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Author Topic: Druid vs Necro Spoilers  (Read 491737 times)

DeckBuilder

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #420 on: October 14, 2013, 03:12:30 PM »
@Baron. This all makes imminent sense, greater variance in survivability etc. Like greater variance with smaller dice rolls, but in reverse.

I really like how mobility and board control (e.g. Lumbering, push, Chains) are interacting to add even more layers of subtlety to the game.

So Fire seems to be great against both Necromancer and Druid. Warlock gets a nifty curseweaving card in Rise Again and retains access to burn dealing creatures. Unloved fire demons finally take prime spot for Bloodreaper status. So Warlock aggro is back. Burn, baby, burn!

But Fire Wizard also looks a good meta-choice with Jelly cleaning the arena of Druid's conjurations and Rooted creatures (and a Teleport kill zone), corroding Resilients, not hurt by Necromancer's anti-living tech (Bloodthirsty, Pestilence, Deathlock etc) with Wizard's Tower for attack utility (Acid Ball and Jet Stream only cost 2 spell points), Suppression Cloak and other Mana Drain tech for Swarms and Few Bigs. From cards previewed so far, "Jelly Fire" will be a nice control build to fit the meta after this set comes out.
 
I see most other mages have been strengthened (e.g raptors have Jokhtari focus damage written all over them to compensate for her bad Necro match-up) but I'm gonna back "Jelly Fire" to be a tier 1 control build in the new meta (along with Warlock aggro of course). You can just Jelly Pit with 4 Jelly, Fire and Teleport Transfusion but both new mages look backseat generals so this (thankfully) won't work as well.

Maybe Warlord with Pop-Up Sniper and Quicksand Thorg gets his day in the spotlight? I just can't see it, sadly.

Great thinking behind this set, team. I am ecstatic to find all my concerns misplaced, whether too weak or too strong. So all change soon.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 03:58:51 PM by DeckBuilder »
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sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #421 on: October 14, 2013, 03:56:22 PM »
I think what Deck is saying is that due to these extremes each mage is going to have to seriously consider using  precious spell points to put these cards in their book just to compensate when they wouldn't have otherwise. Therefore lowing their normal strategy/attack. This is especially true in a tournament setting due to the 'what if' factor. I am quite happy about this though. This expansion is really going to add alot of variety and options to our existing game. If you can do that each expansion you guys are ahead of the curve, as alot of expansions just give more of the same. I'm quite curious what is in store for the future. BEST GAME EVER!

I see what you are saying, but isn't that the point of the game. I have to build a spellbook to enable me to defeat my opponent and his spellbook. How can you cheer and be excited about the awesomeness that is the DvN expansion and then complain that you have to change your spellbook to adapt vs. new mages. You don't have too, don't get the expansion and keep your current builds "good". I am not trying to be mean or aggressive here, I just don't get the dichotomy of loving the expansion and then complaining about the idea of having to adapt your spellbooks to the new mages in the expansion. It is implicit isn't it?
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HomelessJoe

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #422 on: October 14, 2013, 04:11:40 PM »
sIKE, you misunderstand, I was saying that I think the fact that each expansion throws the current metta on it's ear is such an amazing thing, and good for the overall longevity of the game. I in no way am complaining about that. At no part did I say that it was a bad thing. I did however start the message with "I think what Deck is saying is that due to..." and I could be wrong, but I don't think either of us were stating that the change and fact that you will have to conform to the new expansion defensively is a bad thing. I think that any and all changes as long as they remain balanced are good for the game. Mage Wars started out being on the more complicated side of games, expansions are only going to add to that. For the beginner player that may be fairly daunting, but for those who have engrossed ourselves in this experience, further decisions/complications/ stratagems/ defensive and offensive possibilities can only be a good thing. Hopefully that makes sense and you get my meaning now  :D

DeckBuilder

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #423 on: October 14, 2013, 04:15:32 PM »
ooops - ninja'd

How can you cheer and be excited about the awesomeness that is the DvN expansion and then complain that you have to change your spellbook to adapt vs. new mages. You don't have too, don't get the expansion and keep your current builds "good". I am not trying to be mean or aggressive here, I just don't get the dichotomy of loving the expansion and then complaining about the idea of having to adapt your spellbooks to the new mages in the expansion. It is implicit isn't it?

Erm. I've really been excited over this set. But also worried that the game is diversifying into "having the right tech" to defeat your match-up. In a game of "pick", this binary 0/1 aspect is far more visible than "well, I put in 8 sideboard cards and I saw none of them" which happens in Magic tournaments. The game's greatest strength makes this a delicate balance.

You test which other builds causes your build the most problems, then compromise your game plan (weakening yourself against builds you are not worried about) to add cards to defeat those builds that do cause you most trouble. This "testing against the gauntlet" is pretty standard in competitive play with customisable games.

However, the big difference with Mage Wars is "pick your card". Silver bullets can always be your next spell.

An example: in the days of pre-nerf Temple of Light, my Fire Wizard had Angel of Light and Lord of Fire as his only 2 creatures. Because I found one of them was always the perfect weapon with so many match-ups. The fact they were Legendary and could deny your opponent playing them (nobody expects the Wizard to open with them) was a bonus. With Armour augmented by Shield, the Vampiric Bear Strength flyer with Mongoose Agility and Nullify protection was the perfect precision weapon with multiple Battle Fury. It was a silly local meta choice (a single day round-robin knowing what opponents play) but illustrates the value of silver bullets in extreme.

I think what Joe was saying (or how I interpreted it) is in a tournament, "match-up variability" becomes greater as the card pool advances, adding more randomness to results. He obviously loves the game and compliments the expansion for adding so much. Just bemoans the fact that variety means more dilution of your own core idea to have those pickable silver bullets against an increasing number of mage builds. The game becomes more challenging which is good.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 05:15:14 PM by DeckBuilder »
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sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #424 on: October 14, 2013, 05:04:45 PM »
What the Necromancer Zombie build may do to the meta is stifle proactive strategies by spending points on reactive what-if solutions.
@Deck and @Joe

This was what stuck me and prompted my write up. The game as it grows will get more complex and evolve. If that doesn't fit to your style needs that is the great thing about the game, you don't have to grow with it. You can stay where you are at and continue to play, what is IMNSHO, the best game out there.

Expansions cause growing pains and will change both the local meta and the tourney meta. Look at Battle Fury. It was clarified in the FAQ for FvM to say that it caused two separate attacks and resulting melee bonus stacks. So from Core to FvM we get clarification on the cards and it mechanics. After CoK we see it get Nerfed badly with AW saying it was never the intent of the card to cause two attack actions (even though they clarified in the FAQ that it was exactly the intent). Growing pains. If your fears on the uber zombie come to fruition it will be nerfed....

Zombie Brute - I look and think the Necromancers Steel Claw. I know how to deal with it and really don't think that it is that much to fear unlike the obviously over powered Wizards Tower.

Speaking of the of the tourney meta, I find it fascinating (in the truest Spock voice in your head) that in the Battle of the Three Rivers tourney this weekend a Forcemaster and a Beastmaster came out on top. I would love to know what other types of mages were played and if all matches went to time and if any had to use the tie-breaker to determine the winner of the match.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 05:10:47 PM by sIKE »
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HomelessJoe

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #425 on: October 14, 2013, 05:08:52 PM »

I think what Joe was saying (or how I interpreted it) is in a tournament, "match-up variability" becomes greater as the card pool advances, adding more randomness to results. He obviously loves the game and compliments the expansion for adding so much. Just bemoans the fact that variety means more dilution of your own core idea to have those pickable silver bullets against an increasing number of mage builds. The game becomes more challenging which is good.

Well done. Exactly what I was hoping to convey. I'm sure it helps that I heard these words in a Charles Bronson like English accent. Everything sounds so much better in an English accent...

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #426 on: October 14, 2013, 06:36:51 PM »
The Priest's Malakai's Fire will be very handy here, throw in the Daze/Stun potential and +2 Nonliving of the Staff of Asyra plus Ring of Light and I would add in a Bear Strength (9 Die Stack + Burn) and he will take the brute down quicker than your average bear boo boo.

I thought that Psychic Immunity meant that Daze and Stun did not affect these creatures since these are Psychic Conditions. 
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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #427 on: October 14, 2013, 07:36:16 PM »
The Priest's Malakai's Fire will be very handy here, throw in the Daze/Stun potential and +2 Nonliving of the Staff of Asyra plus Ring of Light and I would add in a Bear Strength (9 Die Stack + Burn) and he will take the brute down quicker than your average bear boo boo.

I thought that Psychic Immunity meant that Daze and Stun did not affect these creatures since these are Psychic Conditions.

They are not psychic conditions. Sleep states: "This is a psychic condition" neither Daze or Stun indicate that they are psychic anywhere in the text, nor do they appear with the psychic symbol.

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #428 on: October 14, 2013, 07:39:38 PM »
In 'Land of the Dead' Zombies were Stunned/Dazed by fireworks...Solid evidence that it's possible. Boom, riddle answered, problem put to bed!!! NEXT

sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #429 on: October 14, 2013, 08:09:52 PM »
The Priest's Malakai's Fire will be very handy here, throw in the Daze/Stun potential and +2 Nonliving of the Staff of Asyra plus Ring of Light and I would add in a Bear Strength (9 Die Stack + Burn) and he will take the brute down quicker than your average bear boo boo.

I thought that Psychic Immunity meant that Daze and Stun did not affect these creatures since these are Psychic Conditions.

Psychic (Damage Type)
Invisible mental or telepathic effect or assault. Psychic spells and attacks can cause the Stun, Daze, or Sleep condition.

Daze
Creature is disoriented and/or blinded. Whenever this creature makes an attack, roll the effect die at the end of the Declare Attack Step. If the result is 7 or higher, the attack is resolved normally. If the result is 6 or less, the attack “misses” its target and skips to Step 5 of the attack sequence (Additional Strikes). If it makes a Zone Attack, only check once: the entire attack either fails or succeeds normally. If a creature has more than one Daze on it, roll only one time to see if the creature misses. In addition, the Dazed creature suffers a -2 penalty to all Defense rolls for each Daze marker it has. All Daze markers are removed at the end of the creature’s Action Phase. Daze has a removal cost of 2. Conjurations cannot be Dazed.

Stun
Creature is Incapacitated. All Stun markers are removed at the end of the creature’s Action Phase. Stun has a removal cost of 4. Cannot affect conjurations.

Sleep:
This is a Psychic condition. This creature is in a deep sleep and is Incapacitated. If this creature receives any damage, remove Sleep and replace it with a Daze marker (which is conveniently printed on the other side of the Sleep marker). Sleep has a removal cost equal to the sleeping creature’s Level.

The damage type here is Light damage so the way I read things and through the Codex several times carefully Stun or Daze are not necessarily a result of Psychic conditions but may be caused by a Psychic attack. Where as Sleep is defined as a Psychic condition. So the Daze/Stun potential of the Staff is not an effect of a Psychic attack but of a Light attack.
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sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #430 on: October 14, 2013, 11:16:54 PM »
Now this one scares me........the Growth markers can make this guy very very scary very quickly!
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HomelessJoe

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #431 on: October 14, 2013, 11:37:10 PM »
Ummmmm ;D

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #432 on: October 15, 2013, 12:32:29 AM »
At least it is not resilient

DeckBuilder

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #433 on: October 15, 2013, 02:17:49 AM »
It's recycling for the Skeleton build. Even then, I think I'll first cast the solid stats of a Skeleton Knight for the same cost, using the Ghoul to clean up when it dies. That loss of tempo giving up its attack to Grow is what puts me off (Kralathor and Shaggoth-Zura Grow without this tempo loss). I think the card is slightly "win more" and "win later". The object is to kill the enemy mage, not to have the biggest creature in the arena. If you are doing badly, you will not use the quick action to Grow when killing off that threat (who killed your skeleton) or guarding that conjuration or mage is more important.

It's no resilient Shaggoth-Zura (cost 8 zombie) who as a free action feeds on any near dead Slow reanimates from Ziggurat (that its killing conveniently reanimates where it stands, feeding Graveyard during lulls). Ghoul is not synergetic with zombies as it competes for corpses (in a meta filled with Devour like Jelly and Kralathor) hence is for other undead builds.

Skeleton builds will have one Ghoul as a "Cleaner", Zombies may have one as back-up to recycle corpses if ever Epic Ziggurat falls. But Mage Wars really does not have that many creature deaths (which is why Graveyard is not as good as it looks). Whilst this set promotes Swarm, a Few Big Elites will still be the majority of match-ups and this stifles the potential of cards like this. So its usefulness is reliant on opponent's build to some extent (can always recycle its own swarm but then it's frontline feeding instead of guarding or counter-attacking).

It's not shabby, it's nice they nodded to World War Z's super-fast zombie archetype and at the same time filled the corpse-eating Ghoul scavenger fantasy trope. But unlike the Brute with its 6 dice (with Idol) resilient 10 for cost 11 (Brute Pit: put 4 of them together, Teleport mage in with Transfusion nonsense, watch them follow the mage attacking it), I thankfully can't see much scope for abuse with this one.

Nope, I have to disagree, sIKE. This card is good "clean" fun but it does not worry me as much as the under-costed brutality of the Brute. Time will tell.

I have to add I'm very impressed by the green recycling sensibilities of the undead, so eco-friendly cleaning the arena of unsightly coprses (when they don't just get up and walk), they are well ahead of their time. The flavour text for the Ghoul should be "waste not, want not"...
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 07:55:32 AM by DeckBuilder »
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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #434 on: October 15, 2013, 09:04:48 AM »
I could see myself adding a couple of these ghouls to my warlock deck.  They would work pretty well with some darkfene bats... your enemy must focus the bats to avoid rot, so your ghouls are free to either eat bat corpses or attack (depending on position).