Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => Alternative Play => Topic started by: jacksmack on June 01, 2019, 12:40:50 PM

Title: Oboko Spellbook point price (FM and Paladin) needs update
Post by: jacksmack on June 01, 2019, 12:40:50 PM
Oboko is a mind creature AND a holy creature. This meets the requirement for both mages.

Paladin Training: Trained in Holy level 3, War level 2, and all Holy Creatures. Dark Spells cost triple.
(Oboko is holy)

Forcemaster Training: Trained in the Mind school of Magic. Non-Mind creature spells cost triple during spellbook construction.
(Oboko is not non-mind... he is mind.)


Oboko cost for the Paladin and Forcemaster are currently on OCTGN priced 5 and 4 respectively.
Both are wrong. They both get him for 3 SBP each.
Title: Re: Oboko Spellbook point price (FM and Paladin) needs update
Post by: wtcannonjr on June 01, 2019, 06:24:16 PM
I agree with the OCTGN calculations.

Oboko is Holy, level 1 and Mind, level 2.

So Paladin with training in Holy Creatures only pays single sbp cost for Holy creatures but pays double or triple costs for other schools per the training rules. So Holy = 1x1 + Mind = 2x2 for total 5 sbp. Holy Creature training only allows all levels of Holy school on a Creature spell to count as single cost for spellbook point calculations. It does not impact other school training calculations. For the Mind part of this spell you need to use the regular training rules. If Holy was a sub-type of Oboko, then your calculation would be correct. For an example of this type of training calculation consider Pirate creatures with the Siren's training.

So Forcemaster with training in Mind School and Weakness in all Non-Mind School creature spells pays single sbp for Mind and double or triple for other schools depending on if the Mind school is part of the creature. So in this case Mind = 2x1 + Holy = 1x2 for total 4 sbp
Title: Re: Oboko Spellbook point price (FM and Paladin) needs update
Post by: jacksmack on June 01, 2019, 10:38:37 PM
I'd like an official response to this.

I get how you calculate Devils Trident (1 dark 1 fire) to 3 points for a necromancer, 2 points for warlocks, 4 points for a FM / wizard / Siren, and 5 points for a Paladin / beastmaster / druid / Priests.

But IMO your comparing apples to oranges wtfcannonjr.

When your trained in a specific school of creatures i think its different.
Title: Re: Oboko Spellbook point price (FM and Paladin) needs update
Post by: DaveW on June 01, 2019, 11:14:42 PM
This obviously isn't the official answer you are looking for, but I find it interesting... I have always considered the training in all Holy creatures to mean that you could pay one sbp for each Holy level (and not limited to just three Holy levels) and double (or triple?) for other schools for the same creature... but... is there a difference between being trained in a set of Creatures... any creature with Holy as one of its schools would then qualify... I think I'd agree with the OP... but I would imagine what was meant was for the creature to be priced per OCTGN. Yet another oddity apparently not very well thought out....
Title: Re: Oboko Spellbook point price (FM and Paladin) needs update
Post by: wtcannonjr on June 02, 2019, 09:14:29 AM
I'd like an official response to this.

I get how you calculate Devils Trident (1 dark 1 fire) to 3 points for a necromancer, 2 points for warlocks, 4 points for a FM / wizard / Siren, and 5 points for a Paladin / beastmaster / druid / Priests.

But IMO your comparing apples to oranges wtfcannonjr.

When your in a specific school of creatures i think its different.
What training rule leads you to believe that the addition of the term Creature (which is only one of six spell types) would change the logic of the other training rules?

For me I consider that being trained in Holy spells means I pay single sbp costs for all Holy levels that apply to any spell card I put in my spellbook. Other schools on the same spell card would then have their training cost calculated using the rules for non-trained SCHOOLS. The training rules do not allow me to pay single costs for other Schools on the card even though it is considered a Holy spell. For example, consider how much a Priestess would pay for a Holy & War school creature. This is considered a Holy spell but the training rules are applied on a school by school basis.

Being trained in Holy Creature spells means that Holy School levels on Creature spells only cost single level spellpoints to place in your book. I read the rule as a training rule exception for only a single spell type. I don't see any rule change that states the other schools on the spell are treated differently for training purposes. For the Paladin, his limitation of Holy level 3 training would then apply to all other spell types but not the Creature spells. In my reading of the rules this has no impact on the other Schools listed on the card which would follow the basic training rules. It is only an exception on how the training rules for the Holy school are applied to Creature spells and nothing more.

Compare this with the training rules for sub-types. I don't have the specific wording handy but I believe they have the added logic that you feel applies in this case at the Creature level. i.e. The specific examples of training rules for a sub-type or Creature sub-type does provide training in ALL schools on that card. For me the added rules were necessary for sub-types since the training language does not reference a specific school and we would have no way to calculate spellpoint costs using the basic training rules. So, a new rule needed to be added so that we can apply the basic school-based training rules to the sub-type training case. However, I don't see any rule that applies this sub-type logic to the entire spell type. Therefore, the base rules would still apply in those cases.

An official clarification would be fine.
Title: Re: Oboko Spellbook point price (FM and Paladin) needs update
Post by: jacksmack on June 02, 2019, 09:17:33 AM
Short answer:
Just like siren is schooled in all pirates I read it as the paladin is schooled in all holy creatures - not just the “part” of them that holy.
Similar with FM.
Title: Re: Oboko Spellbook point price (FM and Paladin) needs update
Post by: DevilsVendetta on June 02, 2019, 12:58:30 PM
Not official, but I believe this was discussed on the discord. If you have any level in a school for a creature, you are considered a creature of that school. It's why you can summon a Holy 1/Mind 2 creature through a Holy Spawnpoint and thus why these creatures would cost base if you are specifically trained in a creature type. Holy being a type in this case.
Title: Re: Oboko Spellbook point price (FM and Paladin) needs update
Post by: Puddnhead on June 02, 2019, 02:24:23 PM
I will speak with the confidence of an official.

Paladin pays 3 spellbook points for oboko, and Forcemaster pays 4.

A spell is considered to be a particular school if it has at least one level of that school. Therefore:
1) Oboko is a holy creature. Paladin is trained in holy creatures and pays 3 points.
2) Oboko is a mind creature and Forcemaster does not pay triple. Therefore she pays 4 (trained in mind, untrained in holy).

I hope that clears it up.
Title: Re: Oboko Spellbook point price (FM and Paladin) needs update
Post by: DaveW on June 02, 2019, 02:44:45 PM
Oh, I get it on the FM now... right... the creature is not Non-mind, so doesn't cost triple, but the single sbp cost only applies to the Mind levels as that is the only training... the other level costs double since it isn't trained in Holy... so it ends up being 4 total sbp....

Great question!
Title: Re: Oboko Spellbook point price (FM and Paladin) needs update
Post by: jacksmack on June 02, 2019, 03:20:38 PM
Its clear now - thanks Puddin and Dave.
Title: Re: Oboko Spellbook point price (FM and Paladin) needs update
Post by: wtcannonjr on June 03, 2019, 06:24:08 AM
I will speak with the confidence of an official.

Paladin pays 3 spellbook points for oboko, and Forcemaster pays 4.

A spell is considered to be a particular school if it has at least one level of that school. Therefore:
1) Oboko is a holy creature. Paladin is trained in holy creatures and pays 3 points.
2) Oboko is a mind creature and Forcemaster does not pay triple. Therefore she pays 4 (trained in mind, untrained in holy).

I hope that clears it up.
Thanks for clearing this up.

I will have to rewire my logic. I thought the Priestess/Priest was trained in all Holy spells including Holy Creatures. This ruling changes that training interpretation. It makes training in a specific spell type more powerful than training in a specific spell school at least in terms of building a spellbook.
Title: Re: Oboko Spellbook point price (FM and Paladin) needs update
Post by: Puddnhead on June 03, 2019, 08:21:05 AM
I will speak with the confidence of an official.

Paladin pays 3 spellbook points for oboko, and Forcemaster pays 4.

A spell is considered to be a particular school if it has at least one level of that school. Therefore:
1) Oboko is a holy creature. Paladin is trained in holy creatures and pays 3 points.
2) Oboko is a mind creature and Forcemaster does not pay triple. Therefore she pays 4 (trained in mind, untrained in holy).

I hope that clears it up.
Thanks for clearing this up.

I will have to rewire my logic. I thought the Priestess/Priest was trained in all Holy spells including Holy Creatures. This ruling changes that training interpretation. It makes training in a specific spell type more powerful than training in a specific spell school at least in terms of building a spellbook.

A slight, but very important, distinction is that Priestess and Priest are trained in the Holy school and not in Holy spells. So, correct that the Paladin gets multi-school creatures (as long as one of the schools involved is Holy) more cheaply. However, he is not trained in the Holy school past level 3 which means if he wants to take Resurrection (lvl 4) he must pay 8 spellbook points for it.  Additionally, and perhaps more relevantly, he is not trained in the War school beyond level 2 which means he pays 2 points for a Wychwood Ranger, but 6 points for a Dwarf Panzerguard.