
If you're playing the priest, you usually want to include a spawnpoint or familiar. Otherwise he won't have enough actions or mana unless he is rushing with attack spells. The reason for this is because the priest tends to be more controlling than other aggressive mages but more aggressive than other controlling mages. The priest wants to be attacking a lot, but he has a bunch of other spells he wants to cast. It took me a really long time to realize this. Before I figured out how to play the priest, I was always short on mana and actions. I had thought the priest was too weak to compete with the other  mages. I'm much better with him now.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: silverclawgrizzly on July 02, 2017, 09:06:55 AM
Ok take the priest debate to another thread please. This one is about the Necromancer.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Reddicediaries on July 02, 2017, 11:31:37 AM
Ok take the priest debate to another thread please. This one is about the Necromancer.
Sorry. My main point about the priest is using him as the priestess is the wrong way to play him. (typo above has been fixed).
In a necro matchup, the priest would likely focus on a HA griffen or something and controlling the middle of the board. Perhaps a slightly aggressive temple.
Staying in the corner and meditating against the necro might work for the priestess vs necro, but I severely doubt that.
If it doesn't work for her in the matchup, it sure as heck won't work for the priest.
You want to engage the necro and depending on the specific matchup, take out the graveyard or the creatures first. Or in some cases go for the mage kill.
I actually think in the priestess vs necro and the priest vs necro matchup, the priest likely has to play better since in my opinion, he's harder to use. As in his abilities are harder to use than the priestess' relatively straight foreword ones. Use that HA on a griffen or what not and control the center of the board.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: RomeoXero on July 02, 2017, 01:10:24 PM
 Here's an honest opinion of why necro has risen so high lately. One word. Resilient. They have in school access to the most infinite armor creatures of any other mage in the game besides the warlocks, and his mage abilities support those creatures better than the warlock. The fact is that damage in this world is usually applied with dice. More dice=more damage potential. So the necromancer has a large suite of creatures that completely ignore 2/3rds of all dice thrown. Luck is immediately on the side of the necro. Add poison immunity and now neither he or his zombies take DoT, at least not the most efficient ones. Piercing, poison, psychic, bleed, sirens call, cripple, pacify, songs in general,  all of these have absolutely no effect on zombies. Skellies too except piercing works on them.
These are just facts. Necro creatures are by and large under priced for what they do. Cannot be reliably killed, and can be brought back infinitely (eternal servant). And we have what? Fire for burns, and acid for corrode. Nothing but acid ball does a reliable amount of corrode, and even them out only rolls 2 dice. Necros are popular because they are strong, but moreso i feel because zombies are a tad OP, entirely due to resilient.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Reddicediaries on July 02, 2017, 01:56:19 PM
The Ballista is not meant to be used against skellies and zombies. However, it still is free 5 dmg.
How do you know how the ballista is meant to be used? Is anything meant to shoot something with aegis then? Is ballistas purpose to shoot heavy armor conjurations only? I agree with your conclusion that it is still 5 dice. I still feel free to shoot whatever I want with it :)

Priest is not weak. He's really strong in the right hands and is best used now being played like the priestess imo.
I also don't think the priestess is the strongest Holy mage. She and the Paladin are tied for me and Priest isn't very far behind.
Must disagree here! If you play priest as priestess, but without priestess abilities and -1 channeling, how can you say they are even close? Priest is much worse especially if you play him as you are telling us!
Play priest with avenger and burns to use his skills and he gets better, but is still worse.
What you are actually saying is, that holy school is very strong, even when playing the weak mage wrong.
I'm infering the ballista's prefered targets based on what it does as a card.
The priest if anything is a high skill cap mage. Imo, being a good priest player likely requires more thinking and effort than being a good priestess player simply because he abilities are harder to use correctly.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: drmambo23 on July 02, 2017, 03:48:25 PM
Here's an honest opinion of why necro has risen so high lately. One word. Resilient. They have in school access to the most infinite armor creatures of any other mage in the game besides the warlocks, and his mage abilities support those creatures better than the warlock. The fact is that damage in this world is usually applied with dice. More dice=more damage potential. So the necromancer has a large suite of creatures that completely ignore 2/3rds of all dice thrown. Luck is immediately on the side of the necro. Add poison immunity and now neither he or his zombies take DoT, at least not the most efficient ones. Piercing, poison, psychic, bleed, sirens call, cripple, pacify, songs in general,  all of these have absolutely no effect on zombies. Skellies too except piercing works on them.
These are just facts. Necro creatures are by and large under priced for what they do. Cannot be reliably killed, and can be brought back infinitely (eternal servant). And we have what? Fire for burns, and acid for corrode. Nothing but acid ball does a reliable amount of corrode, and even them out only rolls 2 dice. Necros are popular because they are strong, but moreso i feel because zombies are a tad OP, entirely due to resilient.

I agree! Like i said before i played him bc he is my favorite, same way you play priest. And hell, i even asked on a thread before "i want to play necro in tournament settings but i feel he sucks bc a, b, and c..help please" (paraphrase). But since then, learning ins and outs of him i love the mage even more and know much more about him...but still the general consensus is what romeo and others have stated. And not bc its a bs opinion but bc its pretty spot on.

The Ballista is not meant to be used against skellies and zombies. However, it still is free 5 dmg.
How do you know how the ballista is meant to be used? Is anything meant to shoot something with aegis then? Is ballistas purpose to shoot heavy armor conjurations only? I agree with your conclusion that it is still 5 dice. I still feel free to shoot whatever I want with it :)

Priest is not weak. He's really strong in the right hands and is best used now being played like the priestess imo.
I also don't think the priestess is the strongest Holy mage. She and the Paladin are tied for me and Priest isn't very far behind.
Must disagree here! If you play priest as priestess, but without priestess abilities and -1 channeling, how can you say they are even close? Priest is much worse especially if you play him as you are telling us!
Play priest with avenger and burns to use his skills and he gets better, but is still worse.
What you are actually saying is, that holy school is very strong, even when playing the weak mage wrong.
I'm infering the ballista's prefered targets based on what it does as a card.
The priest if anything is a high skill cap mage. Imo, being a good priest player likely requires more thinking and effort than being a good priestess player simply because he abilities are harder to use correctly.

Please debate your priest concerns in a priest thread
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: Reddicediaries on July 02, 2017, 04:06:17 PM
Here's an honest opinion of why necro has risen so high lately. One word. Resilient. They have in school access to the most infinite armor creatures of any other mage in the game besides the warlocks, and his mage abilities support those creatures better than the warlock. The fact is that damage in this world is usually applied with dice. More dice=more damage potential. So the necromancer has a large suite of creatures that completely ignore 2/3rds of all dice thrown. Luck is immediately on the side of the necro. Add poison immunity and now neither he or his zombies take DoT, at least not the most efficient ones. Piercing, poison, psychic, bleed, sirens call, cripple, pacify, songs in general,  all of these have absolutely no effect on zombies. Skellies too except piercing works on them.
These are just facts. Necro creatures are by and large under priced for what they do. Cannot be reliably killed, and can be brought back infinitely (eternal servant). And we have what? Fire for burns, and acid for corrode. Nothing but acid ball does a reliable amount of corrode, and even them out only rolls 2 dice. Necros are popular because they are strong, but moreso i feel because zombies are a tad OP, entirely due to resilient.

I agree! Like i said before i played him bc he is my favorite, same way you play priest. And hell, i even asked on a thread before "i want to play necro in tournament settings but i feel he sucks bc a, b, and c..help please" (paraphrase). But since then, learning ins and outs of him i love the mage even more and know much more about him...but still the general consensus is what romeo and others have stated. And not bc its a bs opinion but bc its pretty spot on.

The Ballista is not meant to be used against skellies and zombies. However, it still is free 5 dmg.
How do you know how the ballista is meant to be used? Is anything meant to shoot something with aegis then? Is ballistas purpose to shoot heavy armor conjurations only? I agree with your conclusion that it is still 5 dice. I still feel free to shoot whatever I want with it :)

Priest is not weak. He's really strong in the right hands and is best used now being played like the priestess imo.
I also don't think the priestess is the strongest Holy mage. She and the Paladin are tied for me and Priest isn't very far behind.
Must disagree here! If you play priest as priestess, but without priestess abilities and -1 channeling, how can you say they are even close? Priest is much worse especially if you play him as you are telling us!
Play priest with avenger and burns to use his skills and he gets better, but is still worse.
What you are actually saying is, that holy school is very strong, even when playing the weak mage wrong.
I'm infering the ballista's prefered targets based on what it does as a card.
The priest if anything is a high skill cap mage. Imo, being a good priest player likely requires more thinking and effort than being a good priestess player simply because he abilities are harder to use correctly.

Please debate your priest concerns in a priest thread
I must say, Remeo essentially summed much of the issue up in one go. Props to him.
Zombies are so annoying that a lot of people just ignore them and go for the mage.
Taking out the graveyard is very possible though and should be done if possible imo. You just need to commit to it 100%.
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: drmambo23 on July 02, 2017, 04:22:20 PM
Cloak + tanglevine makes it hard for someone to rush the mage and ignore zombies.  Then you're caught in the hoard.

Im interested to hear from skeleton necro players. I dont play them so i cant input too much but i am curious to playstyles from them and their thoughts on the rise of necros using skeletons
Title: Re: Rise of the Necromancer.
Post by: MrBubu on July 03, 2017, 03:14:41 AM
Has anyone ever done some calculations on how much more likely you are to overkill resilient creatures? Eperience and some back on the envelope stuff suggest to me, that one point that makes resilient so strong is the higher variance in the damage you throw, together with the lower mean damage, thus leading to higher overkills.
I have not done anything concrete however. Would be interesting to put a number on it.
So you effectively waste dice on zombies. And it makes it hard(er) to plan the turn, when you cannot really say if a creature is going to die or not.