Arcane Wonders Forum

Mage Wars => Spells => Topic started by: Tacullu64 on February 24, 2013, 12:26:54 AM

Title: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on February 24, 2013, 12:26:54 AM
I want to make sure I understand the Forcemaster's Forcefield enchantment. It says in the text of Forcefield that whenever you are attacked, before the avoid attack step you must remove a token, if you do, that attack is canceled. So, my questions are:

1.  Does it cancels melee and ranged attacks?

2.  Does it cancel unavoidable attacks since it is not "avoiding" the attack using a defense?

3.  Does it cancel the portion of a zone attack that attacks the Forcemaster? This is the one I'm least sure of since a zone attack doesn't target the Forcemaster, but it does still attack her.

If it does all three it's a really strong spell. Actually, if it just does the first two its a strong spell.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: piousflea on February 24, 2013, 12:24:05 PM
1) Yes.

2) Yes. It is specifically not an "Avoid Attack" mechanic, so unavoidable has no effect.

3) Yes, I think. From what I understand, a zone attack is no different from declaring a bunch of attacks in one action. Therefore, if you Firestormed a zone with the Forcefielded Forcemaster and two thoughtspores, the Firestorm would hit both thoughtspores but not the Forcemaster.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on February 24, 2013, 12:33:40 PM
That is the way I'm reading it. I just wanted to hear it from someone else as that makes Forcefield significantly better than I originally thought.

I might actually put a second in the spellbook now, but I'm not sure. In my initial assessment I figured there was no way it would get dispelled because of cost. It still seems unlikely, but now I'm not as sure.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on February 24, 2013, 12:38:19 PM
Zone attacks are very diffrent from declaring a bunch of attacks.(see below)
Zone Attacks always target a zone,never a creature or object. Therefore, abilities and traits that allow a target to react when it is the target of an attack do not apply against a Zone Attack. Zone attacks always have the Unavoidable trait, so Defenses have no effect against them. Page 23 of the original rule book.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on February 24, 2013, 12:38:25 PM
:blink: double post??? :silly:
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on February 24, 2013, 12:43:24 PM
And as of right now I cannot get to my forcefield card, or I would have a better understanding and would in turn answer your questions to the best of my knowledge.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on February 24, 2013, 01:12:22 PM
Quote from: "DarthDadaD20" post=7971
Zone attacks are very diffrent from declaring a bunch of attacks.(see below)
Zone Attacks always target a zone,never a creature or object. Therefore, abilities and traits that allow a target to react when it is the target of an attack do not apply against a Zone Attack. Zone attacks always have the Unavoidable trait, so Defenses have no effect against them. Page 23 of the original rule book.


A zone attack targets a zone but makes individual attacks against the creatures in that zone. The Forcefield is triggered by the Forcemaster being attacked. So it seems like there is a chance it would work against zone attacks.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on February 24, 2013, 01:29:17 PM
@DarthDadaD20

Forcefield text.

Upkeep +2    Forcemaster Only
Forcefield starts with 3 forcefield tokens on it. During the upkeep phase it gains one token, to a maximum of 3. Whenever you are attacked, before the avoid attack step, you must remove a token. If you do, that attack is canceled.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on February 24, 2013, 01:48:20 PM
Since Forcefield doesn't say Targeted, But the rules for zone state, "Therefore, abilities and traits that allow a target to react when it is the target of an attack do not apply against a Zone Attack." Forcefield is an reaction, I dont fell comfortable giving you an answer, sorry. Im sure a Moderator or Arcanus will answer shortly. I want to say, yes. It will work agents zones as a kind of card Exceptions override the basic rules but...
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on February 24, 2013, 02:00:59 PM
Quote from: "DarthDadaD20" post=7981
Since Forcefield doesn't say Targeted, But the rules for zone state, "Therefore, abilities and traits that allow a target to react when it is the target of an attack do not apply against a Zone Attack." Forcefield is an reaction, I dont fell comfortable giving you an answer, sorry. Im sure a Moderator or Arcanus will answer shortly. I want to say, yes. It will work agents zones as a kind of card Exceptions override the basic rules but...


Yep, I'm hopeful that it works like I think but there just enough wiggle room I can't be sure.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: piousflea on February 24, 2013, 02:33:29 PM
I think the text is quite clear.

It does not use "avoid attack" mechanic and it does not require you to be targeted by an attack. It simply says, "when you are attacked".

It seems to me that Arcane Wonders wrote the card in a very specific manner so that it would apply to Zone attacks. (Unlike every other defense in the game)
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on February 24, 2013, 02:45:57 PM
I'm guessing it also works against damage barriers. Which could be a negative in that it would use up the force field tokens quicker.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on February 24, 2013, 05:10:46 PM
Well as for damage barriers, They only have 2 steps to follow when attacking: 1) Roll Dice
and 2) Damage and Effects. So with damage barriers having no avoid attack step,no. It cannot work against damage barriers. But for everything else,by the best of my card game text reading ability,that is what I would think. and would go with for now, unless told otherwise.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Paleblue on February 24, 2013, 06:15:56 PM
Seems like a very powerful card taking into consideration the only way to get around it is dispel or bash your way through.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on February 24, 2013, 06:40:29 PM
Quote from: "Paleblue" post=7993
Seems like a very powerful card taking into consideration the only way to get around it is dispel or bash your way through.


Yes it is. Mostly I think it will encourage diversity in spellbooks. It's pretty powerful against a fighting mage and a super creature but not as strong against a bunch of small creatures. Interesting that it was sold with the warlord as an opponent huh?
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: piousflea on February 24, 2013, 10:19:58 PM
Forcefield costs 12 mana to start (for 3 charges), which is 4 mana per charge (Same as 3 Blocks), and then costs 2 mana upkeep every round (for 1 charge).

If the forcefield is constantly soaking hits, it is amazingly mana efficient. If the forcefield sits at 3 charges for a while (for example, your opponent is killing your creatures and only using curses on your Mage) then its mana efficiency falls off.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: halvor on February 25, 2013, 04:02:48 PM
I would say the forcefield does block damage barriers. You are being attacked so it is blocked. It says before the avoid attack step, as a clarifying point, I don't think an avoid attack step is required.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on February 25, 2013, 04:24:09 PM
The card Forcefield says "before the avoid attack step" Damage barriers only follow:1) Roll Dice
and 2) Damage and Effects. so you could be right. I would think it could not since these steps are after the avoid attack step, but Im not sure, you could be right.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: baronzaltor on February 26, 2013, 03:42:16 PM
If you happen to be running Push and Wall of Thorns you can wipe all those charges off in one play.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on February 26, 2013, 04:19:31 PM
Quote from: "baronzaltor" post=8147
If you happen to be running Push and Wall of Thorns you can wipe all those charges off in one play.


Yep, so far in Mage Wars there is an answer for everything, the only question is did you but it in your spellbook. I know there is only the core set of cards and one expansion so far, but the developers deserve a lot of credit for the game balance.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Klaxas on February 26, 2013, 04:53:10 PM
and the playtesters!

forcefield is one of those cards that had tons of discussion and was changing constantly.  im very happy with where it ended up
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Shad0w on February 26, 2013, 10:33:49 PM
Agreed it was a hard card to balance correctly
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Douglas_Anders on February 28, 2013, 08:42:59 AM
So, officially the Forcefield does block unavoidable attacks?
(I'm gonna get some argument from my son on this one -- he loves to use the Akiro's Hammer against my Forcemaster)
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on February 28, 2013, 08:49:49 AM
Quote from: "Douglas_Anders" post=8265
So, officially the Forcefield does block unavoidable attacks?
(I'm gonna get some argument from my son on this one -- he loves to use the Akiro's Hammer against my Forcemaster)


Although I'm not official, I would say that lack of a rebuttal from shadow means you could take it as official. I am. Plus the card text definitely supports that assertion.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on February 28, 2013, 08:54:16 AM
Quote from: "Douglas_Anders" post=8265
So, officially the Forcefield does block unavoidable attacks?
(I'm gonna get some argument from my son on this one -- he loves to use the Akiro's Hammer against my Forcemaster)

Yes. The Forcefield is not defense, kind of like the Helm of Fear, Its more of a counter.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Douglas_Anders on February 28, 2013, 09:04:04 AM
Awesome. Finally, I'll win a game.

There's going to be a very sad ten-year-old boy in Toledo, Ohio tonight.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on February 28, 2013, 09:29:34 AM
Quote from: "Douglas_Anders" post=8273
Awesome. Finally, I'll win a game.

There's going to be a very sad ten-year-old boy in Toledo, Ohio tonight.

 :cheer:  Im sorry, but that remark just made my day!  :cheer:
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Shad0w on February 28, 2013, 10:54:38 AM
Quote from: "DarthDadaD20" post=8267
Quote from: "Douglas_Anders" post=8265
So, officially the Forcefield does block unavoidable attacks?
(I'm gonna get some argument from my son on this one -- he loves to use the Akiro's Hammer against my Forcemaster)

Yes. The Forcefield is not defense, kind of like the Helm of Fear, Its more of a counter.


2nd gold star today  :P  :P
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on February 28, 2013, 11:09:33 AM
:woohoo: First I hear about the shattering a ten year old boys hopes, and then two gold stars!!!! There was the birth of my son...and then there was this moment...
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Aquila on March 10, 2013, 08:56:56 AM
Okay so far, but what's with the damage barrier?
Does the forcefield prevent damage in this case or not?
I read the posts, but could'nt find a final solution on that! Are you attacked by a damage barrier? Because if, forcefield will deal with it!

By the way, the idea with wall of thorns and force push is quite neat! :)
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Shad0w on March 10, 2013, 10:20:12 AM
Force Field only uses charges after step 1 before step 2.

1. Declare Attack
(Force Field)

2. Avoid Attack

3. Roll Dice

4. Damage and Effects
5. Additional Strikes
6. Damage Barrier (Triggers in this step. When the barrier resolves it only uses steps 4 & 5 then you go to step 7)

7. Counterstrike
8. Attack Ends

So the barrier would not eat away at the charges. ;)

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on March 13, 2013, 09:08:36 PM
I played the warlord vs the forcemaster the other day. It was my first play against the forcemaster and of course she cast the Forcefield. We were using the base spellbooks so I could have just dispelled it and not have to worry about a second, but this seemed unfair. So, I took the opportunity to try and beat my way through it. The Forcefield was active for 7 rounds before the warlord succumbed to his wounds. It avoided 9 attacks and I had it beat down to zero tokens by the second round it was out. Although I did lose the game I came to the conclusion that it was a viable strategy for builds with a heavy investment in small to medium creatures as long as you have a spawn point to help supply the creatures.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: malgor on March 15, 2013, 02:17:01 AM
Forcefield is a devastating card, and I can see why it was debated so much in play testing.   The card is most brutal late-game, as the opponent may be out of dispels and too invested in a different strategy to pump out the creatures necessary to beat through the forcefield.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: shapeshifter on March 15, 2013, 06:32:58 AM
I too since finding it blocks unavoidable attacks am finding difficulties getting through this card.
The forcemaster can sweep attack or charm a horde very easily.

Maybe im missing something but some help outside "dispel it" would be very welcome.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Sausageman on March 15, 2013, 07:32:48 AM
I'm actually a bit concerned Forcefield is *too* good.  It's clearly her top teir enchantment, just as Divine Intervention is for the Priestess, but it just seems to have so much going for it.  It costs the same as 3 blocks but only takes one action to cast (rather than 3), it regenerates back, it stops various different types of attacks, it's MUCH more expensive to Dispel.  It makes the Forcemaster SO strong.  Combine that with Galvitar, her innate ability and varous other tools and I'm worried she's, well, close to unbeatable....
I'd be very interested to see how much-ups against her have gone.  Anyone seen her consistantly beaten?
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Shad0w on March 15, 2013, 08:32:55 AM
The print version of Forcefield is a nerfed version of the one I wanted. It is way to easy to get rid of. I had 3 versions I liked this was the weakest of them. We had another enchant that was supposed to work with Forcefield but it got cut 1 week before print. When we voted on the final set cards.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Preacher on March 15, 2013, 08:44:17 AM
Quote from: "Shad0w" post=9113
The print version of Forcefield is a nerfed version of the one I wanted. It is way to easy to get rid of. I had 3 versions I liked this was the weakest of them. We had another enchant that was supposed to work with Forcefield but it got cut 1 week before print. When we voted on the final set cards.


 :ohmy:

Really? Wow, that's interesting to read. Not quite sure what to say other than Forcefield seeming to be very strong and that amount of mana to dispel it is quite an investment (assuming you even have the card) and often you won't have that spare with a melee juggernaut coming at you like a runaway train.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Shad0w on March 15, 2013, 09:33:30 AM
Use triple strike or any multi-attack and you will chew through the Forcefield in no time. all you need to do is make 4 attacks a round. The only time Forcfield shines is against solo builds and big creature builds. It is only ok against swarms.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Sausageman on March 15, 2013, 09:53:38 AM
Internet issues ;) Please ignore
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Preacher on March 15, 2013, 09:59:43 AM
Quote from: "Shad0w" post=9116
Use triple strike or any multi-attack and you will chew through the Forcefield in no time. all you need to do is make 4 attacks a round. The only time Forcfield shines is against solo builds and big creature builds. It is only ok against swarms.


Right, so *just* those 4 attacks then?  ;) then onto her Defence shield and all that with only one card that stays in play.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm all for strong cards and pushing the envelope, hell, it's one of my favourite things in a new set - looking out the powerful cards and pouring over new combos and stuff - but this one stood out like a thumb hit with a hammer for me.

I think the action savings are where it really struck me, it does the same or better than the same amount of Blocks for less and it regenerates and you can do all that in one action (as opposed to many). Just didn't feel like there was parity there.

As I say, not saying the sky is falling or anything and very early days but holy hell I think it's a strong card, especially when it nullifies certain spellbooks on its own!
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on March 15, 2013, 10:13:07 AM
In the game I wrote about above, even though I lost I considered the strategy a success. There were a few details I didn't mention because they didn't seem pertinent at the time. I would say that my opponent and I played equally well (or poorly as the case may be). There were some mistakes on both sides nothing too egregious. Here's the kicker though, we engaged for seven rounds and I had the Forcefield beat down on round two. The forcemaster had to roll for defense 6 times and she made every one of them. That's right not a single missed defense roll. If she had missed them all I would have slaughtered her, if she only hit 50% I would have won the game. I really enjoyed the game and I like my chances in a rematch.

I would rate the Forcefield as strong but definitely not OP.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Sausageman on March 15, 2013, 10:41:44 AM
Quote from: "Shad0w" post=9116
Use triple strike or any multi-attack and you will chew through the Forcefield in no time. all you need to do is make 4 attacks a round.

That's easier said than done in many games. Maybe if the enchantment was destroyed if it was reduced to zero tokens, but you have to consistantly keep the pressure on, otherwise the forcefield just builds up again.
This is largely theoretical on my part, I'm sure you've had a lot my exposure to it than I have, but it *feels* extremely powerful to me - most powerful of the game probably (step aside Hand of Bim Shalla :))
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Shad0w on March 15, 2013, 11:14:52 AM
It was designed to make you constantly apply pressure if you give her time to build up then you have to deal with it all over again.  :P
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: malgor on March 15, 2013, 01:28:45 PM
i don't think forcefield breaks the game (dispel alone ensures it does not), but i do think Shadow is way underselling its power, especially for people who haven't played a lot.  a strategy that prevents solo builds and big creature attacks is pretty powerful no doubt.  If you don't have creatures to do a melee or a powerful enough mage to get in there and lay some double strikes down, it's always best to use dispel.  The mana cost on dispel is a lot better than even paying for low-cost attack spells (4-6 mana attack spells) to beat it down.  One exception is the Wizard's 1 mana arcane zap.  I found that was pretty useful.  Safe quickcast, have some low creatures take a wack, then use your arcane zap to eliminate the last barrier and use your action marker to lay down a big attack spell (I prefer lightning with the lightning equipment bonus).
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Shad0w on March 15, 2013, 01:43:18 PM
I am not underselling its power. Once you get the card I wanted to be in the set. You will see how I was able to get past the Forcefield every round in a solo vs solo match with no problem. I will let you know two of the three cards needed are already out as of the FM vs Warlord set. I never even bothered to get rid of it since it was a non-issue when play testing. Also once we have the last card they will be in most of my build from now on.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on March 15, 2013, 02:12:11 PM
Quote from: "Shad0w" post=9134
I am not underselling its power. Once you get the card I wanted to be in the set. You will see how I was able to get past the Forcefield every round in a solo vs solo match with no problem. I will let you know two of the three cards needed are already out as of the FM vs Warlord set. I never even bothered to get rid of it since it was a non-issue when play testing. Also once we have the last card they will be in most of my build from now on.


I know you haven't given us any details on the card, but it sounds like it could make the Forcemaster unplayable. I don't see the Forcefield as a problem, in fact I see it as the only thing keeping the Forcemaster in the game. If this card gets around the Forcefield as easily as you say and is worth puting in every deck, I don't see her being able to compete.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: malgor on March 15, 2013, 02:34:01 PM
to be clear again i dont' think it makes the forcemaster unplayable in any way.  i've won as the FM and defeated her a few times, too (only once when forcefield was active).  Even according to you there are two cards (apparently so valuable you won't name them lol) necessary to counter it.  Just saying it's a strong enough card that it will take a lot of new players some time to figure out how to deal with it (aside from a rush of small creatures).

You seem to just be casting it aside and while that may true I feel like you're a very experienced player and newer players will have a harder go against the forcefield.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Aquila on March 15, 2013, 02:40:05 PM
What cards???  :woohoo:  :P  :side:
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Shad0w on March 15, 2013, 02:49:06 PM
Quote from: "malgor" post=9138
to be clear again i dont' think it makes the forcemaster unplayable in any way.  i've won as the FM and defeated her a few times, too (only once when forcefield was active).  Even according to you there are two cards (apparently so valuable you won't name them lol) necessary to counter it.  Just saying it's a strong enough card that it will take a lot of new players some time to figure out how to deal with it (aside from a rush of small creatures).

You seem to just be casting it aside and while that may true I feel like you're a very experienced player and newer players will have a harder go against the forcefield.


I just takes play experience how learn how to work around. The version I had wanted had no upkeep was a shield and could have up to 9 charges but you payed each upkeep to recharge it. The cost was 2 mana per recharge each upkeep
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Shad0w on March 15, 2013, 02:50:51 PM
Quote from: "Tacullu64" post=9137
Quote from: "Shad0w" post=9134
I am not underselling its power. Once you get the card I wanted to be in the set. You will see how I was able to get past the Forcefield every round in a solo vs solo match with no problem. I will let you know two of the three cards needed are already out as of the FM vs Warlord set. I never even bothered to get rid of it since it was a non-issue when play testing. Also once we have the last card they will be in most of my build from now on.


I know you haven't given us any details on the card, but it sounds like it could make the Forcemaster unplayable. I don't see the Forcefield as a problem, in fact I see it as the only thing keeping the Forcemaster in the game. If this card gets around the Forcefield as easily as you say and is worth puting in every deck, I don't see her being able to compete.


It may seem like that but she was still my number 1 choice, because when the combo  is used to break down the field it gave me time to use the same combo on the other mage.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on March 15, 2013, 03:01:23 PM
Quote from: "Shad0w" post=9143
Quote from: "Tacullu64" post=9137
Quote from: "Shad0w" post=9134
I am not underselling its power. Once you get the card I wanted to be in the set. You will see how I was able to get past the Forcefield every round in a solo vs solo match with no problem. I will let you know two of the three cards needed are already out as of the FM vs Warlord set. I never even bothered to get rid of it since it was a non-issue when play testing. Also once we have the last card they will be in most of my build from now on.


I know you haven't given us any details on the card, but it sounds like it could make the Forcemaster unplayable. I don't see the Forcefield as a problem, in fact I see it as the only thing keeping the Forcemaster in the game. If this card gets around the Forcefield as easily as you say and is worth puting in every deck, I don't see her being able to compete.


It may seem like that but she was still my number 1 choice, because when the combo  is used to break down the field it gave me time to use the same combo on the other mage.


Interesting, I guess I'll just have to wait and see.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: shapeshifter on March 15, 2013, 06:02:19 PM
So when i asked for advice to handle the forcefield, im happy to find that others are having similar difficulties with it as I am. Im still not confident a swarm plan is fantastic as the forcemaster can react with sweep attacks, charms, mind controls and mass sleep. It just eats up so many mage actions and mana on summons to deal with a single enchantment.

This card is hard to play around, and shuts down entire strategies. I like the suggestion of using the wizard's arcane zap, that is good cheap investment to take out a charge, but only applies to the wizard. Im still looking for a good non-Dispel option to the forcefield. Im actually beginning to think that the best plan is placing a nulify on my opponent's forcemaster.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on March 15, 2013, 06:44:22 PM
Quote from: "shapeshifter" post=9153
So when i asked for advice to handle the forcefield, im happy to find that others are having similar difficulties with it as I am. Im still not confident a swarm plan is fantastic as the forcemaster can react with sweep attacks, charms, mind controls and mass sleep. It just eats up so many mage actions and mana on summons to deal with a single enchantment.

This card is hard to play around, and shuts down entire strategies. I like the suggestion of using the wizard's arcane zap, that is good cheap investment to take out a charge, but only applies to the wizard. Im still looking for a good non-Dispel option to the forcefield. Im actually beginning to think that the best plan is placing a nulify on my opponent's forcemaster.


The swarm is effective against the Forcefield, and yes the Forcemaster does have ways to counter a swarm. The game wouldn't be as good if she didn't. It just harder for her to counter the swarm especially if you keep pressuring her. That is the real key. I kept a pair of Goblin Slingers at range and a pair of Goblin Grunts in her zone with the Warlord. With the Barracks and two other outpost I payed just 1 mana from the Warlord for grunts and 4 for slingers. It was easy to keep the creatures coming, attack with the Warlord and cast something else or save mana for a big creature. If she cast a zone spell she may get 2 goblins for as much or more mana than they cost me.

The Forcefield is a great spell,but like everything else so far in this game there is an answer for it or 2 or 3. :P
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: piousflea on March 16, 2013, 07:13:00 PM
The Forcefield is strong but balanced IMO. It is a huge mana investment, and it cannot regain more than one Forcefield charge per round. As long as you keep the pressure up and don't let her escape to regenerate FF charges it is not super overpowered.

You can use avoidable attacks to burn FF and save unavoidable attacks for when FF is down.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: mitkosim on March 17, 2013, 06:20:38 AM
I have to agree that the FF is powerful but far from unanswerable. For one, you should never be out of Dispels before the FM has her FF out ... this is just common sense but it is similar to how you should never run out of Dissolves before the Priestess has her healing wand out or the warlock has his Lash out. As to its tendency to shut down solo builds, those are mostly Warlock and maybe Wizard. The warlock can really light the FM up with curses and then her Purge Magic actually becomes a liability because it will remove her FF as well while his helm and damage barrier keep him safe and chip away at her life. The wizard can tax her mana even more than she herself already does and between the siphon and the suppression cloak, maybe a couple of Essence Drains on her spores, she will be hard pressed to keep much of anything up ... and then the Hydra comes out and triple strikes through the FF :P Even for a swarm build, I would actually prefer not to swarm her FF exactly so I don't get Mass Slept. All you have to do is get in two attacks per round to punch though the FF and then lay the unavoidables to do some damage.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on March 17, 2013, 07:41:12 AM
Quote from: "mitkosim" post=9216
Even for a swarm build, I would actually prefer not to swarm her FF exactly so I don't get Mass Slept. All you have to do is get in two attacks per round to punch though the FF and then lay the unavoidables to do some damage.


Good post. I cut some to get to the part I wanted to comment on.

When you swarm you can make some of the attacks from range making Mass Sleep an expensive way to deal with 2 creatures. If you position your creatures carefully she might  only be able to affect one creature.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: DarthDadaD20 on March 17, 2013, 09:00:11 AM
Nullify is certainly one of the most cost effective strategies, You could also us multistrike to get past force field, (the second or third attack at least) Battle fury to eat up charges, any direct damage would get past it. A cheep spell on a wand to eat up charges,(Im thinking invisible fist) As it was said a wall of thorns. There is alot you could do....that said force field is quite amazing!
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on March 17, 2013, 09:18:55 AM
Quote from: "DarthDadaD20" post=9221
Nullify is certainly one of the most cost effective strategies, You could also us multistrike to get past force field, (the second or third attack at least) Battle fury to eat up charges, any direct damage would get past it. A cheep spell on a wand to eat up charges,(Im thinking invisible fist) As it was said a wall of thorns. There is alot you could do....that said force field is quite amazing!


Those are all viable strategies, although personally I wouldn't use Battle Fury. When I use BF I want to stick a large amount if damage in 1 round, not eat up FF tokens.

Although I think it's been mentioned previously the Wizards Arcane Zap is a cheap attack.

Attacks with push effects could remove 2 tokens if you are also able to Bash the FM into a wall with the passage blocked trait.

Edit: After thinking about it some more I don't know if the push effect would hit the FF like a double strike, or the FM like a damage barrier. Either way it's still a good tactic.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: DaveW on April 16, 2013, 11:01:13 PM
Quote from: "Tacullu64" post=7969
I might actually put a second in the spellbook now, but I'm not sure. In my initial assessment I figured there was no way it would get dispelled because of cost. It still seems unlikely, but now I'm not as sure.


I've been toying with having two in my FM spellbook... not only is there an off chance of one getting dispelled, but I wonder if sometimes (very rarely) it might be worthwhile to voluntarily replace it.

The only time I see this as a possibility, is when the FF is beat down the previous turn, and when facing two to four high-effect creatures and no little ones. Then I wonder if it wouldn't be worth not paying upkeep for the one use per turn... and then bring out another copy as soon as you can the next turn, gaining two more uses that turn.

It's just a question of whether the mana cost (discounted for not paying upkeep) and loss of an action is worth it. Right now I'm guessing that you would have to be pretty desperate in terms of life left while at the same time having an overabundance of mana available... conditions that likely won't happen at the same time.

Here's a question though: Can someone remove a spell that he or she cast earlier at any time (or is failure to pay upkeep the only way to do this)? If so, then I wonder if it isn't good to remove the first one when smaller creatures have knocked it down to zero tokens to get another fresh one out (presuming enough mana, etc.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on April 16, 2013, 11:16:09 PM
That is a good question. I would guess failure to pay the upkeep is the only way. I'm not 100% sure but that is the logical answer within the rules I think.

As for the scenario you presented for doing so, I would stack defense rolls. If you can get just one more defense toll a turn to go with the FM built in defense roll you still have 3 opportunities to avoid attacks. One guaranteed from the FF and 2 you'd have to roll for.

I would definitely include a second Force Field.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Sausageman on April 19, 2013, 07:52:52 AM
My issue with a lot of the advice given is it's temporary - the FM backs off, uses her innate push ability a bit and the FF is back up to 3 charges quick as anything.

Dispel is, clearly, the best choice, but a Nullify on her when you cast it could literally make you cry...  This means you've gotta cast something else on her first to make sure you get it through, and THEN the 12 point Dispel...  For those unfortunate mages that have a channeling of 9, thats a LOT of mana.

What you have to do is COMPLETELY alter your strategy to try desperately to remove one card of your opponents.  While they try to savage you about the head and neck...  That's an extremely powerful card.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Shad0w on April 19, 2013, 08:48:47 AM
Three upkeep's to recharge the FF is not quick. ;)
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Tacullu64 on April 19, 2013, 09:31:27 AM
Quote from: "Sausageman" post=11377
My issue with a lot of the advice given is it's temporary - the FM backs off, uses her innate push ability a bit and the FF is back up to 3 charges quick as anything.

Dispel is, clearly, the best choice, but a Nullify on her when you cast it could literally make you cry...  This means you've gotta cast something else on her first to make sure you get it through, and THEN the 12 point Dispel...  For those unfortunate mages that have a channeling of 9, thats a LOT of mana.

What you have to do is COMPLETELY alter your strategy to try desperately to remove one card of your opponents.  While they try to savage you about the head and neck...  That's an extremely powerful card.


Nullify doesn't protect the Forcefield from Dispel. Dispel targets the FF not the mage. Purge Magic does target the mage.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: baronzaltor on April 19, 2013, 02:44:22 PM
Also she has an innate pull, not an innate push
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Bishop084 on April 29, 2013, 01:29:23 PM
It is a very powerful spell, and I like to save it for late game when Dispels and what not have likely been used to get rid of my Charms and Mind Control, etc. At that point, it's usually a game ender unless my opponent has a massive creature advantage.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Shad0w on May 01, 2013, 08:11:51 AM
Great tip it is best when used mid to late game. Also another tip is to put 2 in your book but do not flip the first one early. If it gets dispelled the other player thinks they are clear then you play and flip the second one. Surprise I had 2  :P  --  :blink:  :angry:
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: zot on August 09, 2013, 03:01:20 AM
   Also, note that things such as the warlock drain life ignore the ff, as does explode which could load a burn. Those conditions that have ongoing damage effects will still work even though the field is up. I really like the fm as a mage. I have been known to run 3 of those.  ;D
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: baronzaltor on August 12, 2013, 05:07:07 PM
   Also, note that things such as the warlock drain life ignore the ff, as does explode which could load a burn. Those conditions that have ongoing damage effects will still work even though the field is up. I really like the fm as a mage. I have been known to run 3 of those.  ;D

Another good way around it is direct damage.. Ghoul Rot, Magebane, Chains of Agony, Moloch's Torment, Burns, Rots, Malacoda, Altar of Pestilence, Force Crush.  Also Damage Barriers cut right through it too (as it skips the "avoid attack" phase)... So Circle of Fire has a good chance to put some burn tokens as payback on every attack.

Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Loht on November 17, 2013, 04:31:19 AM

Nullify doesn't protect the Forcefield from Dispel. Dispel targets the FF not the mage. Purge Magic does target the mage.

I would like this see this cleared up. Nullify does protect the mage against any incantation or enchantment spell. FF is ON the mage. Dispel targets one enchantmen wile purge magic targets all enchantments on the mage.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Laddinfance on November 17, 2013, 08:45:22 AM
Dispel targets the enchantment. Nullify only stops it if it targets the creature. Nullify cannot protect enchantments. Nullify can protect against Dissolve though, because Dissolve targets the mage.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Zuberi on November 17, 2013, 10:11:08 AM
Purge Magic does NOT "target all enchantments on the mage."

It targets the Mage. It then has the effect of destroying all enchantments on the mage.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Moonglow on August 24, 2014, 04:38:52 AM
I am not underselling its power. Once you get the card I wanted to be in the set. You will see how I was able to get past the Forcefield every round in a solo vs solo match with no problem. I will let you know two of the three cards needed are already out as of the FM vs Warlord set. I never even bothered to get rid of it since it was a non-issue when play testing. Also once we have the last card they will be in most of my build from now on.

Shadow, are you able to give more detail on what the third card was yet?
Title: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Sailor Vulcan on August 24, 2014, 01:12:45 PM
I just want to point out that Forcefield specifically says that it cancels attacks BEFORE the avoid attack step, not during. Forcefield itself doesn't cancel attacks, Forcefield tokens do. Forcefield tokens are not defenses. Unavoidable attacks do not bypass Forcefield tokens.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Wildhorn on August 24, 2014, 02:29:25 PM
I just want to point out that Forcefield specifically says that it cancels attacks BEFORE the avoid attack step, not during. Forcefield itself doesn't cancel attacks, Forcefield tokens do. Forcefield tokens are not defenses. Unavoidable attacks do not bypass Forcefield tokens.

Oh wow, does it means that Double/Triplestrike/Battle Fury get canceled on the first attack?
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: ringkichard on August 24, 2014, 04:24:32 PM
Forcefield has a pretty extensive FAQ entry.

Quote from: FAQ
If this Mage is the defender of an attack, before the Avoid Attack Step, you must remove a Forcefield token. If you do, cancel that attack.
Forcefield will work even against Unavoidable attacks, including Zone attacks. Since a Zone attack makes separate attacks against each attackable object in the zone, Forcefield will only protect the Mage from a Zone attack; it will not protect any other objects in that zone.
If you roll to hit with a Daze, and “miss”, that attack has missed and a Forcefield token will not be removed.
If the attack action makes multiple attacks against this Forcemaster, Forcefield will trigger (and potentially remove a token) for each attack.
If the attack is canceled with Forcefield, skip the remaining Steps of that attack;
• Skip the Avoid Attack Step (a Block enchantment will not be forced to be revealed)
• Skip the Roll Dice Step, and Assign Damage and Effects Steps. No damage or effects will occur.
• Skip the Damage Barrier and Counterstrike Steps. However a Guard marker is still removed.
Note: The forcefield only cancels one attack, not the entire attack action. If the attack action makes multiple attacks, proceed with those additional attacks as normal. Unless the Forcefield cancels one of those attacks, they could trigger the Steps above as normal. If Forcefield has no more tokens on it, it remains in play attached to the Mage, it just won’t be able to cancel any more attacks (until it gets another Forcefield token next Upkeep Phase).

Sweeping and Whirling Strike both cause multiple separate attacks within the same attack action, so canceling the first attack doesn't cancel the rest.

Double/Triple Strike and Battle Fury are... more complicated. In those cases, the second attack occurs within the first attack. The FAQ says that a token will be removed for each attack, so that's the black-letter rule, but I couldn't tell you why. Canceling the first attack should cancel all its steps, including step 5 (Doublestrike) and step 8 (Battle Fury). But the FAQ says to make those attacks anyway.

 \D:/
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Ganpot on August 24, 2014, 10:04:01 PM
Shadow, are you able to give more detail on what the third card was yet?
I'm quite curious about that card as well (although I doubt Shadow will be allowed to spoil the card early).  I just went through all the cards added in Warlord vs Forcemaster to try to pinpoint the other 2 cards he was talking about.  I think one of them is Dancing Scimitar: it gives a free, relatively small attack every turn (perfect for depleting a forcefield).  It also isn't mage or school specific, and doesn't even take up an equipment slot. 

I still don't know what the second card could be.  At first I thought it might be Battle Fury, but that wouldn't really speed things up since you'd have to give up an action to play it. 


Double/Triple Strike and Battle Fury are... more complicated. In those cases, the second attack occurs within the first attack. The FAQ says that a token will be removed for each attack, so that's the black-letter rule, but I couldn't tell you why. Canceling the first attack should cancel all its steps, including step 5 (Doublestrike) and step 8 (Battle Fury). But the FAQ says to make those attacks anyway.
If I had to guess, that ruling is probably to keep the rules logically consistent without having to revise the attack sequence.  It makes sense (especially to newer players) that having a hydra hit a forcefield three times would deplete it, so the rules bend to accommodate it.  That is probably a good thing; I have seen a lot of reviewers compliment Mage Wars on its common-sense friendly set of rules.   
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: ringkichard on August 24, 2014, 10:09:59 PM
Oh, I definitely agree that the FAQ describes the desirable outcome. In the last couple of days it's become clear to me that  Doublestrike and Battle Fury need a new coat of rules paint, is all.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Ganpot on August 24, 2014, 10:24:03 PM
In the last couple of days it's become clear to me that  Doublestrike and Battle Fury need a new coat of rules paint, is all.

Yeah, there are several minor rules in the game that I wish were re-written/updated.  Overall though, I am still quite impressed by how straight-forward the rules turned out. 
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Shad0w on August 31, 2014, 06:27:25 PM
I am not underselling its power. Once you get the card I wanted to be in the set. You will see how I was able to get past the Forcefield every round in a solo vs solo match with no problem. I will let you know two of the three cards needed are already out as of the FM vs Warlord set. I never even bothered to get rid of it since it was a non-issue when play testing. Also once we have the last card they will be in most of my build from now on.

Shadow, are you able to give more detail on what the third card was yet?

It is in the test files. Sorry that is all I can say.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Shad0w on August 31, 2014, 06:30:07 PM
In the last couple of days it's become clear to me that  Doublestrike and Battle Fury need a new coat of rules paint, is all.

Yeah, there are several minor rules in the game that I wish were re-written/updated.  Overall though, I am still quite impressed by how straight-forward the rules turned out.

We are currently reviewing a few things.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: ringkichard on August 31, 2014, 07:02:18 PM
Thinking about it now (on my cellphone) the easiest thing to do to resolve this is to say that a canceled attack immediately enters step 8, so that canceling an attack doesn't let you skip the end step. Not *entirely* sure what other effects that would have, but it would clean this interaction up.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Shad0w on August 31, 2014, 07:18:35 PM
Thinking about it now (on my cellphone) the easiest thing to do to resolve this is to say that a canceled attack immediately enters step 8, so that canceling an attack doesn't let you skip the end step. Not *entirely* sure what other effects that would have, but it would clean this interaction up.

That is a topic for another thread
Title: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Sailor Vulcan on September 01, 2014, 09:53:06 AM
[quote="DarthDadaD20" post=9221]Nullify is certainly one of the most cost effective strategies, You could also us multistrike to get past force field, (the second or third attack at least) Battle fury to eat up charges, any direct damage would get past it. A cheep spell on a wand to eat up charges,(Im thinking invisible fist) As it was said a wall of thorns. There is alot you could do....that said force field is quite amazing!

Those are all viable strategies, although personally I wouldn't use Battle Fury. When I use BF I want to stick a large amount if damage in 1 round, not eat up FF tokens.

Although I think it's been mentioned previously the Wizards Arcane Zap is a cheap attack.

Attacks with push effects could remove 2 tokens if you are also able to Bash the FM into a wall with the passage blocked trait.

Edit: After thinking about it some more I don't know if the push effect would hit the FF like a double strike, or the FM like a damage barrier. Either way it's still a good tactic.


Bashed

When a creature is Pushed into a wall with the Passage Blocked trait it is Bashed. It receives an Unavoidable attack of 3 attack dice of damage. The walls around the outside of the arena have the Passage Blocked trait.



Forcefield tokens absorb unavoidable attacks. So bashing a forcemaster while she's enchanted with her Forcefield will remove a Forcefield token.
Title: Re: The Forcemaster's Forcefield
Post by: Battlehamster on September 01, 2014, 01:11:06 PM
As a forcemaster who utilizes forcefield, it really is not that difficult to get rid of. Saving a turn of mana to dispel it is usually the preferred method and there is not a dang thing I can do about it (save jinx you I suppose and hope to catch your dispel). Or if you have several creatures out you can deplete the forcefield through repeated attacks with your small creatures then follow up with your bigs/unavoidable attacks to get through defenses. There are so many unavoidable attacks these days that my defenses are working less and less. Honestly forcefield works fine as is, and really is the only thing that keeps the forcemaster alive any decent amount of time.