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Author Topic: Wizard Tower  (Read 31497 times)

Stormmaster

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2013, 04:48:06 PM »
I've only fought against the Wizard Tower a couple times but I just ranged it down each time.  It can only hit one target generally so if you hit it with 3 targets it falls down in a couple turns.  I just try to use a bow with piercing and ranged attacks with piercing (due to its armor).  Since it has such a low life total it isn't too powerful or strong.

I could see how the tower would be rough if folks play one or two big creatures, but Wizard Tower can fall to any mini swarm strategy and it only stays on the board a couple turns so it is rough but can't cause too much damage.

I suppose properly defended esp with intercept guards it might stand up to ranged piercing attacks but ways around that turtle too.

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2013, 09:08:08 PM »
I think being borderline OP could still a problem, because it means you have to be that much more careful with adding new cards to the game that can combo with it. If it's borderline OP, maybe choosing the right subtle nerf might be enough to stabilize its balance in the long run?

Of course, I'm not a playtester, so I wouldn't really know...
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Charmyna

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2013, 09:40:09 AM »
I've beaten Charmyna twice now. I haven't played a serious book against his wizard, but it is beatable.

If I remember correctly, you beat my warlock twice. The wizard is still unbeaten. Not saying its unbeatable - just didnt happen yet ;).

Great thread about the wiz tower! It is an awesome card and I wouldnt be surprised if its nerfed soon. The attack spells you mentioned add great utility to the damage (surging wave, jet stream, geyser), which allows the wizard to often save actions. And as you pointed out with acid ball from the new expansion the wiz tower will be even more useful. For now I cant say if the tower is OP or not, but if i compare it to mana crystal I find it surprising that the crystal only costs 2 mana more and is much tougher and allows for so many combos. Maybe the designers thought that the tower is balanced because you cant decide what to spend the mana on. But, with so many utility attack spells that isnt really an issue.
In the end, I guess we have to wait and see how the meta after the release of the expansion evolves before we can say whether or not it needs to be nerfed.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 10:02:03 AM by Charmyna »

Fentum

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2013, 10:35:04 AM »
I've beaten Charmyna twice now. I haven't played a serious book against his wizard, but it is beatable.

If I remember correctly, you beat my warlock twice. The wizard is still unbeaten. Not saying its unbeatable - just didnt happen yet ;).

Great thread about the wiz tower! It is an awesome card and I wouldnt be surprised if its nerfed soon. The attack spells you mentioned add great utility to the damage (surging wave, jet stream, geyser), which allows the wizard to often save actions. And as you pointed out with acid ball from the new expansion the wiz tower will be even more useful. For now I cant say if the tower is OP or not, but if i compare it to mana crystal I find it surprising that the crystal only costs 2 mana more and is much tougher and allows for so many combos. Maybe the designers thought that the tower is balanced because you cant decide what to spend the mana on. But, with so many utility attack spells that isnt really an issue.
In the end, I guess we have to wait and see how the meta after the release of the expansion evolves before we can say whether or not it needs to be nerfed.

It's not the tower, it's the action marker chaining mechanic that is a worry.

Charmyna

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2013, 11:30:11 AM »
I've beaten Charmyna twice now. I haven't played a serious book against his wizard, but it is beatable.

If I remember correctly, you beat my warlock twice. The wizard is still unbeaten. Not saying its unbeatable - just didnt happen yet ;).

Great thread about the wiz tower! It is an awesome card and I wouldnt be surprised if its nerfed soon. The attack spells you mentioned add great utility to the damage (surging wave, jet stream, geyser), which allows the wizard to often save actions. And as you pointed out with acid ball from the new expansion the wiz tower will be even more useful. For now I cant say if the tower is OP or not, but if i compare it to mana crystal I find it surprising that the crystal only costs 2 mana more and is much tougher and allows for so many combos. Maybe the designers thought that the tower is balanced because you cant decide what to spend the mana on. But, with so many utility attack spells that isnt really an issue.
In the end, I guess we have to wait and see how the meta after the release of the expansion evolves before we can say whether or not it needs to be nerfed.

It's not the tower, it's the action marker chaining mechanic that is a worry.

Well, I think its both. Even without ready marker mechanic the wizard tower would allow the wizard to save actions often. The ready marker mechanic makes it alot worse for the opponent though. Still, im not sure if it would be enough to change the ready marker into an action marker in order to balance the tower. Anyway, that would bring other problems (the total number of action markers is often important for tactical play and a relatively cheap but tough conjuration with an action marker might be problematic).

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2013, 11:40:42 AM »
Yes, I didn't say I beat your wiz, only that it is beatable ^.^
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Fentum

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2013, 12:43:36 PM »
I've beaten Charmyna twice now. I haven't played a serious book against his wizard, but it is beatable.

If I remember correctly, you beat my warlock twice. The wizard is still unbeaten. Not saying its unbeatable - just didnt happen yet ;).

Great thread about the wiz tower! It is an awesome card and I wouldnt be surprised if its nerfed soon. The attack spells you mentioned add great utility to the damage (surging wave, jet stream, geyser), which allows the wizard to often save actions. And as you pointed out with acid ball from the new expansion the wiz tower will be even more useful. For now I cant say if the tower is OP or not, but if i compare it to mana crystal I find it surprising that the crystal only costs 2 mana more and is much tougher and allows for so many combos. Maybe the designers thought that the tower is balanced because you cant decide what to spend the mana on. But, with so many utility attack spells that isnt really an issue.
In the end, I guess we have to wait and see how the meta after the release of the expansion evolves before we can say whether or not it needs to be nerfed.

It's not the tower, it's the action marker chaining mechanic that is a worry.

Well, I think its both. Even without ready marker mechanic the wizard tower would allow the wizard to save actions often. The ready marker mechanic makes it alot worse for the opponent though. Still, im not sure if it would be enough to change the ready marker into an action marker in order to balance the tower. Anyway, that would bring other problems (the total number of action markers is often important for tactical play and a relatively cheap but tough conjuration with an action marker might be problematic).

Agreed. I quite like the proposal of allowing only a single ready marker to be flipped such that chains become shorter.

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2013, 03:20:51 PM »
I know that sounds like a nerf, and it'll help some with Ballista, but I don't know if it would hurt Wizard's Tower much at all. If I quick cast, then action, then ready marker, I'm still playing solitaire. Wizard's Tower's sweet spot is with Battle Forge and Hand of Bim-Shalla, and the hand doesn't need to be part of the combo, usually.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 03:23:07 PM by ringkichard »
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Fentum

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2013, 05:09:24 PM »
I know that sounds like a nerf, and it'll help some with Ballista, but I don't know if it would hurt Wizard's Tower much at all. If I quick cast, then action, then ready marker, I'm still playing solitaire. Wizard's Tower's sweet spot is with Battle Forge and Hand of Bim-Shalla, and the hand doesn't need to be part of the combo, usually.

Yup, I agree. I just worry about future ready action cards adding more opportunities for chained mayhem.

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2013, 05:21:48 PM »
I think what would actually help a lot is less synergistic X mage only ready action marker conjurations. That way people can still have the fun of the ready action marker, but they have to kind of build around it more. A good example of this is Battle Forge actually. You kind of have to build your deck specifically for battle forge. Sure I can throw just any equipment IK want to, but in order to justify the 2-5 points it takes, I'm going to have to invest at least part of my spellbook to it. Although it's not a ready marker conjuration, it still does net you those powerful free actions, and they are pretty cheap, too.
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jacksmack

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2013, 12:42:41 PM »
Tbh im not sure Charms water wizard build is beatable. It doesn't worry me much for now, because we got (imo) the biggest meta game changer expansion on the steps - though CoK did a very good job on this as well!

I might be beatable by a deck that is build specifically to destroy just this particular turtle strat.
But part of  building a spellbook is to make it playable (as decent / good chance to win) vs different strats.
So if I come up with 1 book with specific opening the first 5 rounds that lands the hammer round 6 and focus all or almost all 120 spellbook points into that - then im going to lose every time vs BM rush, warlock cursing etc etc.

I have tried - because I enjoy the challenge - to come up with different openings vs the Gate turtle opening.
Non have succeded so far. Those that came close destroyed the harmonized gate in round 4 without using attack spells. (no promos were used either - I would assume double ballista could be strong vs spawnpoints)
Still I was too far behind action wise, and ended up taking too much damage from a couple of blue gremlins and even with gate destroyed and the wizard losing 18 mana invsted, he had probably gotten 10-12 back mana on it before its destroyed so effectively he lost maybe 6-8 mana. And because I spend the same amount of mana (cheetah speed and shift enchantment / transfusion) and ALOT more than his 1 action I was too far behind.

And you can do some pretty sexy openings vs a spawnpoint cast 1 zone away from start zone.

Anyway... the wizard tower has a big say in this, because it can geyser burn or slam / push me depending on whats needed.

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2013, 04:50:47 PM »
Yes but it's always cast near his starting zone. He uses it specifically for turtling and punishing the player that tries to go the wrong way about being aggressive.
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sIKE

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2013, 04:55:51 PM »
I don't know about the games that everyone else has played but he depending upon how aggressive or slow I play put the tower in either his on my NC. With this done he basically has board control expect for the opposite corners from the tower. This plus the free action, plus the free changing out of spells, plus the mana generation makes it OP.
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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2013, 10:01:01 PM »
And you break your promise again. Tsk tsk.


I have yet to have anyone give, in concrete, indisputable fact that WT is OP. Good cards aren't always OP, and not every card has to suck to be balanced. What makes the Wizard so good (not the WT, btw) is the Voltaric shield, coupled with even a couple of points of armor. This, in conjunction with the birth of spells the Wizard is trained in, as well as the inherent attack spell that he can cast, makes him extremely powerful. This does not mean that the WT alone is OP, nor does the free action, nor the changing of spells, nor the mana generation. Correlation: The Wizard is too powerful. Let's nerf another card we don't like. Out of the games I have played with your fabled "Dark Destroyer" none of them has been affected by WT. It was shot once. And it pushed and slammed a creature. Any other time he just used it to attack with himself, WT, and then QC inherent zap. There are a few things about the Wizard I do not like, and do not see being good for the game, but no, the Wizard's Tower is not OP.

Now, unlike sikE, I have nothing more to say on the matter.   
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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2013, 10:40:47 PM »
Well, now Charmyna has to add "Dark Destroyer" to the caption below the forum avatar.
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