Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => General Questions => Topic started by: Skra on January 16, 2018, 02:05:26 AM

Title: About the Paladin...
Post by: Skra on January 16, 2018, 02:05:26 AM
Hi.

I have a few questions about the Paladin.

1. Is the Paladin considered a Knight? For example, can my Paladin target himself and cast the Knights Courage enchantment, which has a target of "Living Knight Creature"?

2. Chivalrous Challenge

Please forgive me if these questions have already been answered.


Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Obsidian Soul on January 16, 2018, 09:27:44 AM
No, the Paladin is not a Knight or a Soldier (his subclass is Ivarium and his type is Human), so he does not benefit from special effects that target either type of creature.  I believe that you would gain Valor if your Challenged enemy attacked a guard instead of you and, yes, your Challenged enemy is not obligated to attack during a turn (it could Guard and, if it just has a full round attack, would never generate Valor), but you can always pay 2 Valor to return the Challenge Marker.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Puddnhead on January 16, 2018, 09:52:21 AM
Just echoing that Obisidan Soul is correct.

Your Paladin has no special subtype.

Chivalrous Challenge is indeed manipulable in many different ways.  One of my favorites right now is to use "Defend Me" on a creature and then use it to pop a guard up when the challenge target activates.

Chivalrous Challenge does not restrict its target in any way.  All it does is give consequences for certain actions.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: silverclawgrizzly on January 16, 2018, 10:00:14 AM
I like to challenge a big resilient creature when I have Eye for an Eye ready then finish them off with the sword.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Coshade on January 17, 2018, 12:18:46 PM
Obsidian - thanks for the quick answer! Enjoy your sticker
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Obsidian Soul on January 17, 2018, 12:58:30 PM
Thank you.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: DaveW on January 17, 2018, 05:19:23 PM
Yeah... you donít play the Paladin for valor reasons, you play him because of his awesome training. The valor is just the cherry on top, if you can get any use out of it. Donít make your strategy revolve around gaining valor.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Reddicediaries on January 17, 2018, 05:21:19 PM
Yeah... you donít play the Paladin for valor reasons, you play him because of his awesome training. The valor is just the cherry on top, if you can get any use out of it. Donít make your strategy revolve around gaining valor.
Agreed, but use the challenge as much as possible.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: drmambo23 on January 17, 2018, 05:34:58 PM

Yeah... you donít play the Paladin for valor reasons, you play him because of his awesome training. The valor is just the cherry on top, if you can get any use out of it. Donít make your strategy revolve around gaining valor.
Agreed, but use the challenge as much as possible.

Surely I cant be the only one who plays a paladin for valor and auras.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Reddicediaries on January 17, 2018, 05:47:23 PM

Yeah... you donít play the Paladin for valor reasons, you play him because of his awesome training. The valor is just the cherry on top, if you can get any use out of it. Donít make your strategy revolve around gaining valor.
Agreed, but use the challenge as much as possible.

Surely I cant be the only one who plays a paladin for valor and auras.
I play him for them, but they arne't the main focus of the book.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Kelanen on February 11, 2018, 06:08:30 PM
Yeah... you donít play the Paladin for valor reasons, you play him because of his awesome training. The valor is just the cherry on top, if you can get any use out of it. Donít make your strategy revolve around gaining valor.

This.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Reddicediaries on February 11, 2018, 06:59:50 PM
Yeah... you donít play the Paladin for valor reasons, you play him because of his awesome training. The valor is just the cherry on top, if you can get any use out of it. Donít make your strategy revolve around gaining valor.

This.
Agreed to an extent. Valor can be quite useful and auras are really good when you have the spare action. But no, I don't play paladin for auras.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: DevilsVendetta on February 12, 2018, 06:32:13 AM
There are two main problems with Auras/Valor and one half problem. One, it has to use your action marker; it can't be a Quick cast or what it should be, a free action with priority. Two, 2-3 of the Auras just aren't that good. Three, there just isn't enough to do with Valor yet. Smite is a good use but it's a once per game action. The one Temple could give melee plus 1. But I think that's it.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: SirJasonCrage on February 12, 2018, 07:09:42 AM
You can't use the mage's valor for the temple.

Off the top of my head, these are the things you can do with Valor:

1 Auras
2 Buff sword effect die (which is kinda disappointing, because 12+ is just burn, not daze+burn)
3 Swap Challenge around
4 SMITE THE HEATHEN

That's not even bad, if you ask me.

Auras:
Auras are cool. It's all sorts of weird that a "Hit you in the face"-mage needs to use his full action for an integral part of his kit. And yes, some of the auras don't exactly blow you away.
An important part of Auras is getting neglected whenever I see them mentioned though: They can't be taken away.
Everything in this game can be taken away, except most Mage traits/abilities. It's a core underlying theme of Mage Wars. Every piece of armor or enchant can be taken away by using just as much mana and actions as your opponent used (Yes, there's some exceptions. You get the point.) Heck, even Conjurations can be nullified by conquer. Creatures and Conjurations can be killed. Traits like Melee+ or Fast can be cursed away.
Auras stay. And that's a lot stronger than you give it credit for.
One more thing: It may cost you a potential Melee attack to equip an aura, but you can just buy another melee attack for 2 mana with radiant breastplate.

Sword effect:
Oh well. It's a way to spend Valor and it's not like it decreases the daze chance in any way. I just wish it was Daze+Burn. Always feels like the priest staff is stronger than the Paladin sword...

Swapping:
The main drawback of Challenge is its dual nature. Yes, you get to hit harder. But so does your opponent. Swapping that thing around for no action at all allows you to play around your weak and strong points in the game, taking guards and crowd control into account.
If you can swap it around next turn, you're no longer forced to oneshot the marked opponent for fear that it's gonna tear you a new one over the course of the next two turns.

SMITE:
THE HEATHEN!
Beautiful card, even though you should probably make sure your opponent does not have any hidden enchants underneath him. Can't be dodged or braced himself against, but it's still susceptible to glancing blow, Helm of Fear, Defend Me or Divine Intervention.


That said, I still haven't gotten around to actually making a Paladin and playing him, so take all this with a grain of salt.

I think his main weakness is that he brings nothing at all to the table at the start of the game. No bonus hp, no bonus Melee, no bonus mana, no immediately usable effects except one that buffs you and the opponent by the same amount.


Pray and Slay, my brothers.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Arkdeniz on February 12, 2018, 01:42:19 PM
The main problem with Challenge, as I see it, is that its buff to the enemy actively discourages the Paladin from being heroic.

A classic Paladin wants to engage with the biggest, meanest enemy. The Paladin stands tall on the field against the dragon.

The Challenge instead suggests that what the MW Paladin wants to do is bully the little stuff that wonít punch back very hard, if they get a chance to do so at all.

So instead of fighting the dragon, he waves his sword at the goblin grunt.

I would have preferred a character power that gave a straight bonus (such as melee +1 and a Valour) when the Paladin engages with the strongest enemy creature.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Puddnhead on February 12, 2018, 03:19:58 PM
The main problem with Challenge, as I see it, is that its buff to the enemy actively discourages the Paladin from being heroic.

A classic Paladin wants to engage with the biggest, meanest enemy. The Paladin stands tall on the field against the dragon.

The Challenge instead suggests that what the MW Paladin wants to do is bully the little stuff that wonít punch back very hard, if they get a chance to do so at all.

So instead of fighting the dragon, he waves his sword at the goblin grunt.

I would have preferred a character power that gave a straight bonus (such as melee +1 and a Valour) when the Paladin engages with the strongest enemy creature.

Like "...when the Paladin melee attacks and damages the strongest enemy creature, he gains 1 Valor."?!
:)
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Arkdeniz on February 12, 2018, 06:06:28 PM
Well, yes.

I should possibly have been clearer that the straight bonus should be for the Pally only, and not come with a boost to the enemy.

The Paladin should be out there fighting Adremalech rather than the goblin, but being the Mage it is unlikely to do so since it does not want to face that boosted counterattack.

I think the Red Helm power is actually a better implementation of what the Pallyís power could have been.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Reddicediaries on February 12, 2018, 06:41:12 PM
Well, yes.

I should possibly have been clearer that the straight bonus should be for the Pally only, and not come with a boost to the enemy.

The Paladin should be out there fighting Adremalech rather than the goblin, but being the Mage it is unlikely to do so since it does not want to face that boosted counterattack.

I think the Red Helm power is actually a better implementation of what the Pallyís power could have been.
I honestly hate anything related to strongest since I find it is pretty easily worked around.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Puddnhead on February 12, 2018, 07:41:03 PM
Well, yes.

I should possibly have been clearer that the straight bonus should be for the Pally only, and not come with a boost to the enemy.

The Paladin should be out there fighting Adremalech rather than the goblin, but being the Mage it is unlikely to do so since it does not want to face that boosted counterattack.

I think the Red Helm power is actually a better implementation of what the Pallyís power could have been.
I honestly hate anything related to strongest since I find it is pretty easily worked around.

That is because you lose the positioning game. I feel like I say this over and over. It's not the dice you have on the table - - it's how you use them.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Reddicediaries on February 12, 2018, 08:30:13 PM
Well, yes.

I should possibly have been clearer that the straight bonus should be for the Pally only, and not come with a boost to the enemy.

The Paladin should be out there fighting Adremalech rather than the goblin, but being the Mage it is unlikely to do so since it does not want to face that boosted counterattack.

I think the Red Helm power is actually a better implementation of what the Pallyís power could have been.
I honestly hate anything related to strongest since I find it is pretty easily worked around.

That is because you lose the positioning game. I feel like I say this over and over. It's not the dice you have on the table - - it's how you use them.
That's kind of exactly my point Puddn. It's why I take issue with "how many dice can I throw" strategies.
Title: Re: About the Paladin...
Post by: Puddnhead on February 12, 2018, 10:16:06 PM
And I'm saying learn the positioning game and "strongest"  will be very useful.  8)