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Author Topic: Druid vs Necro Spoilers  (Read 484015 times)

DeckBuilder

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #360 on: October 10, 2013, 09:50:34 AM »
They posted something on FB about there being a new rule in the DvN rulebook that explains how to work Conjurations with attacks.  I'm sure it will use the ready marker mechanic, they just put it in the rulebook so they don't have to re-print that text on every card that uses it.

Say it's a ready marker before or after own action. So I act last off-initiative and move into zone with this. Next turn I act first and move out unhindered. Or I could just double move through. Hardly difficult to bypass. You spent 7 mana, 1 fast action and 3 (!!!) spell points on a slight annoyance.

Still my flyers get hurt too (attracted by bright colour?). My Non-Living are immune so could be totally redundant in match-up.

Really shocked. Sorry guys. Miss.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 09:57:38 AM by DeckBuilder »
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Laddinfance

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #361 on: October 10, 2013, 09:57:25 AM »
I can understand how this card may not look great in a vacuum. But I think when the full set is out this will be a very usable card.

DeckBuilder

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #362 on: October 10, 2013, 10:03:54 AM »
I get that it's an offensive Vine attack. But worth 3 spell points? I pay 9+level mana and 3 spell points to deal minimal damage and Sleep at vine range (spending a vine marker). Or pay 4 spell points and c. 2xlevel to Sleep at range 2. Sounds fair, might as well say Druid Only.

But the problem is Poison and Psychic, affecting only Living. It makes it a niche sideboard card. For which you spend 3 spellpoints? I just can't see it being played in anything except the most fun, casual concepts.

It's like how much Jokhtari was nerfed just by a totally unnecessary "Living" in Wounded Prey. Of course Bleed has to be Living non-Plant. Why create poor match-ups by adding Living to her mage ability? I've bitten the zombie's arm off, it is my Wounded Prey. My Earth Wizard laughs at you, Jokhtari.

It is flavoursome though. Venus Fly Trap gives you a clue what it should have been...
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 10:18:08 AM by DeckBuilder »
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sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #363 on: October 10, 2013, 11:50:36 AM »
Might work well in a FM book. Set the Nightshade and pull that Grizzly into the zone with it and blam we have a nice little Teddy Bear....

Meaning it would work very well against a few Bigs strategy.....

At least I think it would...timing is everything!
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 11:55:23 AM by sIKE »
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echephron

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #364 on: October 10, 2013, 11:57:45 AM »
Don't know why there is so much hate on this sleep flower. It looks functional and fun to me. think of it as a level 1 creature(~5mana with 2 mana preinvested in the sleep spell) which can cast one(level 2 nature) sleep spell. added together, that should be 3 spellpoints, the same total mana cost, and not any less. And as for those who would prefer some sort of trap, this thing can trap just fine. The vine or seedling pod is the trap. If you have initiative, cast the flower in deployment, from a vine or defensive seedling pod then do the attack asap at beginning of round, or just quickcast it all.  If you cast the flower when you need the sleep effect, then there is no chance for it to die before the sleepening.

I would feel more at ease casting it before needing the sleep if the flower costed one less and the sleep costed one more though. The only big bad thing is that it has range 0 and can't move, which I'm fine with.  I am more worried about the Beastmaster getting a nature sleep spell from this card.  It doesnt compare well with the goblin slinger(lev2, 7 mana, soldier, 3 ranged attack which is actually ranged)
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sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #365 on: October 10, 2013, 11:57:59 AM »
I can understand how this card may not look great in a vacuum. But I think when the full set is out this will be a very usable card.

Are we going to see any more, of the very nice and well done, in-depth D v N Preview write ups that Aaron and other have done over on the MageWars.com site?
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patrickconnor

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #366 on: October 10, 2013, 12:12:18 PM »
I can understand how this card may not look great in a vacuum. But I think when the full set is out this will be a very usable card.

Are we going to see any more, of the very nice and well done, in-depth D v N Preview write ups that Aaron and other have done over on the MageWars.com site?

Yes sir! There are going to be daily updates from here on out. Major Props to Aaron and the rest of our Druid vs Necromancer team for their work in sharing the world of the Druid and Necromancer.

HomelessJoe

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #367 on: October 10, 2013, 12:35:06 PM »
As Laddin suggested in a vacuum this isn't showing it's full potential. So we have to take all speculation with a grain of salt. With that said, I think this card would be so much more useful competitively if it was modeled after ballista, or a facedown trap/conjuration blend (for the surprise element), or at the very least a mass sleep. Spending all that mana for a stationary conj with three attack dice and a one off sleep with a range of 0-0 doesn't seem viable on any real level. Might as well be a wall, just go around it. Plus even if somebody really loved these they are probably only going to have one or two in their deck just because of the high point cost.

As far as the forcmaster strategy, it's true that would work, but your mage has to use up one valuable quickcast in order to make one of it's conjurations effective. No thank you. Just throw a sleep in your book and move on.

sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #368 on: October 10, 2013, 12:49:07 PM »
As far as the forcmaster strategy, it's true that would work, but your mage has to use up one valuable quickcast in order to make one of it's conjurations effective. No thank you. Just throw a sleep in your book and move on.
Fair enough, the thought here is a way to get an additional attack with out paying the 3*Spellbook cost for  non-Mind creatures and get a sleep to go along with it. Do not discount what this means for board control. It makes it a spot that you deny your opponent from resting freely in. Since this "sleep" is neither a Enchantment nor Incantation it is not Nullify/Reverse Magic able also...
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HomelessJoe

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #369 on: October 10, 2013, 01:02:54 PM »
I'll give you that  8)

DeckBuilder

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #370 on: October 10, 2013, 02:11:24 PM »
Don't know why there is so much hate on this sleep flower. It looks functional and fun to me.

Welcome to the forum and good defence, sir!

It is definitely fun because it is very flavoursome: it certainly appeals to the roleplayer in me. But it is a very niche spell. The reasons are:
(a) Range 1. This means it is mainly useful via vine range so effectively Druid Only.
(b) only vs. Living. Useless against any Necromancer, most Earth Wizards, Golem Warlord, Stalker Forcemaster and Undead Warlock.
Definition of niche = an effective Mage X Only card that is also only effective against some Mage builds.

Is it worth investing 3 spell points of your 120 budget in a card that may be redundant? Only if it is a Silver Bullet in the meta. This isn't one.

I could have 1 Lotus or 3 Tanglevines (same vine range but played by other mages at range 2). Hard choice...

think of it as a level 1 creature(~5mana with 2 mana preinvested in the sleep spell) which can cast one(level 2 nature) sleep spell. added together, that should be 3 spellpoints, the same total mana cost, and not any less.

It's not a level 1 creature. It's a conjuration. It does not give me action overlap to time my moves correctly (which a rooted creature would). It does not hinder (which a rooted creature would). It cannot be buffed up by enchantments or commands. It is a structure or terrain that can attack via a ready marker. This can be game breaking if you can stack them. It's not an issue in this case as its range is 0 and teleporting victim into multiples has no benefit as multiple Sleep does not stack (good design here). It is less than a level 1 creature.

So you pay 9 + target level vs. 2x target level for a Sleep. Because the damage is minimal here. To use it as a quick cast or Deployment attack, it breaks most Channelling thresholds so requires pre-planned saved mana. It's not a on-the-fly Fly Trap.

Because of vine range, it is a potentially useful toolbox option for a Druid. But I can see many Druids deciding it just doesn't "make the cut" at 3 spell points for a situational spell.

(Rise Again is another example, but I believe it costs 3 spell points because of potential recursive abuse with Curse Weaving)

And as for those who would prefer some sort of trap, this thing can trap just fine. The vine or seedling pod is the trap. If you have initiative, cast the flower in deployment, from a vine or defensive seedling pod then do the attack asap at beginning of round, or just quickcast it all.  If you cast the flower when you need the sleep effect, then there is no chance for it to die before the sleepening.

All good points, sir.

I think Seedling Pods germinate thinking "when I grow up, I wanna be a Tree" and are generally wasted on vines (but the option exists). Yes you can Vine Tree Deploy or QC attack with it anywhere with a vine marker. But you can do that with new Tanglevines, 3 times over.

Ok, on reflection, this is grossly unfair because it is judging a card in a vacuum. Etherian Lifetree will pump it up. It gets round Mordok's Obelisk and Altar of Peace. It does help stake ownership of a zone against an opponent who is playing Living. It can target Flyers (those airborne spores) whilst Tanglevine can't. Yes, I can see a Druid running one of them as a toolbox option. But it will never make any other mage book and is likely to be useless in many match-ups.

As a Druid, from previews so far (big proviso), I think I prefer +1 Tanglevine, +1 Surging Wave, +1 Acid Ball over 1 Lotus Nightshade.

It's a shame as it is such a great flavoursome thematic card. And I love the homage image reference to a certain $1000 Magic card...
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 02:40:32 PM by DeckBuilder »
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Laddinfance

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #371 on: October 10, 2013, 02:26:42 PM »
Actually the design is an homage to a certain classic of fantasy literature. The art, that's another story. I do love the art.

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #372 on: October 10, 2013, 02:41:40 PM »
Great points Deck. I think I'm a little too negative on this card. I tend to do that on cards that I would love in my book but know I wont or under very rare circumstances ever play. Again vacuum, grain of salt...just going on card alone in current meta. I love the thematic imagery of this conjuration, spores flying through the sky putting big baddies to sleep. Making the Druid a very strong passive attacker. All of which makes this sting a little bit more.


Ohhhh, another idea which I think would have been super fun is if the spores traveled in the air. You would use the existing directional mechanic in game to determine spore direction. When entering a square filled with mobs they would roll individually to see if the spores effected them that round. If so, they fall asleep. The spores dissipated after 3-4 moves. With that in play I could see the one time use being a bit more reasonable.

DeckBuilder

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #373 on: October 10, 2013, 03:00:22 PM »
Actually the design is an homage to a certain classic of fantasy literature. The art, that's another story. I do love the art.

What classic?!? It sounds so familiar... Was this a plant-based sleep poison used in Fafhrd and The Gray Mouser? Elric? Hyperboreans? Sparrowhawk? Pug? Jeez, I'm gonna have to google this as it's bugging me now. My OCD...

(In my old D&D campaign, Black Lotus is a very expensive flower drug originating from Cathay (Orient) used by magic-users to enhance spell-casting but at the cost of addiction and insanity. I knew I had stolen the idea from a fantasy novel but couldn't remember which one.)


I too love the art. The colours. The lotus petals in the shade with the night background, the deadly luring scent emanating. So evocative.

For a card that is so niche for Druid, was it so hard to make it level 2? I'm warming to the card but there are so many other cheaper toys. Yes, Beastmasters gain access to range 1 sleep at cost 2. For every other mage, it is better to choose range 2 cheaper Sleep over this.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 03:10:09 PM by DeckBuilder »
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ringkichard

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #374 on: October 10, 2013, 03:11:53 PM »
It reminded me that I haven't fed my flying monkeys yet today.

Also, it's a conjuration that attacks. Anyone writing it off without playing it is ignoring this game's history.
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