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Author Topic: Druid vs Necro Spoilers  (Read 501811 times)

DeckBuilder

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #495 on: October 28, 2013, 03:53:37 PM »
It's an auto include for the Druid only. Unless there are 3 rings for her. Auto include does not promote creative book building. It's just a spell point tax. All it says to me is "Druid only needs to spend 1 spell point for conditions". Though her own conditions can't be healed.

In Magic, Onslaught and Lorwyn blocks were very flavoursome but were tribal. When drafting, all you had to do was pick one tribe and pick those cards and hey presto you have built a good "deck by numbers" as you later discover the internal synergies within that tribe. This is what auto include cards are. They just reduce the spell points left for you to create your own unique invention, diminish choice.

Orchid is good design. Along with Explode, it gives alternatives to Dissolve. Choice is good. It is skillful as you make trade-offs and spot synergies that aren't in the same school. I appreciate Mage Wars is still young but it needs more choice for basic functions. A localised enchantment upkeep item is a soft control alternative to hard control Dispel. But all solutions are arcane, just upgrades on basic Dispel.

The box says "customisable" but so many cards are auto includes. It's like tweaking a pre-built deck. That's why I'm no fan of this ring.
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #496 on: October 28, 2013, 05:04:10 PM »
Its a solid good ring. Cheap enough both mana wise and spellbook wise. Since it's very situational (how many condition markers do you normally get against a beastmaster, warlord etc) it imo had to be 1 sb point to justify putting it in there. It's a strong counter to Necromancer who will be trying to put as many on their opposing mage as possible, but it's not an exclusive counter since other mages can stack markers depending on play style. Instead of a good ring this would have been a great ring if the removal/heal was a free action. As it stands, the Druid will have to pick her removal's very carefully. Wasting Mage actions to remove markers that non mage creatures are inflicting can really turn the tide. Larvae is the only one I can think of atm to be the one for sure removal choice. Rot, weaken and cripple are other considerations for removal. The other's will either remove themselves over time or are just not worth the action. Anyway, like i said, good ring.

This seems to me to be a real nice item to carry in your book to help when the Gorgon Archer(s) come out and start punishing your Big Plant with Weak markers....
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Kharhaz

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #497 on: October 28, 2013, 07:37:58 PM »

Ok, but even in your scenario (assuming a Harmonized Samara Tree) you'd still need to wait 4 turns in order to get the full 3 mana (4 mana off the price of whatever you cast -1 for the mana you spent when Samara Tree casted the pod in the first place). Even then that's only 1 more mana saved than if you had casted it from the Vine Tree and you don't need to wait 4 turns for it then. Now I get that there's probably something I'm missing here, but what is it? Perhaps I'm underestimating the Seedling Pods.

Yes in a one round comparison vine tree will generally be > Samara.

Extrapolate that into a game wide effect and it can look something like this.

Druid cast a Samara tree.

Next turn Samara tree casts a seed pod A.
Next turn Samara casts pod B. A is at 1.
Next turn Samara casts pod C. Pod A is at 2, pod B is at 1 mana.
Next turn Pod A becomes anything you want it to be, Samara tree remakes pod A, Pod B is at 2, Pod C is at 1.

This cycle never ends. The Samara tree lets you spend 2 mana to get 3 in a few rounds, and that 3 mana is 100% versatile.

Also one of the biggest things to note here is that all of those pods, and subsequent actions, are a byproduct of the tree. The druid spent ZERO actions to make the pods. The only action was placing the tree. Free mana and free actions. I know Vine tree is more appealing but Samara has always been my favorite tree in this set. The sleeper hit IMO.

 
So what do you do? Rush in to beat down the samara tree? That is a lot of mana and investment for a turn 1 decision. Kill the pods? Well they have cantrip so have fun. I can spend 2 mana to make you waste an action or two killing pods that come back next turn. An Etherian Life tree, which a pod can become, makes them all 7 health to boot.

Pods not popping fast enough? Use a shift enchantment wand :P

Is she impossible to beat? Absolutely not. She is a lot of fun to play and very satisfying to beat. :P

However the Samara tree and/or pods are not auto include in her book, it is an optional route to go. You can focus on vines and all that as well; purely based on your play / book style



HomelessJoe

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #498 on: October 28, 2013, 08:07:26 PM »
It really seems like she will be taking the coveted spot of most defensive Mage. Seems like a strong contender for best mage to turtle with as well. She certainly has a bunch of tricks up her sleeve. Being able to cast a creature/plant and then that creature turning into a minor mage is huge. For you to be able to put out something that over a few rounds will become incredibly powerful and near impossible to shut down is a daunting thought for those going up against her.
She sets the tempo before the game even begins. That's a big deal. I truly look forward to my zombies cosplaying lumberjacks.

Aylin

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #499 on: October 29, 2013, 04:13:28 AM »

Ok, but even in your scenario (assuming a Harmonized Samara Tree) you'd still need to wait 4 turns in order to get the full 3 mana (4 mana off the price of whatever you cast -1 for the mana you spent when Samara Tree casted the pod in the first place). Even then that's only 1 more mana saved than if you had casted it from the Vine Tree and you don't need to wait 4 turns for it then. Now I get that there's probably something I'm missing here, but what is it? Perhaps I'm underestimating the Seedling Pods.

Yes in a one round comparison vine tree will generally be > Samara.

Extrapolate that into a game wide effect and it can look something like this.

Druid cast a Samara tree.

Next turn Samara tree casts a seed pod A.
Next turn Samara casts pod B. A is at 1.
Next turn Samara casts pod C. Pod A is at 2, pod B is at 1 mana.
Next turn Pod A becomes anything you want it to be, Samara tree remakes pod A, Pod B is at 2, Pod C is at 1.

This cycle never ends. The Samara tree lets you spend 2 mana to get 3 in a few rounds, and that 3 mana is 100% versatile.

Also one of the biggest things to note here is that all of those pods, and subsequent actions, are a byproduct of the tree. The druid spent ZERO actions to make the pods. The only action was placing the tree. Free mana and free actions. I know Vine tree is more appealing but Samara has always been my favorite tree in this set. The sleeper hit IMO.

Alright, so (assuming Samara on turn 1) on turn 5 your tree will start "generating" a net of one mana for you per turn (2 if you harmonize the Samara on turn 1 as well).  With the Vine Tree you start generating 1 (or 2 mana if Harmonized) on turn 2 with no wait time at all. Samara tree doesn't give you a mana advantage over Vine Tree unless you're cycling at least 4 Pods (in which case you start seeing returns on turn 6). The main advantage I can see over Vine Tree in this case is that you can cast any plant out of the pods instead of just vines, though that card-pool looks a little thin (mana flower, trees, wall of thorns iirc). I'm just not seeing a 3 turn delay being worth that without beatdown falling out of favour in the meta. On the other hand, the Vine Tree can also give some extra utility (1 mana for an extra vine marker).

I suppose a secondary advantage could be to cause your opponent to spend actions on the pods, though I can think of better ways of delaying an opponent (tanglevine, bloodspine wall, etc). At the same time though, there is a slight disadvantage since your opponent knows in which spaces you can cast spells, and when.
 
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So what do you do? Rush in to beat down the samara tree? That is a lot of mana and investment for a turn 1 decision. Kill the pods? Well they have cantrip so have fun. I can spend 2 mana to make you waste an action or two killing pods that come back next turn. An Etherian Life tree, which a pod can become, makes them all 7 health to boot.

Would rushing the Samara Tree (or Vine Tree) really be a bad thing? It's likely to have Treebond, so destroying it not only gets rid of a deployment ability, but lowers the Druid's life by 4, channeling by 1, and she also loses the benefit of Lifebond +2. Seems like pressing the attack against her and her lifebond tree quickly would be the way to go. This is the major problem I have with waiting until turn 5 to get a return on your investment with the Samara tree. Actually, on turn 5 (with no Harmonize on Samara) you've spend 8 on the tree and 8 more casting Pods. In the same amount of time you'd made 4 mana from Treebond and have 3 mana on a Pod you can spend. Even ignoring the cost of the Samara in the first place you're still down 1 mana. So in essence you've spent a 1 mana and 1 quick action turn 1 for 1 quick action on turn 5. (It's even worse if you harmonize; the mana difference is the same but now you've spent two actions to get 1 back.) In an attack, the Vine tree can start defending you from turn 2. (For comparison, on turn 5 a non-harmonized Vine Tree would cost 9 mana but generate 4 and give you an extra 4 from lifebond, net =-1 [or +8 from the Samara tree scenario]. Additionally it would have given you 3 more possible deployments.)

Of course, the longer you wait to deploy using the pods the more your mana returns increase...but the early tempo and mana costs for that plan seem like they would outweigh any benefit. And the loss of a 4+ mana Pod would be painful to your economy.

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Pods not popping fast enough? Use a shift enchantment wand :P

Are you suggesting that one should spend additional actions and mana to boost the pods? O_o



As a playtester you have more knowledge of the other cards than I do, so there may be something there that increases the effectiveness of the Samara Tree/Seedling Pod (such as a tree that increases the channeling of all other living creatures and conjurations by 1), but with the information I have right now the Samara Tree/Seedling Pod strategy looks inferior to the Vine Tree strategy due to the loss in tempo, especially since it doesn't offer a mana benefit unless you trade even more tempo for it. I really do hope there is something else that boosts it though.

Kharhaz

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #500 on: October 29, 2013, 07:49:48 AM »

As a playtester you have more knowledge of the other cards than I do

This ^

I am trying not to get into trouble here and It's hard describing a picture of a train when I can not say what the 2nd and 4th car look like. So I cannot properly champion this tree :P but i will try

You spend 7 mana (or 6 with ring) for Samara (tree bond increases your channel to 10). From here, on turn 5 the pods and tree give you 3 mana for every 2 spent (assuming you have not increased the channel, or dropped your own pods for 2 mana each which maintains the mana spent to gained ratio).

Vine tree is 9 mana (8 with ring) and can casts a vine spell each round,  but the channeled mana it provides is usually negated because you spend an extra mana to place a vine marker every round.

It is a relationship that will all come together when you are looking at her entire toolbox. My only point was do not underestimate the Samara tree right now. You can build books for either, or both! They serve vastly different rolls.




Apethemin

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #501 on: October 29, 2013, 11:00:33 AM »
Is there a rule I missed that doesn't allow for more than one type of tree out? Seems like most people are saying the Samara Tree or the Vine tree, I just don't understand why you wouldn't run both.

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #502 on: October 29, 2013, 11:36:19 AM »
It's in relation to her Tree bond skill and which is the superior tree for Tree bonding.

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #503 on: October 29, 2013, 12:00:24 PM »
Another update as we are close out October. We have seen some more equipment since the last update and some additional spells that were seen before but not Officially Spoiled:

Attack = 1 (5) [3]
Conjurations = 9 (8) [13]
Creatures = 17 (16) [24]
Enchantments = 2 (9) [4]
Equipment = 4 (11) [7]
Incantations = 1 (10) [4]
Walls = 1 (1) [2]

So we now have seen 35 of the 56 cards to be spoiled. We have seen 4 creatures and 1 Incantation that have not been officially spoiled so far.

Once again, I put the numbers of each Type of Spell from the FvM release in parenthesis and in square brackets are my guesses for the number for that spell Type in DvN release.

Looks like we have a couple of more names of creatures (could be wrong) a Mutating Zombie and Mort who looks like a bada&%! And lets not forget the Dragon!

I am guessing that Togorah and the Dragon will be spoiled last.
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lettucemode

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #504 on: October 29, 2013, 12:32:41 PM »
In your heeeaaadd...in your heeeaadd...Zombie! Zombie. Zombeh-eh-eh


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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #505 on: October 29, 2013, 12:38:05 PM »
So we now have seen 35 of the 56 cards to be spoiled. We have seen 4 creatures and 1 Incantation that have not been officially spoiled so far.

Once again, I put the numbers of each Type of Spell from the FvM release in parenthesis and in square brackets are my guesses for the number for that spell Type in DvN release.

Looks like we have a couple of more names of creatures (could be wrong) a Mutating Zombie and Mort who looks like a bada&%! And lets not forget the Dragon!

I am guessing that Togorah and the Dragon will be spoiled last.

I've been considering posting pictures of the set once it arrives at my house, I'll probably make a new thread for it. So the forumites will be ahead of the spoil curve.

Of course I don't want to throw off AW's plans, so if they have any problem with that, I will refrain...

Aylin

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #506 on: October 29, 2013, 12:56:52 PM »
So I cannot properly champion this tree

Exactly.

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[A]ssuming you have not increased the channel, or dropped your own pods for 2 mana each [with the Druid's Leaf Ring] which maintains the mana spent to gained ratio

That just saves you 1 mana though, exactly how much you would have saved had you just cast the plant directly using the ring.

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Vine tree is 9 mana (8 with ring) and can casts a vine spell each round,  but the channeled mana it provides is usually negated because you spend an extra mana to place a vine marker every round.

One could simply not use the ability for an extra vine marker though. It's just an extra tactical option, isn't it? It wouldn't make sense to use every turn regardless of the situation.

Quote
My only point was do not underestimate the Samara tree right now.

I can only base my opinion on the information I have currently. Once the set is released I will of course re-evaluate the cards I've seen, but for now my opinion of the Samara is pretty dismal.

Aylin

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #507 on: October 29, 2013, 01:18:59 PM »
Is there a rule I missed that doesn't allow for more than one type of tree out? Seems like most people are saying the Samara Tree or the Vine tree, I just don't understand why you wouldn't run both.

You can have as many trees out as you want afaik. The problem is that it isn't easily justifiable to cast more than 1 early, and it usually isn't worth it to cast a spawnpoint in the mid or late game.

If you cast both trees by turn 2 (making the first one your Treebond) you've spent a total of 17 mana on spawnpoints. In order to use Samara tree you'll need to pay 2 mana into it every turn (or harmonize it and pay 1 every turn from the information we have available right now). If the Samara was your first tree, by turn 5 you've put 25 mana into spawnpoints. In return you've made 4 mana from lifebond, 3 mana from your first mature pod, and 3 mana from the Vine tree (totaling 10). On turn 3 you've spent 21 mana on spawnpoints and only made 2 from channeling and 1 from the Vine tree (none of the pods are mature yet). This puts you incredibly behind your opponent in terms of mana, not really allowing you to take advantage of your deployments in the early game. If your opponent attacks early (and most competent opponents would after you've spent so much on spawnpoints) you'll be fighting an uphill battle just to remain even. A 9 channeling mage on turn 3 can come after you with 37 mana worth of stuff, but you'll only have 19 mana with which to mount a defense.  It's suicide.

If you wait to cast one of the trees however your buy-in cost is unchanged, but your benefit from it is decreased (less time to get returns on your investment). Spawnpoints generally aren't a good idea to cast after the first few turns of the game unless you have a significant lead.

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #508 on: October 29, 2013, 03:18:24 PM »
Wasnt the samara tree reduced to casting cost of 7 mana?

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #509 on: October 29, 2013, 06:10:30 PM »
Why is nobody talking about the awesome Unstable Zombie? Has it been spoiled before because I've got a feeling of deja vu...

It's not as good as Zombie Brute but its arguably better than the 7 cost 7 life Minion with exactly the same stats but no choice of exactly the right enhance. 2 more mana, 1 less life but choice of reconstruct 2, piercing 2 or non-lumbering. Yes please, put me down for 4!

Brute is far better because it isn't a Pest. Still, this ain't half sexy. Yet the chat is about that delayed pyramid mana generator that is Samara Tree with its sprout anywhere mechanic. Hello, there is a zombie elephant in the room! A very interesting level 2 creature.
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