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Author Topic: Wizard Tower  (Read 31503 times)

jacksmack

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Wizard Tower
« on: September 04, 2013, 09:16:49 AM »
I have been very annoyed by the Wizard tower lately, and i suspect it will only be worse as more expansions gets released due to the versatility of the tower will increase substantially with new attack utility spells seeing the day.

Right now its incredible useful with:

Surging Wave - Very nice to get 10/12 chance of getting a slam on target and 42% of push.

Jetstream - incredibly strong vs flyers. Whenever Opponent has a Tower in NC there is basicly 2 zones flyers
can be in to avoid getting 4 dice + 11/12 chance of getting an additional 3 dice from wall bashing due to push.
(unless they remove themselves from combat and stand in 1 of the 2 safe corners).
And lets not forget Daze and the Wall push combos provided here.

Flameblast - remove potential block / reverse attack.

Geyser - taking away burn on self without spending an action from mage.


If you wanna do damage with the tower from ball or bolt then that is certainly an option as well, however... usually one is better off with casting the cheap utility spells and soon we can add Acid ball to pool.
Acid Ball is gonna be a strong combo with Jetstream for even more hardcore wall push combos due to less armor on target.
 - Hello mid / late game Wall of Thorns 10 dice push.

Lets look @ the tower.

1)
Costs 7 Mana.
Channeling 1.
Its a Quickcast Spell with a readymarker (and spellbind)
Can be cast 0-1 range away.

2)
Its not zone exclusive.

3)
Spellbind
Familiar
Free to bind new spell during prep phase
Its a lvl 2 spell

4)
Its Unique and not Epic
It has 7 HP and 3 Armor



  -  1  -
7 mana for the cheapest familiar and/or spawnpoint (extra action) in the game to the mage who has the most channeling and does everything the cheapest (Arcane Ring and/or Enchanters ring.)
So its gonna repay itself incredibly fast. Just after 3-4 rounds you have payed very little for this extra action / threat.
It can be cast 0-1 zones away, so its not even hard to put in one of the 2 NC zones. If it was 0-0 it would atleast put the wizard in some sort of threat when playing this.
And of course... its Quickcast.
Again its easy for the Wizard to play this spell, and on TOP of that... if he has 11 mana when casting this he can fire off a Jetstream immidiatly.
He doesnt even lose an action when playing this spell! Sure he is forced to use the action he gets on an attack spell... but lets face it... its not an attackspell. Its a utility spell or BOTH attack and utility.

I think it would be alot more balanced if it was Fullcast and / or 0-0 Range combined with a mana cost of 9-10 or 0 channeling. This sounds like a big nerf but im sure it would still be included in each and every (competetive) Wizard book.



  -  2  -
Its not zone exclusive... This right here is just a gamebreaker.
ATLEAST make it zone exclusive so i can plaster the NC up with conjurations he has to tear down first if he wishes to put in the best spots on the board.
I dont care too much about how much of the board is covered (1-2 zones range on most spells) - the problem here is that all non-NC zones provides Wall bash when pushed by Jetstream and Surging wave.



  -  3  -
Spellbind
Familiar
Free to bind new spell during prep phase
Its a lvl 2 spell

This is alot to put under the same category. But they are all linked.

Spellbind:
Spell is not discarded: Versatility - Spellbook making. You include very few attack spells and you get to cast them a ton of times.

Familiar:
You can change the spell every preparation phase plus it has channeling. Even more mana to spend for the most mana rich mage on top of the options a new spell gives.

No cost associated with changing the bind spell. Helm of Command (The most poor mage mana-wise) costs if you want to replace it. Thoughtspores CANNOT replace the spell. Wands pay etc.
No payment for being versatile choosing from a permanent pool of attack spells - He can spend his mana on other stuff. And i often see Wizards change spell every round or every second.
Put a 2 mana cost to this. Would the tower still be in each Wizard Spellbook? Yes it would.

Its a lvl 2 spell.
The mage with the biggest spellbook pays only 2 spellpoints to include this in his book.
Biggest spellbook because:
He has no opposing school - no tripple cost.
He Freely chooses the elemental school that fits his strategy the best.
He is specialized in Arcane and have cheap mandatory spells. Teleport, Dispell, Nullify, Jinx
This card should be level 4 or 5 and guess what... it would still be included in every spellbook.
Those 2-3 points just give the wizard 1 or 2 extra spells to add to the book - Even more spells to choose from.



  -  4  -
Its Unique and not Epic
It has 7 HP and 3 Armor

Taking down the tower is not even an option, because then you just see a second tower the round after.
The tower is so cheap to cast that it hardly matters for the Wizard. He is probaly happy that you choose to go for something that has 7 HP and 3 Armor... Because it would actually hurt the Wizard of you put that damage on him instead.
It should have been Epic so the momentum you lose by focusing down this building of horror by channeling mana and actions into tearing down the tower will not be completely wasted by a Quickcast for 7 mana the round after by the enemy who even gets the action spend returned in form of a Quickspell attack option.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 09:56:10 AM by jacksmack »

Wiz-Pig

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2013, 10:37:41 AM »
Yah, I think it's pretty clear that someone with a lot of influence was really overexcited about this card. When you compare what this thing does to how the Temple of Light nerf ended up you have to scratch your head.

sIKE

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2013, 10:47:05 AM »
You should of seen the combo of the two PN, ToL + Wizard Tower same zone, blasting away. Most games ran less than 10 rounds.
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Shad0w

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2013, 10:48:31 AM »
Yah, I think it's pretty clear that someone with a lot of influence was really overexcited about this card. When you compare what this thing does to how the Temple of Light nerf ended up you have to scratch your head.

I have no comment about that.  :(
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ringkichard

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2013, 12:52:39 PM »
The nerf seems to make the argument that the problem with ToL was strategic: that it could attack without mana cost. Wizard's Tower shows that the problem was probably tactical: creature quality actions but without loss of tempo.
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Moonglow

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2013, 05:29:26 PM »
Maybe people who want a shorter game should play with more of them :)

You should of seen the combo of the two PN, ToL + Wizard Tower same zone, blasting away. Most games ran less than 10 rounds.

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2013, 06:09:03 PM »
Why are there so many complaints about everything that you don't like/think is broken? Just because the card is good does not mean it's broken, nor that it should be nerfed.
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ringkichard

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2013, 06:34:35 PM »
Well, some of it is the old, "Rock is OP; Paper is fine! Love, Scissors."

But I gotta tell you that I've played a lot of different books and if I had to pick one right now to battle for the fate of the Earth, it would be Wizard splashing Nature and maybe Dark creatures. This in large part because of how good Wizard's Tower is.

Is it OP? I don't know. I don't really think any one person can reliably be the judge of that. But it is kinda telling that the two cards that have been eratta'd already are both ready marker conjurations, and now Wizard's Tower is starting the same conversation. My recommendation, if it's not too late, is to take a long last look at any ready marker conjurations in Druid v. Necro because they're probably the first thing Charmyna is going to try to break.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 09:08:58 PM by ringkichard »
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sIKE

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2013, 08:56:43 PM »
Why are there so many complaints about everything that you don't like/think is broken? Just because the card is good does not mean it's broken, nor that it should be nerfed.
I think you need to break you Octgn fast and try a half dozen games with Charmyna then come back and let us know what side of thing you are on. When you see what he does in game over and over again with ease, with all kinds of different mages, different books, different tactics, and different strategies that all fail, you might take a different view. The most challenging book for him to beat is another Wizard running....you guessed it, a Wizard Tower. I have seen the latest iteration (well I have been off for several days) of his book and it is of all things running a Water Wizard.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 08:58:57 AM by sIKE »
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jacksmack

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2013, 05:27:37 AM »
Why are there so many complaints about everything that you don't like/think is broken? Just because the card is good does not mean it's broken, nor that it should be nerfed.

I have spoken about 4 cards i think are broken.

ToL
Bim Shalla
Ballista
Wizard tower

ToL:
It got nerfed later on - not much to say here.

Bim Shalla:
It got nerfed later on - not much to say here.

Ballista:
Its still on promo stage. Others have reported similar concerns about this card not being Unique (atleast) because it gives so much burst damage having 1 or 2 of these along with a QC marker, a potential wizard tower and an action from a big creature. All this lands at once without your opponent has anything to say besides foresee the enemies action and put 1 enchantment down.

Wizard tower:
I have just posted a very long thread... Thank you very much dear mr play tester for your help on how i can counter the Wizard tower.
I wonder if you even took your time to read my OP.
I will try to implement your great suggestions the next time i play 4 vs AI big bad uber baws mage.


On a more serious note - maybe point out where im wrong in my assumptions about the wizard tower.
I personally believe that ToL was nerfed too much. But if you look at the current ToL and compare it to the wizard tower - how on earth can wizard tower be balanced?

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2013, 08:28:30 AM »
Every card has a weakness and can be taken down.  I agree just because a card is good doesn't mean it is broken, do we want a bunch of "not good" cards?  What it does provide in the game is a challenge.  Just like there are ways to deal with Temple builds (so didn't need to be nerfed), there are ways to deal with a Wizard Tower. 

Just toss some resources at it and blow it up, it dies like everything else.  What is the big deal with it?

Yep it has good armor but it doesn't have a ton of life, so piercing attacks are great.
A) melee swarm it, take it down.  If it is running single target spell it can only push/nuke one of you
B) range swarm it, take it down.  If it is running AE nuke spell then put archers and mage 1-2 zones away and shoot it down (again with piercing it only takes a couple hits, it doesn't have high life).

So if folks don't like the Wizard Tower in their arena destroy it!  It's good but not broken or unkillable by any means.

ringkichard

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2013, 08:36:39 AM »
Every card has a weakness and can be taken down.

When I read that, it sounds like you mean that no card could ever be too good. Is that really what you mean?
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sIKE

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2013, 09:04:55 AM »
But if you look at the current ToL and compare it to the wizard tower - how on earth can wizard tower be balanced?
Quite the truth! It is blatantly over powered, the OP nails down exactly why this is. I would like to see Padawan and Shadow (or another lay tester) play test the Earth Wizard build that Charmyna posted multiple times and work the meta up to beat it, and post that build here on the forums.....
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ringkichard

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2013, 09:19:36 AM »
Let's not make Charmyna into the Dark Destroyer here. Charmyna's a very good player and an even better spellbook designer (better than I at both) but not the grand champion who can never be defeated.

And more to the point, I don't know if Charmyna has made any statements suggesting that Wizard's Tower needs to be nerfed. Lets not put words in Charmyna's mouth.

And even more to the point, I do think that a lot of the negative reaction to Wizard's Tower is because it's flashy. It gets a lot of attention playing attack spells that are tactically really strong, but cost a lot of manna somewhat inefficiently. But when you lose to Wizard's Tower you know it: your stuff got slammed, dazed, pushed, set on fire, and crushed to death.

Battleforge, which I have never heard anyone call to be nerfed, is very nearly as powerful. It's just much quieter, and far more long term strategic. You have to be paying pretty close attention to know that a Battleforge killed you.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 09:23:01 AM by ringkichard »
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Stormmaster

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2013, 09:22:31 AM »
Every card has a weakness and can be taken down.

When I read that, it sounds like you mean that no card could ever be too good. Is that really what you mean?

That is pretty close to what I mean yes. 

Every "too good" card I've seen just adds challenge to the game.  It makes me think of ways to take it down, which makes the game a challenge.  There is always a way, it might just be harder or more difficult.  Who wants it too easy?  That is boring.  More powerful the better bring it on. Gives a challenge.

I suppose there is an outer threshold to the argument that indeed there might possibly be something so out of balance that it is just unkillable there is NO way to win a game when that card hits the table, but I have yet to see that card exist.