December 10, 2018, 08:15:41 AM

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Spells / Re: A little love for the Swamp
« Last post by wtcannonjr on December 02, 2018, 08:44:57 AM »
I have an Arena Druid spellbook that uses Swamp and Elephant Grass along with a Shoalsdeep Crocodile. The Academy Druid has some additional spells that should combo nicely with this terrain, but I have not updated my spellbooks yet.

The Swamp spell also combines with the Whirlpool for added damage and restricting movement. The Druid is the only mage fully trained in the Swamp spell so I primarily use it with that mage. However, it also fits with Siren strategies and has general application for other mages as you point out above.
Spells / A little love for the Swamp
« Last post by DaveW on December 02, 2018, 07:27:30 AM »
Has anyone used Swamp much? I happened to have it in a book that I played Friday night... Saturday morning... depending on what time it happened.

My opponent cast a little invisible Force dude with Elusive through a Minds Eye in my zone. I panicked thinking that I had no counter. You can't target the stupid thing without a zone attack or the like... and I had a bunch of Zombies in the zone... I'd have to put everyone in the zone on guard just to be able to kill it (or accept that it was going to get attacks in with impunity until it dissipated).

Then I read the details on the Swamp spell during Spell Prep. Get's rid of Elusive... so now he has to go against guards... cool. Then I also saw that it makes all Creatures slow... so other creatures entering the zone can't attack on the same turn... even better. Then I realized that I was playing a FM with his annoying Force Pull ability and that the Swamp keeps my Creatures from being pulled out of the zone... I'm sold. Send me a dozen.

Maybe it was just a niche application that night... but I'm wondering whether anyone else may have any Swamp success stories. If so, with which Mage? I was playing a Necro that time.

Events / Re: Winter Mage War 2
« Last post by DaveW on December 02, 2018, 12:05:47 AM »
I officially am the first registered for Winter Mage War 2. See you all there!
Rules Discussion / Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Last post by wtcannonjr on November 30, 2018, 06:34:19 PM »
If the community is voting for consensus, then my vote is to always pull toward the Forcemaster using her ability.

Rationale: it creates the smallest amount of change to the way the Forcemaster ability worked prior to release of Mind's Eye. The ability still pulls a creature toward the swirling Galvitar Force Blade intent on slicing it to pieces but now the ability has an extended range and can be used over top of walls.
Rules Discussion / Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Last post by Zuberi on November 30, 2018, 05:07:33 PM »
I don't think the fact that it "pulls" is less relevant. But it is intrinsically tied to the question of "pulling towards what?". You can't say whether it's a pull or a push without a frame of reference. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your argument seems to mostly be a thematic one at this point. But there are ways to imagine this to make thematic sense. Instead of some kind of lasso of force coming from the Mind's Eye and pulling the creature in that direction, think of it as a tether. The mind eye uses force energy to tether the Mage and the target creature together, and pull them closer to each other. Theme isn't my strong suit, but there are ways to explain it.

Meanwhile, I find it funny that we use a lot of the same points of contention but reach different conclusions. "The reason it costs 1 mana is because it is limited in direction..." is, to me, a good reason why the direction shouldn't be changed. "Why does the 'yoink' FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE DIRECTION when a Mind's Eye casts it?" It shouldn't. Which is why it should continue to pull the creature towards the Forcemaster. Doing otherwise would be a fundamental change in how the spell functions. That's the direction it was always designed to operate with. Giving it extra functionality and versatility without increasing it's cost seems like a poor idea to me.

Also, remember that the Mind's Eye isn't the caster. The Forcemaster is still the one casting it. So that might help your thematic disconnect. Maybe picture it as a hand of force that is magnetically/magically attracted to her that she just throws behind the target. She can use the Mind's Eye to help her plop it behind a target, but it is still drawn towards her, the caster. I think that is a better picture than my tether idea.
Rules Discussion / Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Last post by farkas1 on November 30, 2018, 05:03:18 PM »
Yea agree minds should pull towards minds eye.  I donít think it breaks the game having it work that way and makes minds eye more deadly.  I also agree thematically it makes since that way.
Rules Discussion / Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Last post by Kelanen on November 30, 2018, 02:02:32 PM »
I'm of the opinion that it should pull towards the minds Eye, but it needs a ruling one way or other written in stone...
Rules Discussion / Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Last post by Puddnhead on November 30, 2018, 12:35:22 PM »
Can we take a minute to understand that Force Pull is Force PULL.  Why is it less important that it actually PULLS rather than is relevant to the position of the Forcemaster?!

The only reason Force Pull is worded the way that it is is because they wanted to use the already extant Game Terminology of "push" instead of having to have a separate entry for "pull". Force Pull as a spell is intended to be a quick "yoink". The reason it costs 1 mana is because it is limited in direction and cannot push through passage attacks.

Why does the "yoink" FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE DIRECTION when a Mind's Eye casts it? This is preposterous. Mind's Eye CHANGED the RULES. I contend that PULL is more important to the intrinsic spell-ness of Force Pull than "her" is.

*rant snipped out* My views have been stated and the rules lawyers have spoken -- exit Puddnhead.
General Discussion / Re: trying something else...
« Last post by exid on November 30, 2018, 09:01:03 AM »
I received Codex and Spirit Island today!
Well... I'm off for a moment... sure back for a new arena expansion... or one day, who knows...

Thank you AW and everybody on the forum for these great MW-years!
Rules Discussion / Re: force pull through Mind's eye
« Last post by Zuberi on November 30, 2018, 06:54:18 AM »
I feel obligated to first say that despite my reputation and some people's opinion to the contrary, I am not the arbiter of rules and am not an official response. This is merely my personal opinion.

I think the card text is not clear. The use of the pronoun and what it is referencing when the source of the spell is suddenly changed can be argued, and trying to argue it is not going to get us anywhere. I prefer Puddnhead's method in this case, looking at the intent.

Option A: Force Pull always pushes towards the Forcemaster. Nearly every situation under this option will end up working exactly how Force Pull has always worked, and was clearly intended to work. The only exceptions are if you target the Mage herself or any other creature in the same zone as her. In which case the two possible interpretations are that nothing happens, or that she may push the creature in any direction. I'm of the belief that nothing would happen. The reason for this is clearer when talking about other creatures in the zone with her, as pushing them out of the zone obviously doesn't follow the rules of the spell. They'd be moving further away, not nearer. The same is true when used on the Mage though. You are moving her away from her current location, not towards it. So basically, Option A uses the Mind's Eye to increase range but does not affect functionality.

Option B: Force Pull pushes towards the source, i.e. the Mind's Eye. This would be consistent with the rules for Pushes in general. Their direction is generally in reference to the source, not the caster. However, this grants Force Pull all sorts of new functionality, in addition to increased range. Obviously it now lets you pull things AWAY from the Forcemaster, which is the exact opposite of what it was originally supposed to do, and makes it much easier for the Mage to disengage and keep things a safe distance away. It also allows you to pull yourself, giving you increased mobility. I don't think there's any way to argue that this isn't as intended for Force Pull. But maybe it's the intent for Mind's Eye? Puddnhead references Reverse Magic and Reverse Attack, but that seems like a poor comparison to me. The effect of those spells isn't really changed. They've always targeted the source, and have had rulings on that going back to the core set and Chain Lightning. And casting them out of Mind's Eye doesn't change anything about them. The only thing happening there is the fact that Mind's Eye can trigger them.

Jet Stream is a better example. But here I think it's important to realize that this, and any other example you can come up with, aren't Mage Abilities. Any spell card you can point to as an example has the property of being a spell card, and thus designed with the idea in mind that it may be cast by a Familiar instead of by your Mage (Note, I recognize that Magecast spells exist, but I couldn't find any relevant to the discussion). That's not the case with Force Pull. It's initial design and intention was always that it would be pushing things towards the Mage.

That's why I think Option A is the right interpretation. It pushes them towards the Forcemaster, and if you target the Forcemaster herself or any other creature in her zone, it doesn't do anything. Not because it has the best argument grammatically with regards to the pronoun, but because it preserves game play and avoids unintentional uses of an ability.
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