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Mage Wars => Rules Discussion => Topic started by: exid on January 18, 2018, 11:31:03 AM

Title: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: exid on January 18, 2018, 11:31:03 AM
"toward her" becoms toward the eye, or is it still toward the Forcemaster?
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Puddnhead on January 18, 2018, 11:42:02 AM
In short, it's fuzzy.

Towards her is the Rules as Written interpretation. The problem comes when you target something within the Forcemaster's zone.  This was never an issue before since the spell is range 1-2.  Now with Mind's Eye you can target something inside your own zone...what do you do now?

I think the best way to interpret Mind's Eye itself is that Mind's Eye becomes "her" when it is the source of Force Pull.  To put it another way, the Forcemaster always pulls towards the source (historically herself), but Mind's Eye wasn't on the radar back then and so the Forcemaster statcard should say "Force Pull pushes toward the source".
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Beldin on January 30, 2018, 11:59:02 PM
Agreed.  The minds eye becomes the source and thus the target is pulled towards the eye.
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: exid on January 31, 2018, 12:55:08 AM
and you can pull it in a wall (3 dices damage!)
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: ininalia on November 28, 2018, 06:30:56 AM
Hi,

because I didnt find a good answer I wanted to ask again. Sorry for reviving this topic

Is the "her" in Force Pull the Minds Eye or the Forcemaster if used through the Minds Eye?

It would be nice if someone could clarify this with a solid rule foundation.
(For me it matters little if the lore fits)

How I see it is that it moves closer to the Minds Eye, because it says "her" not specifically "Forcemaster".

But this interpretation comes from other (mostly TCGs) games that use specific Syntax to have clear Card Text. In most of them its, if its not the exact card name (in this case that would be "Forcemaster") then it means the source of the effect.

With best regards,
Ini
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: exid on November 28, 2018, 08:48:04 AM
"her" is the force master.

you must choose:
-> does it stay the FM when cast from the eye?
-> does it mean "the source" and become the eye when cast from the eye?

ase written, it's the first answer... but I choosed the second.
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Kharhaz on November 28, 2018, 11:59:59 AM
In short, RAW, "her" is the forcemaster.

Mind's eye changes the source of the spell but not the ability of a spell.

You still cannot push creatures through walls with the passage attack trait and the spell is still an "untyped" force spell that follows all the normal steps. (doesn't trigger nullify, force ring discounts, etc.)

The push effect, see the codex, specifically works by having the target move 1 zone away from the source. The forcemaster ability overides that by always setting the Forcemaster as the source.
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Puddnhead on November 28, 2018, 01:18:31 PM
All throughout playtesting, I personally...as well as those with whom I playtested, assumed that Mind's Eye becomes the place toward which the target is pulled... I.E. the Forcemaster's ability gets reworded to "...pulled one zone toward the source".

Force Pull had no historical reason to be worded in the above manner and it is simpler "plain English" to just say "her" instead of "the source" because "her" IS the source...until Mind's Eye comes along.  All of a sudden you've divorced "caster" from "source" and now there's a grey area. Rather brilliant that this is the ONE thing that causes problems with Mind's Eye's wording.

Now, I'm not the designer and I don't know the intent.  I always prefer intent over "Rules As Written" and that may be a shortcoming of mine.

Most of the time Mind's Eye is used to cast Thoughtspore spells in my experience, but the potential to pull anywhere is what makes the spell actually interesting and fun to play.

As the official Rules Codex and Supplement has not been updated on this item it falls to the community to decide how to rule it. I know of at least two tournaments (both of which I've been involved in running, so take this with a grain of salt) that rule the way I have up above. By no means am I the arbiter of your enjoyment of this game, but tradition interprets grey areas and there's a tradition started with both this spell and with Disciple of Radiance and I would counsel to go with tradition.
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Kharhaz on November 28, 2018, 02:24:53 PM
All throughout playtesting, I personally...as well as those with whom I playtested, assumed that Mind's Eye becomes the place toward which the target is pulled... I.E. the Forcemaster's ability gets reworded to "...pulled one zone toward the source".

Force Pull had no historical reason to be worded in the above manner and it is simpler "plain English" to just say "her" instead of "the source" because "her" IS the source...until Mind's Eye comes along.  All of a sudden you've divorced "caster" from "source" and now there's a grey area. Rather brilliant that this is the ONE thing that causes problems with Mind's Eye's wording.

Now, I'm not the designer and I don't know the intent.  I always prefer intent over "Rules As Written" and that may be a shortcoming of mine.

Most of the time Mind's Eye is used to cast Thoughtspore spells in my experience, but the potential to pull anywhere is what makes the spell actually interesting and fun to play.

As the official Rules Codex and Supplement has not been updated on this item it falls to the community to decide how to rule it. I know of at least two tournaments (both of which I've been involved in running, so take this with a grain of salt) that rule the way I have up above. By no means am I the arbiter of your enjoyment of this game, but tradition interprets grey areas and there's a tradition started with both this spell and with Disciple of Radiance and I would counsel to go with tradition.


Not disagreeing with you Pudding, but Ini wanted a solid rules foundation.

From FAQ:
"Unless the effect says otherwise, the pushed creature must move one zone away from the source of the Push"

The Force Pull effect overrides the source for the Push effect. It's not a gray area at all really becuase of how force pull is written to always push the creature towards the force master.





Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Arkdeniz on November 28, 2018, 04:28:42 PM
Ininalia mentions lore. Well, since that door is opened...

To me the Mind's Eye (in in-game lore terms) is a manifestation of the Forcemaster's will. In effect the Mind's Eye serves as a remote version of herself (serving as the "her" of the Forcemaster detail card).

If we want to look at it another way the target feels a pulling force from Force Pull. If the source of the pulling force emanates from the Mind's Eye it wouldn't make sense for the target to move in any other direction than towards the Mind's Eye.

So for both these reasons I am with Puddnhead. The Force Pull from a Mind's Eye drags the target towards the Mind's Eye.

(To me, Mind's Eye is kind of like a familiar that the Forcemaster channels her own spells through, rather than casting its own, but like a familiar it serves as its own source.)
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Puddnhead on November 28, 2018, 04:37:36 PM

Not disagreeing with you Pudding, but Ini wanted a solid rules foundation.

From FAQ:
"Unless the effect says otherwise, the pushed creature must move one zone away from the source of the Push"

The Force Pull effect overrides the source for the Push effect. It's not a gray area at all really becuase of how force pull is written to always push the creature towards the force master.


I'm in full agreement that a RAW reading of Force Pull (as worded before the idea of Mind's Eye was a twinkle in the designer's eye) is always toward "her". But two points remain

1) First, as mentioned, Mind's Eye wasn't a concept while Force Pull was originally being worded. It still remains that "her" and "source" are interchangeable in RAW understandings of Force Pull until Mind's Eye was created.  Once Mind's Eye hit the field those terms are no longer interchangeable and I definitely believe they deserve a statement of intention. It could be argued that you are no longer using Force Pull in the way it is supposed to be used on either account. Which is the greater part of the intention of Force Pull: That it always closed the gap between FM and target OR That it always PULLS? They are one and the same until Mind's Eye mucks it up for us.

2) What happens now that the Forcemaster is able to target herself with Force Pull through Mind's Eye? Nothing? OR Any direction you choose?  Doesn't it make more sense to force (pun intended) the pull to move in a certain direction..i.e. Toward the source?  Which is now Mind's Eye.  Should changing the Source of Force Pull have ramifications other than range as it does with other spells?  Reverse Magic, Revese Attack will affect the Eye rather than the Forcemaster (or Thoughtspore) when using other spells.  Why does it not change the effect of Force Pull?

Slightly more frivolously, it could be construed that "her" is a very unclear term in that it could be referring to any "her" in the arena.  ;)

I know you and I have been around the block a few times with this one and I respect your rules knowledge and interpretive ability. I am just convinced that the "proper" way to play Force Pull + Mind's Eye is to actually make the Eye cast the spell instead of the Forcemaster and thus BE the "her" to which Force Pull is referring.
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Kharhaz on November 28, 2018, 06:35:08 PM

2)
A.What happens now that the Forcemaster is able to target herself with Force Pull through Mind's Eye? Nothing? OR Any direction you choose?

B. Doesn't it make more sense to force (pun intended) the pull to move in a certain direction..i.e. Toward the source?  Which is now Mind's Eye. 

C.Should changing the Source of Force Pull have ramifications other than range as it does with other spells?  Reverse Magic, Revese Attack will affect the Eye rather than the Forcemaster (or Thoughtspore) when using other spells.  Why does it not change the effect of Force Pull?

2.A) The same thing that happens when you cast push on yourself.

2.B) Debating intent of effect vs intent of spell is irrelevant. At the end of the day, if I was a judge, the rules say how it works so that is how it works. Your judge may disagree but from the reverse, if I was playing someone and they called a judge over and the judge decided that a rule didn't apply becuase my opponenet didnt want it to, I would not be very happy.

2.C) Reverse magic / nullify require enchantment and incantations to trigger, so force pull will not trigger that; side note. The source of Force Pull does change for the record, it's the mind eye. What you have to remember is that force pull overrides the PUSH effect and that is why this gets weird.


P.S. I'll take you around the block any day ol buddy ;)
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Arkdeniz on November 28, 2018, 06:38:24 PM
Slightly more frivolously, it could be construed that "her" is a very unclear term in that it could be referring to any "her" in the arena.  ;)


I will see your frivolous statement and raise you Life Link. I feel sorry for any Priestess that wants to use it, since that spell clearly can be only used by the guys.

"The controller of Life Link may heal up to 3 damage from this creature and place it on HIMSELF as direct damage."


Now this may seem like a flippant comment, and I suspect that nobody will take this ruling seriously. I'm sure Kharhaz will agree that "Of course a Priestess could use Life Link!"

However, if you are prepared to accept that 'himself' in this case means 'controlling mage' then you are accepting that pronoun usage in Mage Wars is not a concrete thing. And if you accept that, then it is a very short step to thinking that "her" of the Force Pull may not necessarily mean "the Forcemaster" but could mean something else, like "the source".

At this point, if you argue that 'her' can only mean the Forcemaster because 'reasons' then you are arguing intent rather than RAW. Which means game on, may the best RAI win. 

Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: DaveW on November 28, 2018, 07:13:54 PM
Slightly more frivolously, it could be construed that "her" is a very unclear term in that it could be referring to any "her" in the arena.

Since pronouns replace nouns in context, and since the only "her" mentioned in the context of the Force Pull ability, this "her" must be the Forcemaster. It cannot be a reference to any other creature... even another female FM.
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Kharhaz on November 28, 2018, 07:46:18 PM
Slightly more frivolously, it could be construed that "her" is a very unclear term in that it could be referring to any "her" in the arena.

Since pronouns replace nouns in context, and since the only "her" mentioned in the context of the Force Pull ability, this "her" must be the Forcemaster. It cannot be a reference to any other creature... even another female FM.

While I cannot say with 100% certainty, pronouns such as his, her, himself, and son on, mean "controlling mage".

So force pull is designed to force a target, "to the controlling mage" and life link places that damage on the "controlling mage".

O how I miss the good old days where we thought that Warlords sweeping themselves was the strangest rule issue....
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Arkdeniz on November 28, 2018, 08:47:30 PM
So the situation we are left with is that if the target creature is between the Forcemaster and the Mind's Eye, a Force Pull can be used to push it away.

Okay then. Glad we sorted that out.
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Puddnhead on November 28, 2018, 09:36:34 PM
So the situation we are left with is that if the target creature is between the Forcemaster and the Mind's Eye, a Force Pull can be used to push it away.

Okay then. Glad we sorted that out.

Only if "pushing it away" makes it closer to the Forcemaster.  In which case, why have the Eye in the first place?

I still contend that "RAW" is the wrong choice here and that since we do not get any rulings from the designers anymore we have to decide for ourselves how it is to be interpreted. My FM will use a spell called "PULL" to always "PULL" thank you very much.  Way more consistent.
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Arkdeniz on November 28, 2018, 09:38:35 PM
Im with you, Puddn!
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: ininalia on November 29, 2018, 09:37:33 AM
Thank you for the answers.

I somewhat thought the same as Arkdeniz in his Life Link example, in that its not 100% clear that RAW is that her = This Forcemaster.

But from a Rule standpoint I think its the right way, so I will go with it.
So we will most likely play like this in Munich from now on.

It always must be pulled towards the Forcemaster Mage.
If you target something in the Zone of the Forcemaster it cant be pulled, so nothing happens.

Also nice to see that there are some active Members in this Forum still!

With best regards,
Ini
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Coshade on November 29, 2018, 11:32:14 AM
In general I prefer to play things by RAW when it comes to games. This discussion is really unique because it comes from a perspective of players that know "how the sausage gets made." with this set. You will see in some tournaments RAW get changed to the perspective of puddn, only because it was on the docket to get changed in an errata, but has not completed yet. If you are not sure which perspective to try it out as, I would suggest just playing as RAW to avoid explanation. But I would suggest trying it out with force pulling towards the source, just to see if you like it more or not. It does change the ability to have more uses, such as pulling the Forcemaster herself to allow a full Galvitar hit.
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: steack on November 30, 2018, 02:27:23 AM
 ;DWell , And now imagine a fight with two Forcemaster ^^ who is "her" ^^ ;D
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Zuberi on November 30, 2018, 06:54:18 AM
I feel obligated to first say that despite my reputation and some people's opinion to the contrary, I am not the arbiter of rules and am not an official response. This is merely my personal opinion.

I think the card text is not clear. The use of the pronoun and what it is referencing when the source of the spell is suddenly changed can be argued, and trying to argue it is not going to get us anywhere. I prefer Puddnhead's method in this case, looking at the intent.

Option A: Force Pull always pushes towards the Forcemaster. Nearly every situation under this option will end up working exactly how Force Pull has always worked, and was clearly intended to work. The only exceptions are if you target the Mage herself or any other creature in the same zone as her. In which case the two possible interpretations are that nothing happens, or that she may push the creature in any direction. I'm of the belief that nothing would happen. The reason for this is clearer when talking about other creatures in the zone with her, as pushing them out of the zone obviously doesn't follow the rules of the spell. They'd be moving further away, not nearer. The same is true when used on the Mage though. You are moving her away from her current location, not towards it. So basically, Option A uses the Mind's Eye to increase range but does not affect functionality.

Option B: Force Pull pushes towards the source, i.e. the Mind's Eye. This would be consistent with the rules for Pushes in general. Their direction is generally in reference to the source, not the caster. However, this grants Force Pull all sorts of new functionality, in addition to increased range. Obviously it now lets you pull things AWAY from the Forcemaster, which is the exact opposite of what it was originally supposed to do, and makes it much easier for the Mage to disengage and keep things a safe distance away. It also allows you to pull yourself, giving you increased mobility. I don't think there's any way to argue that this isn't as intended for Force Pull. But maybe it's the intent for Mind's Eye? Puddnhead references Reverse Magic and Reverse Attack, but that seems like a poor comparison to me. The effect of those spells isn't really changed. They've always targeted the source, and have had rulings on that going back to the core set and Chain Lightning. And casting them out of Mind's Eye doesn't change anything about them. The only thing happening there is the fact that Mind's Eye can trigger them.

Jet Stream is a better example. But here I think it's important to realize that this, and any other example you can come up with, aren't Mage Abilities. Any spell card you can point to as an example has the property of being a spell card, and thus designed with the idea in mind that it may be cast by a Familiar instead of by your Mage (Note, I recognize that Magecast spells exist, but I couldn't find any relevant to the discussion). That's not the case with Force Pull. It's initial design and intention was always that it would be pushing things towards the Mage.

That's why I think Option A is the right interpretation. It pushes them towards the Forcemaster, and if you target the Forcemaster herself or any other creature in her zone, it doesn't do anything. Not because it has the best argument grammatically with regards to the pronoun, but because it preserves game play and avoids unintentional uses of an ability.
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Puddnhead on November 30, 2018, 12:35:22 PM
Can we take a minute to understand that Force Pull is Force PULL.  Why is it less important that it actually PULLS rather than is relevant to the position of the Forcemaster?!

The only reason Force Pull is worded the way that it is is because they wanted to use the already extant Game Terminology of "push" instead of having to have a separate entry for "pull". Force Pull as a spell is intended to be a quick "yoink". The reason it costs 1 mana is because it is limited in direction and cannot push through passage attacks.

Why does the "yoink" FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE DIRECTION when a Mind's Eye casts it? This is preposterous. Mind's Eye CHANGED the RULES. I contend that PULL is more important to the intrinsic spell-ness of Force Pull than "her" is.

*rant snipped out* My views have been stated and the rules lawyers have spoken -- exit Puddnhead.
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Kelanen on November 30, 2018, 02:02:32 PM
I'm of the opinion that it should pull towards the minds Eye, but it needs a ruling one way or other written in stone...
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: farkas1 on November 30, 2018, 05:03:18 PM
Yea agree minds should pull towards minds eye.  I dont think it breaks the game having it work that way and makes minds eye more deadly.  I also agree thematically it makes since that way.
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: Zuberi on November 30, 2018, 05:07:33 PM
I don't think the fact that it "pulls" is less relevant. But it is intrinsically tied to the question of "pulling towards what?". You can't say whether it's a pull or a push without a frame of reference. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument seems to mostly be a thematic one at this point. But there are ways to imagine this to make thematic sense. Instead of some kind of lasso of force coming from the Mind's Eye and pulling the creature in that direction, think of it as a tether. The mind eye uses force energy to tether the Mage and the target creature together, and pull them closer to each other. Theme isn't my strong suit, but there are ways to explain it.

Meanwhile, I find it funny that we use a lot of the same points of contention but reach different conclusions. "The reason it costs 1 mana is because it is limited in direction..." is, to me, a good reason why the direction shouldn't be changed. "Why does the 'yoink' FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE DIRECTION when a Mind's Eye casts it?" It shouldn't. Which is why it should continue to pull the creature towards the Forcemaster. Doing otherwise would be a fundamental change in how the spell functions. That's the direction it was always designed to operate with. Giving it extra functionality and versatility without increasing it's cost seems like a poor idea to me.

Also, remember that the Mind's Eye isn't the caster. The Forcemaster is still the one casting it. So that might help your thematic disconnect. Maybe picture it as a hand of force that is magnetically/magically attracted to her that she just throws behind the target. She can use the Mind's Eye to help her plop it behind a target, but it is still drawn towards her, the caster. I think that is a better picture than my tether idea.
Title: Re: force pull through Mind's eye
Post by: wtcannonjr on November 30, 2018, 06:34:19 PM
If the community is voting for consensus, then my vote is to always pull toward the Forcemaster using her ability.

Rationale: it creates the smallest amount of change to the way the Forcemaster ability worked prior to release of Mind's Eye. The ability still pulls a creature toward the swirling Galvitar Force Blade intent on slicing it to pieces but now the ability has an extended range and can be used over top of walls.