Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => Strategy and Tactics => Topic started by: Iudicium86 on May 08, 2018, 06:39:58 AM

Title: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: Iudicium86 on May 08, 2018, 06:39:58 AM
For example, Cassiel is mega fragile. I've seen her go down very quickly, sometimes as soon as very next turn after being summoned, getting hit by a huge range attack such as thunderbolt or meteor from 3 range, or an air attack that gains bonus against flying, then pushes Cassiel into arena wall for that +3 dice bash attack on top of the 4+ die rolled for the wind attack.

I thought "Oh Guardian Angel has Intercept + a Defense roll". But of course, one second later hits "Flying lose flying until not guarding at all anymore, so no Intercept on Cassiel's behalf"  :(
Seriously, I think Cassiel is legit hindered by the Flying trait. It's way more a liability than bonus for her with her low HP and zero armor.
Ultra fragile, and an in-the-air target for everyone and their mother with no possible layers to at least get through first.

So is there anything that be done to protect fragile flyers other than stacking multiple +armors and defense enchantments on them like they're your main Aggro Mage or Aggro Buddy (but not)? Because that's a waste of actions and mana to protect something that's not front-line.
You would think a flying creature that chooses a guard action, could defend both sorts equally. Guard on ground as default, but can also guard a fellow flyer by swooping up quick for the attack.

I am close to just eating up the Spellbook Points and inserting a Main Wings curse, just to put it on Cassiel to ground her just to allow basic protection options such as Guarding with Intercept-capable creatures. Would be a better mana and action investment than Cassiel+Rhino Hide+Cobra Reflexes+Bull Endurance+more.
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: DaveW on May 08, 2018, 07:29:20 AM
You are correct... guarding with intercept doesn’t work. Either let them spend more mana and maybe actions on attacks against your fliers, or enchant them.

I had suggested a kind of “patrol” trait in the past... guarding only flying creatures... but that doesn’t seem to have gotten any notice.
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: werner on May 08, 2018, 07:39:25 AM
Dodge, Block, Brace Yourself, and Reverse Attack
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: silverclawgrizzly on May 08, 2018, 10:19:56 AM
Flyers are difficult to protect but things like Blur, Divine Reversal, and Redirect can get it done for cheap.
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: DevilsVendetta on May 08, 2018, 10:23:06 AM
It's a wasted turn and spell but have her guard and then tanglevine her.
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: Puddnhead on May 08, 2018, 10:23:23 AM
Agreed with everything said here.  For the Cassiel case in particular she can protect herself without your mage's actions.  Give her Glancing Blow, Divine Reversal or Healing Charm and she can cast it on herself.  It keeps  her around long enough to eat a meteor and survive that's a huge win.

Honestly, though, if your opponent is throwing a Meteor or a Thunderbolt at her you win that trade.  Just don't make losing Cassiel cripple you.  Also the absolute best way to protect her from range 3 garbage is Blur as Grizzly just said.

Additionally, she is practically immune to all water attack spells due to flying and cannot be tanglevined or stranglefined or killed by typical swarms.  Flying is really good.
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: wtcannonjr on May 08, 2018, 05:18:52 PM
You could try Gravikor to keep her out of the sky, but it would impact your Angels/Griffins as well until the were out of range.
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: Biblofilter on May 08, 2018, 11:31:17 PM
I considered using Maim Wings for Fellella, Pixie Familiar.

I think you could wait until they target Cassiel/Fellella, Pixie Familiar then reveal Maim Wings.

If you have a Mage Wand you could use Shift Enchantment and put Maim Wings on your mage when you need Cassiel/Fellella, Pixie Familiar flying again.

Enchantment Transfusion would work as well.



Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: zot on May 09, 2018, 06:42:44 PM
would have to check, but I don't think maim can target a mage, but could be wrong. I think everyone is missing the very simple answer here. just put in a second cassiel.
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: silverclawgrizzly on May 09, 2018, 07:16:39 PM
Yes it can. Targets a creature.
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: DaveW on May 10, 2018, 09:11:08 AM
I find it interesting that you can't give a creature flying (through Eagle Wings, or whatever it is) in the middle of an action, but can reveal Maim Wings in the middle of one. Am I mistaken?
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: iNano78 on May 10, 2018, 11:25:55 AM
Yes it can. Targets a creature.

Maim Wings targets a Corporeal Creature, actually.

Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: DaveW on May 10, 2018, 06:12:12 PM
I find it interesting that you can't give a creature flying (through Eagle Wings, or whatever it is) in the middle of an action, but can reveal Maim Wings in the middle of one. Am I mistaken?

Now I wonder about this idea of using Maim Wings to counter an attack on a Flying Creature, as mentioned earlier. I just re-read this:

"A creature cannot gain or lose the Flying trait in the middle of an attack action."

I presume that this can mean any creature's attack action. If so, then the Maim Wings spell is unable to be revealed until after the creature has been attacked.
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: Zuberi on May 11, 2018, 08:57:31 PM
Maim Wings and Eagle Wings can both be revealed during an attack, they just won't have any affect until the attack is finished. Which is kind of splitting hairs, it would be much easier to say they can't be revealed until the attack is finished, but if someone screws up and does reveal during an attack, they haven't really broken any rules or suffer any repercussions, they just have to wait till the end of the attack before the enchantment actually takes affect.
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: Biblofilter on May 12, 2018, 01:27:21 AM
But is a spell an attack action?

Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: wtcannonjr on May 12, 2018, 08:51:05 AM
But is a spell an attack action?
One interpretation is that casting an Attack spell creates an Attack Action once it resolves, but I don't recall if the RAW uses this wording specifically.
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: Biblofilter on May 12, 2018, 01:30:03 PM
If casting an attack spell is not an attack action you could reveal maim wings (and loose flying) in one of the cast spell steps?
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: Arkdeniz on May 12, 2018, 04:56:53 PM
Seems pretty clear to me that casting an attack spell creates an attack action after the spell resolves.

From the codex (and also the rules supplement): "An attack action is a creature action used to make an attack."
From the rule book (pg 23): "When you cast an attack spell, it is both a spell and an attack. First, follow all steps for casting. Then, if the spell is not countered, you must resolve the attack, following the steps for attacking."

So no, couldn't reveal maim wings during the cast spell action - as the attack spell is still an attack (merely with some additional preliminary steps)




Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: Biblofilter on May 12, 2018, 07:13:08 PM
Seems pretty clear to me that casting an attack spell creates an attack action after the spell resolves.

From the codex (and also the rules supplement): "An attack action is a creature action used to make an attack."
From the rule book (pg 23): "When you cast an attack spell, it is both a spell and an attack. First, follow all steps for casting. Then, if the spell is not countered, you must resolve the attack, following the steps for attacking."

So no, couldn't reveal maim wings during the cast spell action - as the attack spell is still an attack (merely with some additional preliminary steps)

Thats not how i have been understanding this.

CAST SPELL ACTION
1. Declare spell
2. Pay cost
3. Counter Spell
4. Resolve Spell

ATTACK ACTION
1. Declare attack
2. Pay cost
3. Roll to miss
4. Avoid attack
5. Roll Dice
6. Damage & Effects
7. Additional Strikes
8. Damage Barrier
9. Counterstrike
10. Attack Ends

If i reveal Maim Wings in the cast spell action between step 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 or 3 and 4 that would before the spell resolves and becomes an attack action.

Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: Iudicium86 on May 12, 2018, 07:25:36 PM
Seems pretty clear to me that casting an attack spell creates an attack action after the spell resolves.

From the codex (and also the rules supplement): "An attack action is a creature action used to make an attack."
From the rule book (pg 23): "When you cast an attack spell, it is both a spell and an attack. First, follow all steps for casting. Then, if the spell is not countered, you must resolve the attack, following the steps for attacking."

So no, couldn't reveal maim wings during the cast spell action - as the attack spell is still an attack (merely with some additional preliminary steps)

Thats not how i have been understanding this.

CAST SPELL ACTION
1. Declare spell
2. Pay cost
3. Counter Spell
4. Resolve Spell

ATTACK ACTION
1. Declare attack
2. Pay cost
3. Roll to miss
4. Avoid attack
5. Roll Dice
6. Damage & Effects
7. Additional Strikes
8. Damage Barrier
9. Counterstrike
10. Attack Ends

If i reveal Maim Wings in the cast spell action between step 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 or 3 and 4 that would before the spell resolves and becomes an attack action.


Interesting view. And follows Rules as Written.

I always thought of it as a mash-up of a spell and an attack. Something more like.

[SPELL] ATTACK ACTION
1. Declare attack [Spell]
2. Pay cost
3. Roll to miss
4. Avoid attack (or Counter spell)
5. Roll Dice
6. Damage & Effects
7. Additional Strikes
8. Damage Barrier
9. Counterstrike
10. Attack Ends
Title: Re: Any way to protect a flying creature?
Post by: Arkdeniz on May 12, 2018, 10:40:16 PM

CAST SPELL ACTION
1. Declare spell
2. Pay cost
3. Counter Spell
4. Resolve Spell

ATTACK ACTION
1. Declare attack
2. Pay cost
3. Roll to miss
4. Avoid attack
5. Roll Dice
6. Damage & Effects
7. Additional Strikes
8. Damage Barrier
9. Counterstrike
10. Attack Ends

If i reveal Maim Wings in the cast spell action between step 1 and 2 or 2 and 3 or 3 and 4 that would before the spell resolves and becomes an attack action.

That makes a certain gamey sense. However, on reading more closely, allow me to counter with this:

Codex: "An attack action is a creature's action (quick or full) used to make an attack"
Rules (pg 23): When you cast an attack spell, it is both a spell and an attack."

So, by way of example, a wizard uses his quick action to cast a lightning bolt attack spell.
Since the attack spell is both a spell and an attack (as per rulebook), he is therefore using his quick action to make an attack (as per the Codex). So as soon as he casts the Lightning Bolt, we are in an Attack Action.
As you cannot gain or lose flying during an Attack Action, revealing Maim Wings during the Cast Spell Action steps of the Lightning Bolt's resolution will not avail - the attack action has started

I think this makes more sense in terms of consistency and faireness ("What do you mean I can drop Felella behind a wall to avoid a fireball, but not to avoid a catapult stone? How does that work?" and so on.)

However, this game being what it is, there is quite a high likelihood that the writers have inadvertently used "Attack Action" in two or more different ways.

Does the key rule about flying (pg15) refer to "Attack Action" as per the Codex' definition (as I think) or to the formal set of steps listed under "Attack Action" on the back of the rulebook (as you think)? It is for better minds than mine to decide.

(Interestingly, I note that the Attack Action table on the back of the rulebook is not replicated inside the rulebook. While the same table appears on page 23, it has a different title ("Making an Attack"). Make of that what you will.)