November 25, 2017, 05:27:41 AM

Author Topic: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book  (Read 59131 times)

Paleblue

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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2013, 09:44:17 PM »
If we are strictly going with MUST haves then Teleport (or push), Dispel and Dissolve are essential. If you don't have these in your book and get caught out you will lose the game instantly. Cloak / Armor etc are 2nd tier in my eyes.

nitrodavid

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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2013, 09:48:36 PM »
I said +1 armour was good against all mages apart from force master. because if we are going to imagine the hypothetical build where she would not attack you with her blade then there are much larger variables to consider.

would you put on an ele cloak against force master if you were the warlord?

and I also said that most mages (all except earth/water wizard) have cheaper ways of getting more armour in both cost and mana


the topic of this forum is "a base set of cards ALL mages should use"
 ele cloak should not be used by ALL mages (ie warlord) so it should not be on list

and yes there are spells you should always have like dispel (even warlord).

sure you can divide this into lists of what each mage must have but that is a different topic
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Tacullu64

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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2013, 09:57:52 PM »
If we are strictly going with MUST haves then Teleport (or push), Dispel and Dissolve are essential. If you don't have these in your book and get caught out you will lose the game instantly. Cloak / Armor etc are 2nd tier in my eyes.

I put teleport, dispell, and dissolve in all my books. I also put an elemental cloak and all my books. It's just too cheap not to when you consider the potential benefits.

If you plan on keeping your mage out of harms way I could see how one might consider armor and cloaks second tier. I figured no matter how hard I try sooner or later I will have to mix it up with my mage (truth to tell I plan on my mage being in the thick of it). So I put a greater value on armor and elemental resistances. But then I prefer a defensive/counter punching style of play.

Tacullu64

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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2013, 10:03:00 PM »
I said +1 armour was good against all mages apart from force master. because if we are going to imagine the hypothetical build where she would not attack you with her blade then there are much larger variables to consider.

would you put on an ele cloak against force master if you were the warlord?

and I also said that most mages (all except earth/water wizard) have cheaper ways of getting more armour in both cost and mana


the topic of this forum is "a base set of cards ALL mages should use"
 ele cloak should not be used by ALL mages (ie warlord) so it should not be on list

and yes there are spells you should always have like dispel (even warlord).

sure you can divide this into lists of what each mage must have but that is a different topic

I don't build my spell books to fight a particular mage. So yes I would put an elemental cloak in my warlords spell book, Knowing full well I might never use it against a forcemaster but I will be glad I have it against the warlock.

nitrodavid

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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2013, 10:37:58 PM »
why have ele cloak when you have fire armour for 1 less cost. sure you could argue "ele protects against warlock or lightning wizard" but if you want versatility the +2 armour compared to +1 will protect you more when the majority of attacks (from all sources) you will get will be non elemental.

I'll give you the maths.
+1 extra armour gives you on average 0.5 damage reduction
-2 ele resistance gives you 2 damage reduction.

this means the else resistance is 4 times better. but ONLY if every attack is the element resistance. a lightning wizard will have a hard time casting lightning attacks every turn and you must include attacks from the creatures.
 if you get hit by 1 lightning + 3 non male attacks (eg lightning bolt + 3 creature attacks) both items are equal. (note that there are many more creatures with fire attacks than lightning so this goes in fire armours favor)

this is the best case scenario for the cloak if you are not against the lightning wizard the fire armour is far Superior.
(I think you may have read my post about armour efficiency)

because of the maths I could never instantly recommend the ele cloak in every warlord book

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Tacullu64

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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2013, 10:44:27 PM »
In the scenario you described I would want both the armor and the cloak. Maybe that's just me and my defensive mindset.

Don't under estimate the -2 reduction to the D12  effect rolls. I hate being set on fire or stunned/dazed.

nitrodavid

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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2013, 11:11:09 PM »
my excel spreadsheet puts that into account but I'm on phone so can't post it.

I honestly think you are being to defensive and not very efficient about it. don't get me wrong I have else cloak in all other builds including my warlord solo build. but I would not instantly include it in every warlord book I make. i would are wasting 3 points when I could get the same or better effect for 2 points. or  for the same points and less mana (eg chest and boots)
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Texan85

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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2013, 11:56:52 PM »
adding 1 armour is countered by 1 Peirce. it only gets value when you add it to another armour item, so there will be times when it wont be of value. by definition it isn't valuable 100% of the time so it should not be an must have card.
for most mages you can get 2 armour for cheaper (with 1 ele resist) and if there are some mages who will attack you without an ele resist provided by the cloak you don't have a good card in that case.

not saying its not a very good card most of time, but there are match ups where you don't use it. so you should not have it in a must have skeleton deck build.

You are talking like every attack has piercing. Most attacks don't have piercing so the +1 armor will be useful more times than not, unless you want to posit that sometimes your opponent will roll all criticals so +1 armor wouldn't be useful then either. That argument would apply to all armor though.

There are no cards that are used in every game. However, that doesn't invalidate this list. Therefore the questions are how likely you are to use it, how much benefit do you gain from its use, and how much does it cost you to include it in your spellbook?

Agreed, so what is the alternative cloak? Even if you don't use a card doesn't meZn it was not needed in highly likely scenarios. And I would also posit it is prudent to have one of each armor piece so as to respond to situations especially pieces with armor because ther is one universal constant in this game (right now at least) to win you have to damage the other Mage, and armor reduces damage taken.
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nitrodavid

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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2013, 12:16:42 AM »
planning tour book to use every item slot isn't wise even with battleforge. I understand this Is counter to most games especially computer games that want you to fill every available slot.

I rarely find I am able to cast more then 3 equipment and if I plan on casting more then 5 the battle forge is a must. I must assume your meta allows for slower build up time. for example in my meta the most items I have been able to cast in a comp game was on a priestest build and I only got out
staff of asyra
ring of dawn breaker
ele cloak
regrowth belt

hence I dont think it is necessary to have an item for each slot. if you read most book building topics you will hear similar suggestions.

for a practical example your warlord should go fire armour + leather boots. this gives him + 3 armour -2 flame for only 8 mana and is far better then 1 ele cloak which gives +1 armour -2 tri ele resist. also if you know your 100% going to vs the air wizard get the lightning armour, don't just include cloak for the chance of lightning wizard
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Texan85

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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2013, 12:34:11 AM »
planning tour book to use every item slot isn't wise even with battleforge. I understand this Is counter to most games especially computer games that want you to fill every available slot.

I rarely find I am able to cast more then 3 equipment and if I plan on casting more then 5 the battle forge is a must. I must assume your meta allows for slower build up time. for example in my meta the most items I have been able to cast in a comp game was on a priestest build and I only got out
staff of asyra
ring of dawn breaker
ele cloak
regrowth belt

hence I dont think it is necessary to have an item for each slot. if you read most book building topics you will hear similar suggestions.

for a practical example your warlord should go fire armour + leather boots. this gives him + 3 armour -2 flame for only 8 mana and is far better then 1 ele cloak which gives +1 armour -2 tri ele resist. also if you know your 100% going to vs the air wizard get the lightning armour, don't just include cloak for the chance of lightning wizard

Funny I didn't say you have to use it, but I did say its best to have it. Especially in a tournament where you likely won't know the other Mage. And oops it's a wizard that is fire or air.

Life is like a box of chocolates, you won't know what you will get.

And furthermore I play a fast attack warlock, so I end up using barely 25% of my book.  So how does that comport with only Having every slot as a slow play. The point is to be prepared, who the hell uses every spell?
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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2013, 12:40:07 AM »
I build my spellbooks without knowing who my opponent is going to be, so I need plans to cover a variety of enemies. Elemental Cloak is not as efficient as having the relevant armor, but it applies to more types of attacks, and it stacks with armor. You shouldn't necessarily play it every game, but it's nice to have as an option. It's not absolutely essential, but I still like to include it as an option.
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nitrodavid

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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2013, 12:49:01 AM »
i cant count how many times i have said something similar to "yes it is a great card but not essential".

and this thread is about essential cards for all mages. players can refer to the topic "the good, the bad, the neglected" for a list of good spells.
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Texan85

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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2013, 01:15:42 AM »
i cant count how many times i have said something similar to "yes it is a great card but not essential".

and this thread is about essential cards for all mages. players can refer to the topic "the good, the bad, the neglected" for a list of good spells.

Didn't say it wasn't essential, it is as there is 1) better hands and boots than leather armor, so where else are you getting armor other than those 3 slots, a chest isn't an uncommon item to have dissolved or exploded, and 4 armor is the magical number before you see noticeable diminishing marginal utility (so it isn't a waste), and 2) frost is coming so not only is fire and lighting going to be a counter it will be a fully effective. And 3) how else are you going to try to avoid that kind of damage once your chest gets burned down.

And finally essential doesn't mean always use, it is essential because your going to take damage, and it's not unheard of to take fire or lighting damage; then soon to be frost damage which will be the flavor of the month.

And the counter argument that because it doesn't meat your subjective definition of essential doesn't automatically make it non-essential. How about someone make an actual counter argument?

Because even it if gets dissolved that means your opponent found it s big enough threat to get rid of it. Otherwise you at least get one armor and two less dice on the finisher spells that people like. Not to mention aren't most the common zone attack spells fire, lighting, or light. That's 2 of three and a priestess will likely be the only one to run light spells.
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nitrodavid

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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2013, 04:39:59 AM »
with armour know that every point if armour will decrease your damage taken by .5 until you have the same armour as the attack dice your receiving. and on average you will reduce there attack by 1/2 damage (if you have more armour then 2x there attack die).
what this means is if you are against a swarm of 4 dice creatures don't get more then 4 armour, if against 6 don't get more then 6 etc.

if you want best value you guess/calculate the average dice of all the attacks you will take (ie try to deflect the strong ones) then get armour equal to that number.

 note: that 2 armour is equal to 1 aegis and aegis isn't reduced by piercing
is that the quote where you got the 4 is the magic Armour number? what this post means is you dont want to get any more defence then half the average dice you will receave. you dont have to have that armour but you should not have more then it.

ok i am at my computer now so i can type easier

the issue i see is i a lack of understanding of each other point. to clear it up i will state my point clearly
"the elemental cloak should not be added into every spell book made"

to justify this point i will refer back to the warlord

QTYMaxCard TypeCard NameSpell
 lvl
SchoolCasting CostSpell Book CostTotal Book Cost
1
2
Bearskin Armor
1
Nature
6
2
2
1
2
Dragonscale Hauberk
1
Fire
6
2
2
1
3
Elemental Cloak
1
Arcane
6
3
3
1
2
Leather Boots
1
War
2
1
1
1
2
Leather Gloves
1
War
2
1
1
1
3
Storm Drake Hide
1
Air
6
2
2
1
2
Wind Wyvern Hide
1
Air
6
2
2

so to compare similar cost items

elemental cloak vs a chest armour + boots or gloves

i have already mentioned in a previous post the efficiency of the 1 extra Armour of of the chest vs the universal elemental resistance. to continue that point you must see what elements you are likely to take damage from.
there are only a 3 sources where you can take lightning damage from they are
  • 1 creature (Lightning angle)
  • 5 lightning attack spells
  • 1 damage barrier
while there are many more sources of fire damage
  • 3 creatures
  • 1 wall
  • 1 trap
  • 1 damage barrier
  • 1 wepon
  • 4 attack spells

there is currently no frost damage in the game so that is irrelevant.

so for and effecent spread of damage resistance you are best to equip your self with the flame resistant chest armour and a pair of boots or gloves. these cost you 4 mana less and provide you more damage protection due to the +2 Armour by comparison.

THEN if you feel the need to add extra items to boost your defense by all means throw in a ele cloak and one of every equipment items you need but as you will only have the mana generally to equip between 3-5 items you should prioritize your book options.

forgive me if i don't comment any more about this unless any new information gets said that i haven't already covered in my previous posts
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baronzaltor

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Re: A "Base" set of cards ALL Mages should have in there book
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2013, 04:48:29 AM »
It also depends on how much your build relies on healing.. I dont run much armor in my Forcemaster or Warlock beatdowns because of the volume of health I recover from Vampirism and the occasional Drain Life (as Warlock)

If you run a Regeneration Belt, Vampirism, and a few heals, you can get away without worrying so much about how much armor you wear.  Whereas if you are not carrying many ways to restore health youll need it more.

In those cases protection cards like armor and Elemental Cloak become less "mandatory" in the sense of essential cards.

I tend to not think in terms of must have cards, but simply must answer scenarios.  It doesnt matter what card you use to answer that scenario, so long as you have an answer.    Now, often that answer will be the same (such as with Dissolve being the most common answer to "What if I need to control Equipment?")    So in that regard I dont have too many things I consider must haves outside of the basic array of go to common spells like Teleport, Push, Dispel, etc.