Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => General Discussion => Topic started by: Karadox on August 14, 2018, 03:03:11 AM

Title: The Killer Bees
Post by: Karadox on August 14, 2018, 03:03:11 AM
The Killer Bees are a mistake that you could easily have avoided.
Killer bees can cause on living creature massive damage, such as stinging a bear in the nose, but undead or non-living objects?
Therefore, they should cause poison damage and the problem is solved.

What I also can not understand why Resilient in Academy was not introduced as a keyword.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Arkdeniz on August 14, 2018, 05:04:13 AM
Hear hear!
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Robintheboywonder on August 14, 2018, 08:45:51 AM
The other option is that it only critical hits living objects but it rolls normal damage against nonliving. That way its not poison damage, so it could still hit nonliving creatures but it doesnt auto crit them.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Beldin on August 14, 2018, 06:54:01 PM
What I also can not understand why Resilient in Academy was not introduced as a keyword.

One of the complaints that has come back is that there are too many keywords in Mage Wars, so Academy tends to have card text that explains the keyword instead of the actual keyword itself.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Kelanen on August 17, 2018, 06:51:01 AM
What I also can not understand why Resilient in Academy was not introduced as a keyword.

One of the complaints that has come back is that there are too many keywords in Mage Wars, so Academy tends to have card text that explains the keyword instead of the actual keyword itself.

Yep. There are lots of things in Academy that we thought should use the Arena keywords, but most were turned down. And on the basis of pushback against keywords on these forums and BGG. Personally, I think keywords is the only way to go in a game like this (and any CCG or wargame), and if you don't like them it's the wrong game for you...

Not using the Arena keywords creates lots of issues with Academy cards in Arena also...
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Karadox on August 17, 2018, 09:12:43 AM
Kelanen I think just like you.
For me it doesn't make any sense to don't make use of the keywords.

I like all the keywords and conditions, especially the poison, burn and now frost conditions
 make Mage Wars for me so special in contrast to MtG for example.

The plant creatures I find well solved hydro immunity was probably too strong and that they do not have flames +2, is ok.

 I'm looking forward to the zombies for The Academy Necromancer, will thay have lumbering or bloodthirsty?
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: exid on August 17, 2018, 10:56:34 AM
i think key words are very important.
i often criticise the fact that MW has many very similar keywords that should be replaced by one (example: "critical wound" for burn, bleed, rot, etc.).

what they did in academy is eliminate keywords... that brings a lot of problems...
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Kelanen on August 18, 2018, 09:54:33 AM
I'm looking forward to the zombies for The Academy Necromancer, will thay have lumbering or bloodthirsty?

I can't comment on specific cards, but I wouldn't expect to see any traits affecting movement in a game with only a single zone...
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Karadox on August 18, 2018, 11:28:45 AM
Then we will not get "the walking dead" zombies but the ones from "28 Days Later", ...

Then I would almost prefer in academy we would not get new zombies.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: SirJasonCrage on August 18, 2018, 04:05:51 PM
I'd guess we're gonna get more Mummies. Zombies are already pretty diverse, on top of the ability to zombify more other creatures.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Karadox on August 19, 2018, 01:51:22 AM
I also think we still get 1-2 mummies, but mummies should be high level creatures level 3+.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: exid on August 19, 2018, 08:07:13 AM
why high level?
you can get a mummy of a servant or a cat, not only pharaos!
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Karadox on August 19, 2018, 12:38:55 PM
According to my understanding, mummys are stronger undeads, because not everybody becomes embalming.

But it could also give minor mummys as you say.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: exid on August 19, 2018, 01:14:51 PM
 :D
we could debate... does the power come from the personality of the dead or from the talent of the embalmer?
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Karadox on August 19, 2018, 01:40:35 PM
For me the power comes from the personality of the dead, the embalmer only
preserved the body. :)

The same is true for zombies a necromancer can only resurrect what he found on dead bodies.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: isel on August 28, 2018, 02:44:58 PM
Ive read that bees gain Life from the three of the druid, bit the tree put that affect living creatures and conjurations and the bees dont have living in any place. Can Anyone explain?
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Robintheboywonder on August 28, 2018, 04:00:44 PM
In the rules creatures are always living unless otherwise stated, and conjurations are always nonliving unless otherwise stated. Killer bees are a creature therefore they are inherently living.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: isel on August 29, 2018, 08:57:11 AM
In the rules creatures are always living unless otherwise stated, and conjurations are always nonliving unless otherwise stated. Killer bees are a creature therefore they are inherently living.

Are they inmune to idol of pestilence and similar spells?
How many damage they suffer if you use an attack zone as ring of fire?
Do they sufer damage for a cloud of poison in one zone?
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: RomeoXero on August 29, 2018, 10:11:32 AM
Its pretty simple guys. If they get attacked by ANYTHING but a zone attack (a la ring of fire, electrify, rain of stones, akiros hammer etc) and that attack deals any damage, they take one damage. If it IS  a zone attack, they take full damage at whatever the dice for the attack rolled. If that's enough to kill them then they die.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: wtcannonjr on August 29, 2018, 10:35:23 AM
Its pretty simple guys. If they get attacked by ANYTHING but a zone attack (a la ring of fire, electrify, rain of stones, akiros hammer etc) and that attack deals any damage, they take one damage. If it IS  a zone attack, they take full damage at whatever the dice for the attack rolled. If that's enough to kill them then they die.
This addresses how attack spells work with the Swarm trait.

However, I don't know if we have official clarification on how effects that deal damage from other spell types work with the Swarm trait. I don't have the set to confirm codex language, but my understanding was that other spells needed to specifically mention the Swarm trait for their effects to work. If that is true, then Idol of Pestilence, etc. would have no effect on Creatures with the Swarm trait.

I think this is part of what Isel is looking to confirm with his questions.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: isel on August 29, 2018, 10:36:55 AM
Its pretty simple guys. If they get attacked by ANYTHING but a zone attack (a la ring of fire, electrify, rain of stones, akiros hammer etc) and that attack deals any damage, they take one damage. If it IS  a zone attack, they take full damage at whatever the dice for the attack rolled. If that's enough to kill them then they die.
This addresses how attack spells work with the Swarm trait.

However, I don't know if we have official clarification on how effects that deal damage from other spell types work with the Swarm trait. I don't have the set to confirm codex language, but my understanding was that other spells needed to specifically mention the Swarm trait for their effects to work. If that is true, then Idol of Pestilence, etc. would have no effect on Creatures with the Swarm trait.

I think this is part of what Isel is looking to confirm with his questions.

Yes, Thanks, i hope this can be confirmed because the bees seems be too powerfull
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: exid on August 29, 2018, 12:57:50 PM
does somebody have the rule text for swarm?
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Kharhaz on August 29, 2018, 01:15:53 PM
does somebody have the rule text for swarm?

Swarm
This creature is made up of countless Smaller creatures.  Creatures with the swarm trait cannot guard and cannot be targeted or affected by non-attack spells that do not specifically target swarm creatures.  When attacking, Creatures with swarm trait may make additional strikes equal to their remaining health.   Additionally, they are immune to conditions, and have the finite life trait. Non zone attacks do a maximum of 1 damage to them.


Non-attack spells require swarm in their targeting line to effect them.

Conjurations still function normally, so idol of pestilence will deal 1 damage each round to swarms.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Jeffman on August 29, 2018, 03:19:55 PM
Why?

Arent conjurations non-attack spells?

It says cant be targeted or affected by non-attack spells

Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Zuberi on August 29, 2018, 04:07:36 PM
Conjurations, Creatures, Enchantments, and Equipment are all spells that turn into objects after they are cast. As spells, they absolutely cannot target or affect Swarms, so you can't cast Tanglevine on a Swarm, for example. However, after they've been cast and they turn into objects, it's a little different. They kind of have to be able to affect swarms, because otherwise creatures couldn't target swarms or affect them, making them immune to virtually everything except attack spells. That would be seriously problematic.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Kharhaz on August 29, 2018, 04:17:50 PM
Why?

Arent conjurations non-attack spells?

It says cant be targeted or affected by non-attack spells

Beat me to It Zuberi!


A Conjuration is a non attack spell. Correct; then you cast it.

Once that conjuration spell resolved successfuly it became an object. An object, and this is the important part, is not a spell. Swarms cannot be affected / targeted by non-attack spells.

So you cannot ccast Tanglevine on a creature with the swarm trait, that conjuration spell does not target swarms, but you can affect it with Etherian Life Tree, Deathlock, and the zone attack from akiros hammer since they're objects and no longer need to target the swarm creature for their effects to take effect.

An example for clarity is the ever popular Burst of Thorns
burst targets a vine marker, that vine marker makes that attack against a swarm. The incantation isn't targeting the swarm so good on that end.

While on the subject lets take a look at Force WaveWave does not target a creature, but a zone. However it is always a spell and never an object. So the swarm would not be able to be affected by Force Wave.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Arkdeniz on August 29, 2018, 08:29:08 PM
While on the subject lets take a look at Force WaveWave does not target a creature, but a zone. However it is always a spell and never an object. So the swarm would not be able to be affected by Force Wave.

Which takes me back to a statement I made in a different post, that a Force Wave can move things like a Rhinoceros or Adramelech or Thorg, but cannot touch a swarm of bees or a trail of ants, and that this seems very off to me.
 
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Kharhaz on August 30, 2018, 12:02:09 AM
While on the subject lets take a look at Force WaveWave does not target a creature, but a zone. However it is always a spell and never an object. So the swarm would not be able to be affected by Force Wave.

Which takes me back to a statement I made in a different post, that a Force Wave can move things like a Rhinoceros or Adramelech or Thorg, but cannot touch a swarm of bees or a trail of ants, and that this seems very off to me.

It can move a single bee or two, but not the entire swarm?
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Arkdeniz on August 30, 2018, 02:59:19 AM
But it targets the zone. The entire swarm of bees is in the zone.

#grumbles #makesnosense
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Kaarin on August 30, 2018, 08:29:12 AM
And it can push entire swarm of creatures.
Title: Re: The Killer Bees
Post by: Jeffman on August 30, 2018, 11:48:55 AM
Thanks for the clarification!