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Author Topic: Druid vs Necro Spoilers  (Read 493620 times)

Wiz-Pig

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #150 on: September 15, 2013, 02:49:28 PM »
It seems like water -2 would have been sufficient anyway from a thematic perspective... It is a little puzzling that we ended up with this combo.

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #151 on: September 15, 2013, 03:00:43 PM »
hmm good point, sorry didn't think of that.

You would think if hydro immune a water spell would just not do damage but give the extinguish benefit.

Water should just wash over it and put out the fire.

So umm ya vulnerable to fire and immune to water that can help it put out the fire.  That is a bad combo.

Its not as bad as you may think...
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
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ringkichard

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #152 on: September 15, 2013, 07:20:35 PM »
I'm sure there's some other spell coming up that's really good at putting out fires, but hydro immunity interacting like this is the first "wait, what? That's not how it should work!" moment in an otherwise immaculately sensible game. There are very few moments of, "my Birds of Paradise is equipped with a Loxadon Warhammer, how!?" The rules almost always conform to theme. That aesthetic is a major selling point of the game.

Anyone who starts the game and sees that plants are vulnerable to fire but immune to water and that Geyser removes Burn tokens, is going to get a mental immage of using a jet of water to put out a burning tree. Cards should do what people think they do.

I'm going to be teaching this game to someone using the base Beastmaster and have to say, "actually, no, you can't save your burning Mana Flower with the Geyser in your book, because technically that plant is immune to water." That's unpleasant.

I mean, this isn't a game balance issue for intermediate level play, if there's some other spell that does the job just as well. It's just a rare rough spot in a game that's usually so slick. I get that it might be too late to solve this elegantly, and that all remaining repair options might be worse than just leaving it alone, but it's hard to imagine that it was intended design that I can't piss on my plants even if they're on fire.
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Stormmaster

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #153 on: September 15, 2013, 10:31:28 PM »
Well we haven't seen all the cards yet so maybe my comment of "why can't I remove burn counters and put out fires with a water spell that has extinguish on it" is a bit premature.

So there is either another option - or - the Druid and the plant horde is so powerful that it was designed in that way for a balance issue so you can burn down the forest. 

I do put the Renewing Spring card in EVERY spell book I make regardless of what Mage I am playing and the spring can remove burn conditions from water immune mobs so I guess that is one way.  Although difficult since 'most' I'm guessing will be rooted and might not be able to go to the spring to heal/cure themselves.

Regardless it doesn't sour me or turn me off the the Druid.  LOVE the theme of it.  So far (from what I've seen) I'm leaning towards favoring the Druid over the Necro but we shall see.  The both have some fun stuff!  Can't wait.

Moonglow

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #154 on: September 16, 2013, 12:26:52 AM »
Well we haven't seen all the cards yet so maybe my comment of "why can't I remove burn counters and put out fires with a water spell that has extinguish on it" is a bit premature.

I can't see how seeing more spells will address this.  Its a thematic break as much as a balance one.  I'm sure that there are other mechanics in play to maintain balance. 

There's a quote (from systems theory I think) that once you intervene in a system, the more intervention it requires.  Which becomes a bit of a perpetuating cycle. 

I suspect that as time goes on with more and more additions to the MW package, some to balance earlier concerns, or fit with previous decisions, the more chance there is of a growing inelegance.  Game balance and rule functionality will obviously be the prime focus, but it would be a shame if the underpinning principle that 'things work the way you think they should' gets lost on the way.

Saying that, I think its one point amongst hundreds of cards and dozens of spell types.  Don't let my narrow and pedantic world view detract from the awesomeness of the game and game system.


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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #155 on: September 16, 2013, 08:34:17 AM »
Well we haven't seen all the cards yet so maybe my comment of "why can't I remove burn counters and put out fires with a water spell that has extinguish on it" is a bit premature.

So there is either another option - or - the Druid and the plant horde is so powerful that it was designed in that way for a balance issue so you can burn down the forest. 

I do put the Renewing Spring card in EVERY spell book I make regardless of what Mage I am playing and the spring can remove burn conditions from water immune mobs so I guess that is one way.  Although difficult since 'most' I'm guessing will be rooted and might not be able to go to the spring to heal/cure themselves.

Regardless it doesn't sour me or turn me off the the Druid.  LOVE the theme of it.  So far (from what I've seen) I'm leaning towards favoring the Druid over the Necro but we shall see.  The both have some fun stuff!  Can't wait.

Burn hurts but can be stopped it does slow down her growth

druid is my favorite
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sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #156 on: September 16, 2013, 10:38:17 AM »
but it would be a shame if the underpinning principle that 'things work the way you think they should' gets lost on the way.
I have had a bit of a time with this to, until I realized that we are talking about magic pure and simple. Magical immunity is holistic for both the good and the bad. We are talking about magical water and magical fire after all. At that is what I tell myself  ::)
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ringkichard

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #157 on: September 16, 2013, 10:39:22 AM »
from Facebook
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 10:44:19 AM by ringkichard »
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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #158 on: September 16, 2013, 11:10:32 AM »
Very useful card in the Druids arsonal- Not your average spawn point-

Cheap spawnpoint-3mana! Has lower life...but it can regenerate! It can spawn creatures or conjurations- It itself has the vine subtype. These (And what come out of them) can come out of nowhere! If you don't keep your eye on the druid- nature will reclaim its throne.

Works great with the tree that was spoiled!
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
It has been around since the dawn of time,
it follows your loved ones as well as mine,
takes the form of a mountain as well as a flower,
it cannot be outrun by the greatest of power.
Where does my greatest enemy lie?
Within Shad0w.

Shad0w

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #159 on: September 16, 2013, 11:14:04 AM »
It is a game changer once you learn to play the druid
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


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ringkichard

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #160 on: September 16, 2013, 11:20:22 AM »
So let me see if I've got this right:
First turn, Samara Tree with Treebond.
Second turn (and every following turn), Samara Tree spawns a Seed Pod, costs Druid 2 mana.
Third turn, Seed Pod adds one mana.
Fourth turn, Seed Pod adds one mana.
Fifth turn, Seed Pod adds one mana, and can cast a plant creature or conjuration.

On Fifth turn, there will be up to four Seed Pods, with 3, 2, 1 and 0 mana on them.
Treebond has generated 5 mana. The 3 mana Seed Pod is available for use, which will destroy it.

This cost 8 for the Tree, and 2 for each pod = 16 mana. It cost 1 action.
It has generated 8 mana and one extra action available 5th turn. It breaks even, mostly.

After 5th turn, this arrangement generates one extra action each turn. It costs two mana, but generates 1 from treebond and 3 from the maturing Pod, for a net gain of 2 mana. Of course, Druid starts 1 channeling in the hole compared to other casters (9 channeling, no melee bonus), so lets count this as 1 mana. And, when it's important, she can stop casting new Seed Pods to gain "extra" mana instead.

So, to sum up, 8 mana for a Full Action Spawnpoint and +1 channeling, but it doesn't do anything for the first 4 turns. It's potentailly the best spawn point ever printed, but you're gonna have to work for it.

Interesting. Better than it looks, but dangerously vulnerable to Warlock and Fire Wizard? That 5 turn tactical delay is potentially dooming against a rush.

People have been calling Seedling Pod a spawnpoint, and I don't think so. It doesn't really do any better than breaking even. It costs one action and it generates one action. It costs 2 or 3 mana, and it generates 3 mana. It seems like the timer mechanism for the real spawnpoint, Samara Tree.
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sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #161 on: September 16, 2013, 11:27:16 AM »
Wow synergistic Spawnpoints! The Samara Tree spawnpoint casts the Seedling Point spawnpoint, which in turn casts a creature or conjuration and since it is now a Cantrip the Seedling Pod goes back in your book.

Just thinking down these paths has my brain marveling at the creators of this expansion.

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sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #162 on: September 16, 2013, 11:41:44 AM »
So let me see if I've got this right:
First turn, Samara Tree with Treebond.
Second turn (and every following turn), Samara Tree spawns a Seed Pod, costs Druid 2 mana.
Treebond is not an action, so why not also Harmonize the Tree?

- Second turn (and every following turn), Samara Tree spawns a Seed Pod, costs Druid 1 mana.

Seems very well worth it. The other very interesting fact is that Seedling Pod is not a Zone Exclusive so you could have a couple in the same zone making it easier to protect.
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Stormmaster

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #163 on: September 16, 2013, 11:44:47 AM »
Wow this looks awesome.  ;D

Even if it does get torched or weed whacked before it can spawn anything at the very least for only 3 mana it could eat an attack from a creature, that would otherwise be at you or one of your creatures.

Cantrip will help with the spellbook points (even though this is lvl 1).

I presume rules printed on the card override other rules correct?

So even though normally a vine card (which this is) can usually cast vine spells (which this could cast) can "normally" cast those spells in any zone with a Vine Marker this one can't destroy vine markers to extend it's reach because it specifies otherwise on the card itself?  Makes sense since the pod is rooted to the ground so it would spawn from that and not elsewhere, just wanted to clarify since Vine Marker rules contridict the rules for this vine spell.  (Which is totally fine IMO, again just asking).

Koz

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #164 on: September 16, 2013, 11:49:46 AM »
Well...now we know what the Seedling Pod is.  It's not a trait, it's an actual card.  Hmmm, so the Samara tree spawnpoint is used for spawning these things only, which in turn can spawn other plants at the cost of destroying itself.  Not sure how I feel about this yet.  I see the design concept here, its the whole "spreading plants" thing.  But I'm not sure how well it will actually work.  First impressions to follow...

1.  I'm not sure how much I like the idea of a spawnpoint (the Samara tree) spawning a specific card, as opposed to a certain type of creature.  Too one dimensional for my tastes, but I'll give it a try.

2.  Seedling Pods seem like they will be a bit slow.  These cards are too fragile to waste a Harmonize on and they have no innate way to generate additional mana like other spawnpoints so they will take a full three turns before they are ready to function...plenty of time for someone to destroy them, which brings me to...

3.  They are really fragile.  5 health and Flame +2 means these things will die in droves to the Warlock and/or a Fire Wizard.  I have images of Firebrand Imps and Flaming Hellions merrily skipping around the board and burning the arena to ash.  They will have the Cantrip trait if you have Samara out, which is something I guess, but you'll need to keep casting them, which brings me to...

4.  They are cheap, which is a bit of a saving grace.  But are they cheap enough considering how fragile they are?  I'm not sure.  The Samara tree will pay for 1 mana, but the Druid will still be coughing up 2 if she wants to play them as fast as possible.  Then the Seedlings will take three turns before they do anything... 

5.  They are Vines so they can be used in conjunction with the Druid's Spreading Vines ability.  That's a big plus.
   
So, the question is, can the Druid overgrow the arena with enough targets to the point that the opponent has too many targets to kill them all so they just keep spreading and spreading?  Obviously that's the design idea, but we'll have to see how it works in actual play.

Hopefully the Druid will have some way to combat Warlocks and Fire Wizards, otherwise they just seem like they will be facerolled hard.  I'm sure there is something to do it, it HAD to come up in playtesting, we'll just have to see what it is. 

Also, hopefully there will be some unique Druid items and/or Incantations that allow these plants to grow faster, or produce mana faster, or whatever.  I'm sure there will be.

Can't wait to see what else the Druid has because she seems really interesting and fun.  I'm sure most of our fears will be put to rest once we see the rest of the set, or at least I hope so ;)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 11:55:06 AM by Koz »