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Author Topic: Nullify and shift enchantment.  (Read 2474 times)

jacksmack

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Nullify and shift enchantment.
« on: August 20, 2013, 06:51:35 PM »
Do nullify counter shift enchantment?

Lets pretend i play ghoul Rot on myself face Down. After i use my QC to shift enchantment to enemy mage.
Enemy mage has facedown Nullify.... will this counter "shift enchantment"?

jacksmack

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Re: Nullify and shift enchantment.
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2013, 06:55:13 PM »
And i can add steal enchantment to this.

The situation where you want to steal a negative enchantment on your mage or creature and move it to an enemy mage or creature that has a facedown nullify.

DeckBuilder

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Re: Nullify and shift enchantment.
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2013, 07:35:40 PM »
Good question!
This came up in the game when I first abused Enchantment Transfusion's free actions.

The decision we came up was as follows.

Shift Enchantment and Steal Enchantment are incantations that specifically say New Target (which must be in mage's LOS). They are hence nullified and not shifted (and stolen).

Enchantment Transfusion does not say New Target and does not need LOS but does say "legal target creature". Because its text states "target", it is an Enchantment that targets so also nullified, no enchantments shifted. Admittedly, the use of target is a Magic interpretation.

I am no expert so it would be good to have an official ruling. Shad0w?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 09:16:03 PM by DeckBuilder »
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DeckBuilder

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Re: Nullify and shift enchantment.
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2013, 08:18:31 PM »
Sorry to hijack this thread but Enchantment Transfusion not needing LOS reminds me of a memorable game anecdote I have to share...

Playing Earth Wizard in a teaching game, I had 4 Stone Golems with Pestilence Idol in my start corner trapped within 2 of my own Walls of Steel! I was in NC with Enchantment Transfusion, Force Hold and Nullify all hidden on me, enemy Priestess in his start corner with c.40 life (from Sunfire Amulet, Brogan had destroyed Deathlock and other conjurations before dying to Lightning Bolts from the toolbox Wizard's Tower). Going last, I moved to FC and cast Teleport Trap on NC then QC Teleport on his mage onto my trap which then teleported him to my corner Wall of Steel cell with 4 Golems (Teleport Trap needs no LOS). I had initiative next turn. He Early QC Eagleclaw Boots (he was 3 away from me). I moved back to NC, cast Jinx on myself then transfused all 3 other enchantments on me to his mage (Transfusion needs no LOS). Unable to escape (Force Hold now revealed), he cast his other spell Blinding Flash that did not Jinx, 3 Golems Dazed, 1 Golem Stunned (+2 vs. Nonliving). But over 2 turns of attacks from my Golems was just enough to kill him (next turn, he cast Dispel twice delayed by Jinx to break the Force Hold but the turn after, my first action Golem attack killed him just before he climbed out).

Yes, I know this was over-elaborate (it was a demo to a beginner who set up a strong fort of Archers + Guardian Angels + ToL that almost killed me, saved by Voltaric Shield and Force Orb). A Spike Pit and (already set-up) Enchantment Transfusion on Nullify plus Jinx does the same thing more efficiently. But I wanted to demo some of the potential trickery in the game as I knew he likes difficult to pull-off combos.

I half suspect that someone will now say that we played by the wrong rules!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 11:39:01 PM by DeckBuilder »
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sdougla2

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Re: Nullify and shift enchantment.
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2013, 08:37:24 PM »
Nullify counters Shift Enchantment. That's actually an efficient way to remove Nullify, since you can Shift Enchantment for 1 mana, whereas Decoy and Seeking Dispel normally cost 2.

Enchantment Transfusion is somewhat less clear, but my interpretation is that Nullify would not trigger, because there is no Counter Spell Step to revealing an enchantment, and Nullify triggers during the Counter Spell Step.
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ringkichard

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Re: Nullify and shift enchantment.
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2013, 09:31:02 PM »
Piousflea asked about the Enchantment Transfusion into Nullify interaction, if I remember right. The ruling was as written above: there is no Step Two for the Nullify to trigger in, so Nullify does not trigger.

I don't believe we ever got a ruling on LOS with Enchantment Transfusion. I'm away from home right now, but doesn't it use the word "Target" to describe the creature receiving the enchantments? Targeting per the rules requires LoS, though it's not clear exactly from where you draw the line: if the donor creature has flying, can Enchantment Transfusion see past walls?
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DeckBuilder

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Re: Nullify and shift enchantment.
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2013, 10:18:48 PM »
Ok, seems we made the wrong call with Enchantment Transfusion being Nullified (hard to argue your new trick bypasses Nullify). My bad. My local meta are all ex-Magic players so "target" was a keyword for us. Well, this makes Transfusion even better!

On the question of LOS for Enchantment Transfusion, wording is "from this creature to one legal target creature up to 2 zones away from this creature." The rules state "to cast a spell or make a ranged attack against a target, you must have a clear line of sight". I read that to mean exactly what it says, casting spells and making attacks. Enchantment Transfusion is neither (Shift Enchantment explicitly says "both the enchantment and the new target must be within range and LOS"). I hence assumed Enchantment Transfusion could move through a solid wall (like Teleport Trap, Divine Intervention and a teleport-moving Blue Gremlin).

Just like my initial misunderstanding when I thought Conjurations could not be Guarded against Flyers (strictly as per the wording in the rules), I am probably being too legalistic here. The American approach seems to be "what makes sense" while we Europeans (with our mechanistic but thematically-lacking games) tend to treat rules more precisely. It's "Read As Intended" (RAI) vs. "Read As Written" (RAW). I certainly like the American way better but it would be good to have a Living FAQ that compiles all these grey areas as and when they are resolved. It seems a shame AW don't leverage their fanatical base to freely help them.

I shall keep a look out to see what Shad0w's ruling on this will be...
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 10:34:54 PM by DeckBuilder »
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