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Author Topic: Druid vs Necro Spoilers  (Read 497927 times)

sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #435 on: October 15, 2013, 10:27:12 AM »
@Deckbuilder

I agree with you on many of the reasons you state you prefer one card over the other.

To me though the Zombies are not "slow" they can only move one zone (without a Push, which at the most can be done once or twice around (familiars  don't count as they are not played much at all) a round so with a bit of skillful play I can avoid and with bloodthirsty can easily distract them. This guy with Fast can get around the board really fast with a base 4 dice attack with Piercing +1. Yes late game I might not want to give up that attack for the Growth marker but early and mid-game "Each Growth marker provides Melee +1 and Innate Life +3" is a no brainer even with a few mids/bigs strategy.

The Necro's guys are not going to be easily buffed, so what you get is what you get when they are cast. So Growth Markers will be a big part of the strategy when playing this guy and since the only requirement here is Corporeal Creature like Kralathor (Shaggoth is Friendly Zombie only) you are going to want to use Growth Marker when the opportunity presents to get the guys large and fearsome.

As I have said before the Transfusion / Pit play would be the result of your opponent playing badly and letting the opposing mage have 7-8 rounds with no pressure to set all of it up. 

I guess I am thinking less Zombie Builds or Skeleton builds but a Ghoul / Wraith build focus for my first custom Necro build.
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DeckBuilder

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #436 on: October 15, 2013, 12:32:48 PM »
I could see myself adding a couple of these ghouls to my warlock deck.  They would work pretty well with some darkfene bats... your enemy must focus the bats to avoid rot, so your ghouls are free to either eat bat corpses or attack (depending on position).

Nice. Damned if you do (kill the bats). Damned if you don't.

I confess I've never played bats (d12 phobia) but this is simple synergy. Great how DvN gives current unloved cards new life.
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HomelessJoe

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #437 on: October 15, 2013, 04:21:36 PM »
Again another fantastically thematic card. Reeks of dark magic!

For me this card is very situational. I'm still mulling it over whether this will even be in my book. Possibly leaning more towards yes for a skeleton based book. I don't know. First your opponet plays a huge part on his success, something i'm not generally a fan of. As mentioned in a normal game not too many creatures die. So initially Ravenous would normally be one or two squares away just waiting around for things to die in order to become better. You wouldn't want to really attack with it if anything was remotely close to dying, that's a problem for me. I'm not sure I get that. Why not just summon a better mob to begin with. This reminds me a lot of the veteran status for Warlord. I think all those who have played warlord can agree that it doesn't really play that well due to lack of multiple creature deaths. And they just get veteran after the kill, they don't have to use their action in order to get the promotion.  The shaggoth seems so much better. It gets to absorb zombies close to death for growth but would not be on the backfront waiting for them to get low. He would also be adding to offense. Definitely not the counter to the Druid's Kralathor who just gets the growth automatically. For that though i'm glad because I think this card would be way worse if it was just a mirror of Kralathor.
I don't know, i'm sure going up against a swarm Beastmaster build this thing could potentially become a real juggernaut, but for the overall game, or on a tournament level, i'm not so sure. Another we will have to wait and see...

If I get past the potential for growth and just see him as a regular creature he's fairly decent. The fast piercing +1 is nice. Would have liked him to be a zombie for synergy of course, but overall looking past growth hes ok.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 04:25:50 PM by HomelessJoe »

Qube

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #438 on: October 15, 2013, 05:39:07 PM »
The ghoul's feeding power is quite a bit more versatile than the warlord's veteran ability.  The later requires your   creature to kill an enemy, while the former works if anything dies on either side.  That difference means the ghoul is much less dependent on your opponent's strategy.

But, I agree that even if your ignore his special power, this ghouls is interesting.  Just being fast, nonliving and decently durable is pretty unique.  I could see a necro/warlock put on some early pressure with a couple of ghouls charging in backed up by pestilence.

Qube

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #439 on: October 15, 2013, 06:01:38 PM »
When the shaggoth eats a zombie, does it count as a kill, and give the graveyard mana?  Or does obliterate cancel that out?  If it does, then the ghoul certainly has more synergy with the graveyard... a creature dies, the graveyard get mana.. the ghoul gets a nice meal.. everyone is happy.

What about sacrificial altar, graveyard, ghoul.  Kill a creature with the altar, give another creature a bonus, ghoul eats the corpse, graveyard gets mana... necromancer cackles with evil glee.

And what about goblin bomber and ghoul?  Bomber attacks, explodes, and the ghoul slurps up the mess. ;D

sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #440 on: October 15, 2013, 06:32:55 PM »
Speaking of the Necro's Cleric
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sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #441 on: October 15, 2013, 06:45:59 PM »
I find all of the analysis of these cards very fascinating as we get to see what other players value. Slow and Resilient seem to be favored by many on this thread, and I see that as weaknesses that make's me not want to play them. The only Slow/Lumbering creature I truly fear is the Gorgon Archer, especially in pairs. On occasion the Iron Golems can be quite nasty, but Corrode should help balance that out. 

I wonder if our views are due to our local meta's? I do play a bit on OCTGN and have a good dozen games in with Charmyna so I do get to see a bit wider meta. My views are that with Fast + 4 Dice of Damage the Ghoul is better than Shaggoth-Zora. It will take 3 full actions to get him on the fearsome side and once again the Lumbering comes into play and to me the negatives out way the positives for blood thirsty. The same goes for the other Zombies. If you can get a swarm of them then the opposing mage could be in for a bit of trouble, but then Shaggoth-Zora could eat your own swarm.

Several other general observations, Skeletons do not get a Piercing -# buff which is surprising. I am very interested in the Necro's "Cleric" Acolyte of the Bog Queen and Altar of Skulls and the interaction there.
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wtcannonjr

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #442 on: October 15, 2013, 07:47:57 PM »
The Priest's Malakai's Fire will be very handy here, throw in the Daze/Stun potential and +2 Nonliving of the Staff of Asyra plus Ring of Light and I would add in a Bear Strength (9 Die Stack + Burn) and he will take the brute down quicker than your average bear boo boo.

I thought that Psychic Immunity meant that Daze and Stun did not affect these creatures since these are Psychic Conditions.

Psychic (Damage Type)
Invisible mental or telepathic effect or assault. Psychic spells and attacks can cause the Stun, Daze, or Sleep condition.

Daze
Creature is disoriented and/or blinded. Whenever this creature makes an attack, roll the effect die at the end of the Declare Attack Step. If the result is 7 or higher, the attack is resolved normally. If the result is 6 or less, the attack “misses” its target and skips to Step 5 of the attack sequence (Additional Strikes). If it makes a Zone Attack, only check once: the entire attack either fails or succeeds normally. If a creature has more than one Daze on it, roll only one time to see if the creature misses. In addition, the Dazed creature suffers a -2 penalty to all Defense rolls for each Daze marker it has. All Daze markers are removed at the end of the creature’s Action Phase. Daze has a removal cost of 2. Conjurations cannot be Dazed.

Stun
Creature is Incapacitated. All Stun markers are removed at the end of the creature’s Action Phase. Stun has a removal cost of 4. Cannot affect conjurations.

Sleep:
This is a Psychic condition. This creature is in a deep sleep and is Incapacitated. If this creature receives any damage, remove Sleep and replace it with a Daze marker (which is conveniently printed on the other side of the Sleep marker). Sleep has a removal cost equal to the sleeping creature’s Level.

The damage type here is Light damage so the way I read things and through the Codex several times carefully Stun or Daze are not necessarily a result of Psychic conditions but may be caused by a Psychic attack. Where as Sleep is defined as a Psychic condition. So the Daze/Stun potential of the Staff is not an effect of a Psychic attack but of a Light attack.

How about the section in the Codex about Immunity?

Immunity
This object is immune to all attacks, damage, conditions, and effects of the specified damage type, including critical damage and direct damage. Cannot be targeted or affected by spells of the specified type.

Since the codex identifies Psychic spells and attacks as causing Stun, Daze or Sleep conditions it seemed logical to conclude that the object is immune to these conditions under the Immunity clause no matter what the damage type of the condition. After all the statement does not require the condition to be delivered by the damage type - only that the condition is "...of the specified damage type,..." In other words a Daze from another type of attack still requires the object to have a mental attribute in order to 'feel' dazed. I viewed Psychic Immunity as an indicator this mental attribute did not exist for that object.

The other view is that immunity only exists if the specified damage type is causing that condition. The immunity statement seemed to cover the broader case above, but it could use clarification. Based on the definitions in the Codex it would seem that Sleep is the only defined Psychic condition at this point, but both Daze and Stun are potential conditions of Psychic damage, but not defined as a Psychic condition.

My mind is swirling ...
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baronzaltor

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #443 on: October 15, 2013, 07:52:55 PM »
Sleep is the only Psychic condition.  Daze and Stun are not in and of themselves Psychic and not prevented by Psychic Immunity.

HomelessJoe

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #444 on: October 15, 2013, 08:40:55 PM »
Seriously dude, if nonliving were immune to the whole gambit, in addition to being resilient they would be way too overpowered. I'm sure they considered your argument, because technically it makes sense on a thematic level, but I would guess that it was left on the cutting room floor so to speak for proper balancing. Anyway, that's my guess.

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #445 on: October 15, 2013, 08:45:54 PM »
How about the section in the Codex about Immunity?

Immunity
This object is immune to all attacks, damage, conditions, and effects of the specified damage type, including critical damage and direct damage. Cannot be targeted or affected by spells of the specified type.

Since the codex identifies Psychic spells and attacks as causing Stun, Daze or Sleep conditions it seemed logical to conclude that the object is immune to these conditions under the Immunity clause no matter what the damage type of the condition. After all the statement does not require the condition to be delivered by the damage type - only that the condition is "...of the specified damage type,..." In other words a Daze from another type of attack still requires the object to have a mental attribute in order to 'feel' dazed. I viewed Psychic Immunity as an indicator this mental attribute did not exist for that object.

The other view is that immunity only exists if the specified damage type is causing that condition. The immunity statement seemed to cover the broader case above, but it could use clarification. Based on the definitions in the Codex it would seem that Sleep is the only defined Psychic condition at this point, but both Daze and Stun are potential conditions of Psychic damage, but not defined as a Psychic condition.

My mind is swirling ...

This is faulty logic and has already been officially ruled on anyway. Just because a type of attack typically causes certain types of effects does not mean that those effects are automatically considered to be of that type. If they were, they would say that they were. What you are asserting here is essentially like saying: Hearts can beat hence all beats come from hearts, or swans have beaks therefore all beaks belong to swans. It simply isn't true.

DeckBuilder

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #446 on: October 15, 2013, 09:00:21 PM »
Slow and Resilient seem to be favored by many on this thread, and I see that as weaknesses that make's me not want to play them.

sIKE, you are debating the benefits of agility over strength, the boxer vs. the wrestler, the skirmisher vs. the heavy infantry.

The problem is there are so many ways to hobble the agile mage. For zombie-based Necromancer, 2 points buys you Enfeeble or Tanglevine. But when Necromancer opens 4 Brutes with Idol then Teleport opponent into them on turn 5, unlike Iron Golems, Brutes hinder escape, follow and attack. With hobbling like Tanglevine, opponent is soon zombie fodder. You mention "Slow" but Lumbering is nowhere near as debilitating as Slow. I grant you Minion's Lumbering and Pest is not good but Brutes can hinder, that's the key difference why I saw danger signs with them.

There is absolutely no finesse in what I propose. Not even a Transfusion free action burst. Just the power of 12 points on 4 Brutes, 16 points on 4 Teleport and 12 points on 6 Tanglevine to flush out your Teleports.

Unless they intend to nerf Teleport so that it can't target enemy mages (I support this), any concentrated creature mass of under-costed high damage/toughness creatures is a threat. Agility can never win against Teleport or Tanglevine. Only more Teleports can. With Slow creatures like Jelly, you have to Transfuse the Jinx Nullify Force Hold, at least it's got some cheesy combo finesse to it. But Lumbering Brutes don't even need that. They follow you and attack when you are not stuck in Tanglevine.

You were perfectly right that Pop-Up Sniper is a huge threat to zombies (and a good play against other books). But all the other solutiions are niche. We are supposed to believe they'll be added into books because they fear zombies? It's not a good sign for the meta when this happens.

I don't think the problem is Brutes. There will always be the next Stone Golem (hit hard in this expansion). The issue is Teleport assassination.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 09:06:53 PM by DeckBuilder »
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Kharhaz

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #447 on: October 15, 2013, 09:10:03 PM »

nerf Teleport so that it can't target enemy mages creatures (I support this)

I fixed that for you.

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sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #448 on: October 15, 2013, 09:29:30 PM »
Slow and Resilient seem to be favored by many on this thread, and I see that as weaknesses that make's me not want to play them.

sIKE, you are debating the benefits of agility over strength, the boxer vs. the wrestler, the skirmisher vs. the heavy infantry.

The problem is there are so many ways to hobble the agile mage. For zombie-based Necromancer, 2 points buys you Enfeeble or Tanglevine. But when Necromancer opens 4 Brutes with Idol then Teleport opponent into them on turn 5, unlike Iron Golems, Brutes hinder escape, follow and attack. With hobbling like Tanglevine, opponent is soon zombie fodder. You mention "Slow" but Lumbering is nowhere near as debilitating as Slow. I grant you Minion's Lumbering and Pest is not good but Brutes can hinder, that's the key difference why I saw danger signs with them.

There is absolutely no finesse in what I propose. Not even a Transfusion free action burst. Just the power of 12 points on 4 Brutes, 16 points on 4 Teleport and 12 points on 6 Tanglevine to flush out your Teleports.

Unless they intend to nerf Teleport so that it can't target enemy mages (I support this), any concentrated creature mass of under-costed high damage/toughness creatures is a threat. Agility can never win against Teleport or Tanglevine. Only more Teleports can. With Slow creatures like Jelly, you have to Transfuse the Jinx Nullify Force Hold, at least it's got some cheesy combo finesse to it. But Lumbering Brutes don't even need that. They follow you and attack when you are not stuck in Tanglevine.

You were perfectly right that Pop-Up Sniper is a huge threat to zombies (and a good play against other books). But all the other solutiions are niche. We are supposed to believe they'll be added into books because they fear zombies? It's not a good sign for the meta when this happens.

I don't think the problem is Brutes. There will always be the next Stone Golem (hit hard in this expansion). The issue is Teleport assassination.

We have gone around on this many times Deckbuilder. If I sit around and let you build this up pack and not disrupt your plans I deserve to loose. With the Ghoul I could pull a couple out and have then on you quickly before you are able to stage your pit trap. Same with the sniper I walk two over from my start corner and start shooting at your mage (not your Lumbering Zombies). Only those who turtle are in real danger of a Pit Trap setup that you describe. Same thing with Gate to Voltari, I like to camp my mage on top of it and summon my creatures in the same zone. The games I have played my opponents always attempt to disrupt my plans and in return I do the same to them :). We should get together on OCTGN sometime and duel.....
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sIKE

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Re: Druid vs Necro Spoilers
« Reply #449 on: October 16, 2013, 10:31:27 PM »
Next one is up, we have seen it already and is now officially previewed. Interesting, but not sure of what I think about it.
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