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Author Topic: Druid vs Necro Spoilers  (Read 496241 times)

HomelessJoe

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #405 on: October 13, 2013, 08:17:42 PM »
Resilient is just so thematic and I really have to take my hat off to the designers/play testers who came up and tested this. It makes me think of the horde of zombies getting chopped to bits by machine guns, some go down, but most just keep on trudging along. Brilliant! Well done guys.

As far as walled sniper, I would think any ranged fighters are going to be the way to go. Otherwise of course you risk giving your opponent an extra zombie with which to kill you (assuming they have the ziggurat).

Deck, i'm not so sure about the idea that low level creatures will be less handicapped. Statistically so, but overall gameplay I could see them being used even less against a Necromancer. The mage will have to consider each mob he summons may be turned. Therefore they will most likely summon only a handful of big baddies. In conjunction with that if they summon low level mobs the direct damage from pestilence or any other ongoing poisons might kill them before they are even able to be an effective threat. Which would then give the Necro graveyard mana that he didn't have to do anything for. I would think that going up against a Necro you would use as little living creatures as possible, but if you did the highest hit points possible. In other words i'll be fighting lots of golemns in the coming days.

I'm very excited, the Necromancer is going to be a very formidable mage, especially against creature based books. Not yet decided on Forcemaster/ Unliving i.e. Golemn builds.

DeckBuilder

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #406 on: October 13, 2013, 09:41:45 PM »
Deck, i'm not so sure about the idea that low level creatures will be less handicapped. Statistically so, but overall gameplay I could see them being used even less against a Necromancer. The mage will have to consider each mob he summons may be turned. Therefore they will most likely summon only a handful of big baddies. In conjunction with that if they summon low level mobs the direct damage from pestilence or any other ongoing poisons might kill them before they are even able to be an effective threat. Which would then give the Necro graveyard mana that he didn't have to do anything for. I would think that going up against a Necro you would use as little living creatures as possible, but if you did the highest hit points possible. In other words i'll be fighting lots of golemns in the coming days.

I take your point about reanimates. I had not considered the Ziggurat: it's a 2 armour 8 life Epic conjuration that must be taken out against a zombie themed Necromancer build as that action advantage is too good. But even with it in play, low level weenies feed the Graveyard less than any Elite. Etherian Lifetree pumps them all more. Although I do admit Foxes are particularly bad against the Necromancer as they come back at normal speed. My own feeling is that Straywood Beastmaster will run 6 Falcons though because of Etherian Lifetree.

I actually think there is an addendum they should make to "Lumbering": this creature cannot guard. Not being able to double-move only really hurts against ranged. Not being able to guard as well (who has ever heard of a zombie guarding - skeletons do that work) gives the trait some relevance. I know Bloodthirsty can prevent you guarding but that does not prevent that initial guard marker being placed.

What the living factions really need is something like this card...

"All You Can Eat Buffet", Nature 1 Arcane 1 (genetic animal experiment, gigantic mutant pig)
No attack, 0 armour, Life 31, Regenerate 3, Slow, this creature always has 1 damage that can never be removed
This creature triggers Bloodthirsty creatures in adjacent zones with LOS to move to it if no other Wounded target.

This would be the ideal lure to distract all those chasing zombies! Until it meets its sausage maker in the sky, poor thing...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 09:52:05 PM by DeckBuilder »
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Wiz-Pig

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #407 on: October 13, 2013, 09:45:12 PM »
Indeed good points Joe. The Necromancer is looking like he is going to be able to stand toe to toe with the Wizard and if the playtester's claims of balance between him and the Druid hold true we have two powerhouse mages coming out. It seems as though Beastmaster and Warlock are getting a signiifcant boost through this set as well (though maybe a bit less for the Warlock). I have to wonder how the other Mages are going to fair after this release though. Does anyone see anything spoiled so far that helps the Priestess or Forcemaster? There seems to be a little bit for the Warlord though he obviously needs a lot (and I mean a lot) more to actually be in play.

I am a little worried that the Wizard was designed in such a way that he is uniquely positioned to benefit from just about every powerful card that comes out no what the designers intentions are moving forward. Giving him training in Arcane and a Minor school with no weakness is just crazy flexible since Arcane supports virtually every style of build.

Wiz-Pig

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #408 on: October 13, 2013, 09:46:42 PM »
I actually think there is an addendum they should make to "Lumbering": this creature cannot guard. Not being able to double-move only really hurts against ranged. Not being able to guard as well (who has ever heard of a zombie guarding - skeletons do that work) gives the trait some relevance. I know Bloodthirsty can prevent you guarding but that does not prevent that initial guard marker being placed.

Oof good point guarding Zombies just seems all sorts of wrong and seems especially problematic with large zombie hoards forming.

HomelessJoe

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #409 on: October 13, 2013, 09:56:00 PM »
Yeah i'll give you that, as much as I don't want to. Lumbering should prevent guarding. Zombies roam, simple as that.


What the living factions really need is something like this card...

"All You Can Eat Buffet", Nature 1 Arcane 1 (genetic animal experiment, gigantic mutant pig)
No attack, 0 armour, Life 31, Regenerate 3, Slow, this creature always has 1 damage that can never be removed
This creature triggers Bloodthirsty creatures in adjacent zones with LOS to move to it if no other Wounded target.

This would be the ideal lure to distract all those chasing zombies! Until it meets its sausage maker in the sky, poor thing...


HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, amazing!!!

HomelessJoe

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #410 on: October 13, 2013, 10:07:30 PM »
I am a little worried that the Wizard was designed in such a way that he is uniquely positioned to benefit from just about every powerful card that comes out no what the designers intentions are moving forward. Giving him training in Arcane and a Minor school with no weakness is just crazy flexible since Arcane supports virtually every style of build.

I couldn't agree more. Why the wizard gets not only the most versatile school of magic (Arcane) and any element is beyond me. When you compare other mages almost all of them have a nemesis school (warlock to holy, etc), or a severe handicap (warlord to arcane, etc). Honestly I think the wizard needs a simple errata and just take off the element. He will still be a top contender, but just not so overly powerful that it becomes a bit silly. That way he can be more like the beastmaster, no handicap in any real way but also limited in versatility. There is a reason why there are so many wizards running around after all.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 10:11:49 PM by HomelessJoe »

IndyPendant

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #411 on: October 14, 2013, 03:17:03 AM »
"Silly"?  That seems a little harsh--although admittedly I had forgotten that Resilient effectively plays as infinite armour, so it's not going down in two hits then. ; )  Still, the rest of what I said does apply, as well as the fact that Bloodthirsty comes with inherent drawbacks--including not being able to guard btw, if there are any damaged living creatures in its zone.

Again, to clarify: I'm not saying it's a bad card.  It's clearly a good card, one that will be included in almost any necro build.  I'm just saying I don't see it as crazy imbalanced.  That's the perception I'm responding to, here.

*shrug*  I haven't been playing all that long though--about two months, now.  Maybe time will prove me wrong.

Laddinfance

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #412 on: October 14, 2013, 08:42:48 AM »
@Deckbuilder - Most zombies are pests, and even the ones that are not have bloodthirsty. This greatly decreases your tactical options against living foes, if the player is cunning. I know I've left wounded creatures behind so that Zombies couldn't follow me.

In general Zombies require a very different bag of tricks than most players are use to.  I found wall of steel incredibly effective. They don't get any bonus dice against it and it's high armor take quite a while to take down. However, Lumbering makes simply walking around the wall very time consuming.

Also, Quicksand is incredible versus bloodthirsty foes. If there is something wounded then they can't attempt their escape roll.

I think that Force Crush is going to be one of the best cards to combat large dangerous Zombies. It does direct damage that is not poison, and it completely immobilizes them. Forced movement is always amazing.

In the end, yes this guy is pretty dang sweet, but the tools are there to help deal with him.

sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #413 on: October 14, 2013, 09:58:06 AM »
Also, Quicksand is incredible versus bloodthirsty foes. If there is something wounded then they can't attempt their escape roll.
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DeckBuilder

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #414 on: October 14, 2013, 11:30:21 AM »
There must be a drawback we are missing. We have to trust it is balanced, of course they must have play-tested this thoroughly.

@ Laddinfance. I did couch my concerns with a get-out clause. Great points though and you certainly put me in my place! :)

Let's focus on Zombie traits then.

Lumbering

I did realise walls cause Lumbering trouble, manned Archer Tower behind of course. Luckily this is a mainstream build. I suspect this will become even more popular after the DvN release. It's really nice how currently under-used walls will have gained more tactical relevance.

The fact that Zombie Minions were Pests was the main reason why I could see how to deal with them. Anybody can always get away (until surrounded, like in zombie movies). Although a zombie foxhunt would be amusing. Where are the zombie hounds...?

Force Wave is really strong (and points cheap) against Lumbering zombies (also to move ranged units into position). You trade quick for full action with a Force Push or Jet Stream (maybe free with a Tower), much like against Slow threat. But it's like the Boxer vs. the Wrestler. At first, the Boxer will get some good hits in with his reach. But once the Resilient Wrestler makes contact, the Boxer is in big trouble.

Lumbering is bad if you're also a Pest (like Minion) but Brute is not one. It's a handicap against ranged or walls. It's also bad against vine range, allowing blindsiding attacks far from you. It ain't that bad in other cases which sadly is the majority of situations in a normal game.

Bloodthirsty

Wow. I'd never thought of the interaction of Quicksand with Bloodthirsty. I'd always looked at Quicksand as just this highly variable length (like burn) restraint + distraction action with a 24% kill chance after 4 escape attempts. I have considered it with Sleep but paying 4x level and 2 fast actions for a 4-round delay where the victim may be woken and escape seemed a bit too combo-tastic, not particularly mana efficient. However, unlike Pop-Up Sniper, running Quicksand is a luxury for anyone outside of Earth Wizard or Warlord. I've run Quicksand with a regenerating Thorg's Taunt before to great benefit. Doh! I should've extended its use to other compulsion effects. Nice!

Bloodthirsty is a lovely double-edged sword (or drawback if +0). I already mentioned this prevents guarding while there is wounded living around. In practice, you would use support (like Pestilence) to trigger it and can sequence attacks to mitigate its drawback in most cases. You leave a wounded sacrifice but it's at low life so my Minion just takes it out (and maybe converts it) then my Brute is free to follow you (having hindered opposing mage leaving its zone).

My main issue with Bloodthirsty is it is not forced to go after the least life. Most games aren't a theoretical masterpieces of elegant tactical manoeuvring. They soon devolve into a grand melee free-for-all. The opposing mage is often wounded and mobility hobbled in some way (Enfeebled?). Bloodthirsty really has no drawback in this situation, only its extra dice benefit. As mages often have the most life remaining, if Bloodthirsty forced you to choose the target with least life (choose if equal), it would be far more debilitating than it is.

Resilient

You mention Force Crush as a direct damage solution. A kill using this requires far more than the 11 mana it costs to summon a Brute at equal 3 spell points spend (double if not Forcemaster). Whilst Steel Wall and Quicksand with wounded target are nice Earth plays, I really can't see Force Crush as an elegant mana-efficient and spell points-efficient solution.

Water's acidic Corrode is obviously direct damage of choice (damage now not later). Books need Corrode in case of zombie match-ups? Air pushes and Fire burns. So Earth is thankfully weakest here. Yes, I can see that zombies will encourage more elemental attack spells. That's a really clever meta-changer actually. Because the game temporarily lost something thematically "special" with the current lack of zonal attacks and distance nuking (except as a finisher).

Incorporeal is 1/3 damage per die, armour irrelevant
Resilient is 1/2 damage per die, armour irrelevant
Normal is 1/2 damage per die, armour irrelevant + 1/2 damage per die, armour relevant but mitigated by piercing

I like how Resilient says "your piercing does nothing to me, acid however is not so good". It oozes with zombie flavour. It just that without anti-Resilient tools as stated in News, it just seems too good. There is Falcon Precision, Divine Might, Piercing Strike etc. But there is no silver bullet for Resilient so leaving the zombie's life so high seems dangerously optimal...

Nonliving

So they cannot be healed or buffed by most enchantments. Poison Immunity is great and can be leveraged with Pestilence (synergy with Bloodthirsty, Necromancer). In addition Deathlock can nerf the Living to share Nonliving's Finite Life. There are also a lot of effects you are immune to (Bleed, Wounded Prey, curses etc). In a well built deck, Nonliving (with its accompanying Psychic Immunity in most cases) can be a boon. Ask Earth Wizard with 4 Iron Golems, Pestilence, Deathlock etc.

Yes, Holy's Light is good against Nonliving. And there is Etherian Lifetree now to make it more of a drawback. But Nonliving is simply an alternate lifestyle choice. You still have those same 120 spell points, you just spend them differently around your Nonliving creature base.

Summary

Both Steel Wall and Quicksand are indeed great answers for zombies but too niche outside of Earth Wizard or Warlord. Force Crush seems so mana-inefficient (and simply Dispelled) to slowly remove a Brute that cost just 11 mana. Force Wave however is very cheap.

As I said before, of course you guys have playtested this. But what this says is that every book needs to have anti-zombie tech (or just hope you don't match-up). This further erodes your spell point pool, preventing you from imposing your own game plan consistently.

Because Nonliving is so different to Living in how to deal with it, some builds are pretty much stiffed (Jokhtari's Dire Wolves Bloodthirsty Bleed Wounded Prey with Pestilence Deathlock, Forcemaster's Psychic Controller etc). The reason Earth Wizard is so strong is because it plays very different to all other builds. Necromancer has the same benefits here, but with better support and synergies.

What the Necromancer Zombie build may do to the meta is stifle proactive strategies by spending points on reactive what-if solutions.

The cards previewed are mostly really exciting though, completely game changing. Just worried about Brute unbalancing a game I love.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 01:19:51 PM by DeckBuilder »
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Laddinfance

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #415 on: October 14, 2013, 12:04:08 PM »
Excellent Summary Deckbuilder! I will add that fire is fantastic against zombies as well.  Many times playtesting, I simply avoided the zombie brutes. By using tanglevines and other cards that give the stuck condition I was really able to control those creatures.  I absolutely agree that Nonliving is a boon in many circumstances.

One thing to keep in mind, you don't always have to kill the creature to deal with it. Enchantments like Agony are fantastic against almost any creature. Also, Chains of Agony is an odd source of direct damage, and Molock's Torment can help take zombies down.

One of the things I love about zombies is that they encourage people to look back at old cards and see what will really be effective.

Thank you again for this overview, Deckbuilder. It may be worth building a thread about dealing with resilient creatures. This is good tactical advice.

HomelessJoe

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #416 on: October 14, 2013, 12:08:46 PM »
I never considered force crush. Further concern for forcemasters. However, I think this card can be said for almost every big baddie. Thankfully with the huge upkeep cost it can't be spammed. 

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #417 on: October 14, 2013, 12:16:29 PM »
The Priest's Malakai's Fire will be very handy here, throw in the Daze/Stun potential and +2 Nonliving of the Staff of Asyra plus Ring of Light and I would add in a Bear Strength (9 Die Stack + Burn) and he will take the brute down quicker than your average bear boo boo.
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baronzaltor

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #418 on: October 14, 2013, 01:56:40 PM »
The thing with Resilient is that creatures who have it had their health lowered to compensate..which is why a Zombie Brute has 10 health whereas a Bridge Troll has 16, and other creatuers in that cost/level family have health in the teens.

Because of their lower health, lucky rolls and direct damage are more meaningful against them.  A lucky crit heavy roll is going to hurt a Knight of Westlock, but 6-7 health isnt going to put him out of the game.   A lucky crit roll on a zombie will usually kill it though, or at least put you most of the way there on a bigger one.  The thing with Resilient is its a game of extremes.  Some games it will feel like you cant kill the fodder zombies no matter what you do.  Then in other games, youll one-shot them every attack.

Another good source of direct damage is Chains of Agony.. its only 2 mana to cast and 1 to reveal , combined with push/jetstream/surging wave and/or kiting you can make lower-mid level zombies kill themselves just by taking move actions.   If you happen to be a Warlock, Chains of Agony+Molochs Torment is a good way to melt zombies and you get your Chains when they die.

Ironically, Warlock is one of the better mages for dealing with Zombies.  Curse Weaving, Molochs Torment, and Demonhide Armor are all sources of direct damage combined with his natural access to fire. (The Fire damage barrier is also a good play against them if you arent a Dark Mage for demonhide armor)  As bad as Gate to Hell is, this set makes it one of the best anti-zombie cards in the game since it can get burn tokens on an arena full of zombies in one big burst. If you get lucky on your rolls you can melt most of the hoard in one pop.

HomelessJoe

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #419 on: October 14, 2013, 02:56:28 PM »
Another good source of direct damage is Chains of Agony.. its only 2 mana to cast and 1 to reveal , combined with push/jetstream/surging wave and/or kiting you can make lower-mid level zombies kill themselves just by taking move actions.   If you happen to be a Warlock, Chains of Agony+Molochs Torment is a good way to melt zombies and you get your Chains when they die.

I think what Deck is saying is that due to these extremes each mage is going to have to seriously consider using  precious spell points to put these cards in their book just to compensate when they wouldn't have otherwise. Therefore lowing their normal strategy/attack. This is especially true in a tournament setting due to the 'what if' factor. I am quite happy about this though. This expansion is really going to add alot of variety and options to our existing game. If you can do that each expansion you guys are ahead of the curve, as alot of expansions just give more of the same. I'm quite curious what is in store for the future. BEST GAME EVER!