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Author Topic: Wizard Tower  (Read 31496 times)

ringkichard

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2013, 10:42:23 PM »
Also, can we disable that damned emoticon?
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sIKE

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2013, 08:36:30 AM »
And you break your promise again. Tsk tsk.
Sometimes passion rules!

I have yet to have anyone give, in concrete, indisputable fact that WT is OP.
People can get sentenced to death with less, beyond a reasonable doubt this card is over powered.

Good cards aren't always OP, and not every card has to suck to be balanced. What makes the Wizard so good (not the WT, btw) is the Voltaric shield, coupled with even a couple of points of armor. This, in conjunction with the birth of spells the Wizard is trained in, as well as the inherent attack spell that he can cast, makes him extremely powerful.
So what you are saying that the 5 mana cost Wand, that costs a Quick Action to change out a spell plus a bit of mana and can be dissolved for a mere 5 mana and a single QC is the card that sucks here not that the WT is OP? As far I can tell everything you described above is exactly why it is overpowered. It knocks the game out of balance in a manner very much like the ToL + HoB pre-nerf was and look how awfully bad that combo was nerfed.

Now, unlike sIKE, I have nothing more to say on the matter.
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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2013, 09:39:15 AM »
Good cards aren't always OP, and not every card has to suck to be balanced. What makes the Wizard so good (not the WT, btw) is the Voltaric shield, coupled with even a couple of points of armor. This, in conjunction with the birth of spells the Wizard is trained in, as well as the inherent attack spell that he can cast, makes him extremely powerful.
So what you are saying that the 5 mana cost Wand, that costs a Quick Action to change out a spell plus a bit of mana and can be dissolved for a mere 5 mana and a single QC is the card that sucks here not that the WT is OP? As far I can tell everything you described above is exactly why it is overpowered. It knocks the game out of balance in a manner very much like the ToL + HoB pre-nerf was and look how awfully bad that combo was nerfed.

Lol, yes clearly it is every other comparable card in the game that is underpowered. Also I find it really cute that any time we have a card that is disruptive to the balance of the game the defenders start crowing about how it is "beatable" and thus not over powered. When was this established as the standard?

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2013, 11:02:01 AM »
@The Dude, (and anyone else who cares)

We all know that a card being good by itself doesn't automatically make it OP. Nobody believes that, nobody is arguing it, and anyone who said that probably would not be taken seriously.

However, the power level of a card does not exist in a vacuum, and it is influenced by how it interacts with other cards. There's a reason we use the word "balanced" to refer to a healthy metagame. Not all cards are equally powered, and they're not supposed to be.

I think how you define "overpowered", depends on what the game is supposed to be like. For a customizable strategy game like Mage Wars, you want players to have freedom to customize their competitive strategies how they want to, resulting in greater strategic/playstyle diversity, which makes the game more interesting. A card that makes a particular strategic playstyle (or in this case a specific mage) more competitive then the others is unbalanced.

In some games there are "tiers" where  builds of different power levels are more or less competitive. In those games, unbalance would not automatically equate with a damaged or broken metagame. However, at least for now, Mage Wars is not one of those games.

You think Arcane Zap is overpowered? Seriously? Did you actually think about that before you said it? There are a lot of weak creatures with 3 dice melee attacks that they don't need mana to use, and some more powerful creatures with far more powerful attacks than Arcane Zap that they can use for no cost other than the mana it took to summon them. And let's not forget that all mages are Lv 6 creatures. Sure, they get onto the field at the start of the game for no cost, so one could argue that the mages are overpowered. But considering that they are SUPPOSED to be the centerpieces of the game from which the resources for all strategies originate, that's hardly a problem.

But if the Wizard himself was "overpowered" and more competitive than any of the other mages, the playtesters would have noticed that long before now.

Considering all the great strategy articles you've written, I'm shocked by the nonsense you're spouting. Perhaps you should calm down a bit and look at this matter later with a clearer head.

Ultimately, I think whether Wizard's tower is OP or not is for the playtesters to determine and not anyone else. We should trust them to do their jobs, rather than sitting here fighting about it. I personally think that because people fought too much the last time with HoB and all those other spells that were nerfed, some of them were nerfed more than they needed to be. We should trust the playtesters to figure this sort of thing out, rather than pressuring our own views onto each other and them. So lets just stop fighting, continue to enjoy ourselves, and wait.
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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2013, 11:53:08 AM »
So looking at the discussion rationally what is the (non subjective) definition of something "Overpowered".  What conditions (since they are not absolutes or in a vacumm) can objectively determine that? 
What do the playtesters use when they are seeing if something is out of balance or not?

Combination of factors, but is it on a sliding scale?  Is it the potential interactions with other cards?  Various synergies and combos that are presented?

If it is a sliding scale what is the range?
Like how do you evaluate: mana cost vs spell book cost vs armor, hp, damage, effects etc etc to see if something is too good or too low?

Note: I'm totally not taking any side or even commenting on anyone elses views.  Just interested in this discussion and trying to step back from it and look at it from all angles, since this is undoubtably going to come up again and again with DvN coming out.  I KNOW someone's going to say something is OP, but I don't want the playtesters or the game developers to be afraid to make "good" cards because of it.  I'd rather have cards that range in "goodness", they don't all have to be perfectly balanced to make the game fun and interesting.  I also am not a fan of errata/nerfing or changing a card AFTER it is in print.  There are other options, such as new cards that bring things back in balance if something does get out of balance.

Shad0w

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2013, 12:27:27 PM »
Some things may appear to be op or close to till you see the feb / march set then the choices should be more clear
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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2013, 05:07:01 PM »
I would like to see where I said Arcane Zap was OP please.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2013, 08:10:24 PM »
"Good cards aren't always OP, and not every card has to suck to be balanced. What makes the Wizard so good (not the WT, btw) is the Voltaric shield, coupled with even a couple of points of armor. This, in conjunction with the birth of spells the Wizard is trained in, as well as the inherent attack spell that he can cast, makes him extremely powerful."


Oh. I think I might have misread it. You said voltaric shield, not arcane zap. Oops, my bad!

I can almost see what you mean about voltaric shield being overpowered. For only 2 mana per use, it functions much like 3 armor that also works on critical damage. However, there are two things to keep in mind that lower the power of Voltaric shield.

First of all, there's the fact that it only works against the first attack he receives during the round. Second of all, unlike Block, which prevents ALL damage from the attack for a a reveal cost of 2 (total mana cost of 4), Voltaric shield only prevents up to three damage, and you can only cast it during the upkeep, which means you have to predict whether there's a chance of taking an attack during this round that you don't want.

The fact that Voltaric shield is reusable every round as long as you have at least 2 mana doesn't seem like such a huge obstacle. There are multiple more powerful abilities that after paying their cards' mana costs, you don't have to pay mana whenever you flip the ready marker. Such as certain defenses.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 08:34:17 PM by Imaginator »
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ringkichard

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2013, 09:31:17 PM »
OK, new poll: in the current metagame, what's the most Mana you'd pay for Wizard's Tower? Also what is the least cost you think would be fair?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 09:35:03 PM by ringkichard »
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Charmyna

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2013, 04:27:18 AM »
In my experience voltaric shield is the reason why wizards are the most powerful of all mages. Builds who focus on attacking the wizard early have no chance at all, because 2-4 armor+voltaric shield+regrowth let him survive everything in the current meta. Curses could be a threat, but as a wizard dispel/nullify/mage wand are so cheap that curses are no matter as well (I had enough games against good warlocks).
Sure, the voltaric shield is gone after the first attack that deals damage, but with some armor on you, low dice attacks have a realistic chance to not deal any damage at all. In the worst case, the shield absorbs 1 damage, which still is important in a damage race and 2 mana for 1 hp isnt that bad if u consider that you did not use an action for it! Anyway, with my build I have enough creatures to focus down the sources of low dice attacks quickly. Therefore, the opponent is only left with high dice rolls, against which the voltaric shield is just awesome. I had so many games in which a hurl boulder did 0 damage because my wizard had 4+ armor and all crits were absorbed by voltaric shield.
@Zap: Its not nearly as great as voltaric shield, but still very useful and I think everyone who played the wizard knows it. No need to explain further.
IMO these two innates are the strongest abilities from all mages except the Forcemaster. Deflect can be better or worse than voltaric shield, depending on situation. The same applies for force pull and zap. What makes the wizard so incredibly powerful that I never lost with him for many games, is the combination of awesome innates, arcane school, an elemental school of choice and no opposing school! Arcane school has cheap access to most of the mandatory spells and in addition the wizard tower, a great spawnpoint and some really nice creatures (hydra, gremlin, gorgon archer, gargoyle). Sure, nature has better creatures and better enchantments; dark has nice creatures as well and awesome curses. But still, many good players consider arcane school as the strongest.
So what else does wizard have? Oh yes, an elemental school of his choice. Cheap golems+hurl boulder. Or cheap fireballs etc. With the current meta, even water works great because dissolve, surging wave and geyser are awesome spells in the right situation (with the expansion I guess water will become the strongest wizard).
Last but not least, the wizard has no opposing school.
All these strength add up and make the wizard the most powerful mage of all currently available. Actually, I would go so far and say that an elaborated wizard build has a chance to win of over 80% against the overwhelming majority of non-wizard builds (maybe even all non-wizard builds). There might be some specialised builds that can scratch the 50% win chance mark against an elaborated wizard build. But, those builds will be so specialiced that they have no real chance to win against most other builds.
In the end, im really curious about the new mages. They might re-establish the rock-paper-scissors environment that is needed for a healthy game.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 04:36:13 AM by Charmyna »

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2013, 05:11:37 AM »
I have yet to have anyone give, in concrete, indisputable fact that WT is OP.

@ D00D
WT is great for other than a Gate wizard. In fact its great for any wizard.
OP lists all the good things about the tower.
I cannot tell you WT is OP because it costs only 3 mana to play. Or that its OP because it has 5 channeling and 35 HP
This is obviously not the case, its a combination of all the good aspects of this tower that makes it so strong.
In particular:
Non zone excluse
Non legendary
Another Ready marker
Free (actionwise AND mana wise) change of spells. (wands dont grant this)
Decent HP / armor


I was not the one turning this discussion to how the wizard tower operates within Charmynas turtle gate strat.
In regards to this, i can just say that the wizard tower covers the only weakness the wizard has when opening with Harmonized Gate and following up with 2 crystals and Arcane ring - which imo is a pretty hefty build up.
Rush - Its no longer (as) weak to the 1 big 1 medium or 2 big opening and with WT the wizard manages to outlast the early damage till gate has produced enough critters to take down the enemy.
I realize voltaric shield has a great say in this, but WT was the last card to come to this build (with surging wave.)

You seem to be quite arrogant like someone insulted you personally?! I have the right to express my feelings about any card i wish to.
I am a huge fan of this game, but i am not going to ignore what i see could be potential issues long term like a blind fanboi.
I believe that, Supporting any product without the slighest sense of criticism is franktly not doing any good for that product long term.

Could you enlighten the mob with your infinite wisdom on how to handle the Wizard Tower?

Kharhaz

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2013, 05:14:06 AM »
In my experience voltaric shield is the reason why wizards are the most powerful of all mages. Builds who focus on attacking the wizard early have no chance at all, because 2-4 armor+voltaric shield+regrowth let him survive everything in the current meta. Curses could be a threat, but as a wizard dispel/nullify/mage wand are so cheap that curses are no matter as well (I had enough games against good warlocks).
Sure, the voltaric shield is gone after the first attack that deals damage, but with some armor on you, low dice attacks have a realistic chance to not deal any damage at all. In the worst case, the shield absorbs 1 damage, which still is important in a damage race and 2 mana for 1 hp isnt that bad if u consider that you did not use an action for it! Anyway, with my build I have enough creatures to focus down the sources of low dice attacks quickly. Therefore, the opponent is only left with high dice rolls, against which the voltaric shield is just awesome. I had so many games in which a hurl boulder did 0 damage because my wizard had 4+ armor and all crits were absorbed by voltaric shield.
@Zap: Its not nearly as great as voltaric shield, but still very useful and I think everyone who played the wizard knows it. No need to explain further.
IMO these two innates are the strongest abilities from all mages except the Forcemaster. Deflect can be better or worse than voltaric shield, depending on situation. The same applies for force pull and zap. What makes the wizard so incredibly powerful that I never lost with him for many games, is the combination of awesome innates, arcane school, an elemental school of choice and no opposing school! Arcane school has cheap access to most of the mandatory spells and in addition the wizard tower, a great spawnpoint and some really nice creatures (hydra, gremlin, gorgon archer, gargoyle). Sure, nature has better creatures and better enchantments; dark has nice creatures as well and awesome curses. But still, many good players consider arcane school as the strongest.
So what else does wizard have? Oh yes, an elemental school of his choice. Cheap golems+hurl boulder. Or cheap fireballs etc. With the current meta, even water works great because dissolve, surging wave and geyser are awesome spells in the right situation (with the expansion I guess water will become the strongest wizard).
Last but not least, the wizard has no opposing school.
All these strength add up and make the wizard the most powerful mage of all currently available. Actually, I would go so far and say that an elaborated wizard build has a chance to win of over 80% against the overwhelming majority of non-wizard builds (maybe even all non-wizard builds). There might be some specialised builds that can scratch the 50% win chance mark against an elaborated wizard build. But, those builds will be so specialiced that they have no real chance to win against most other builds.
In the end, im really curious about the new mages. They might re-establish the rock-paper-scissors environment that is needed for a healthy game.

This is a fantastic post!

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2013, 07:13:20 AM »
Ok, I suppose I stand corrected about voltaric shield, and possibly the wizard too. However, I still think that instead of having a long argument, it would be better to just report the problem (or what we think is a problem) and have the playtesters investigate it.

Also, I don't think Rock-Paper-Scissors is necessary for a healthy metagame. In fact, I think Rock-Paper-Scissors means a lot less strategy in game, and more strategy out of game creating your build. That's not fun. One mage being overpowered isn't evidence for the superiority of rock-paper-scissors.

Also, while nobody really likes banning and errata, I think that just creating cards to counter the overpowered cards will throw the game out of whack too by making things rock-paper-scissors. If a card is overpowered, and then you put some cards in the cardpool to counter that OP card, then everyone will essentially HAVE TO include one of the counters, wasting resources in the game to deal with a version of a card that shouldn't be there anyways because it was a mistake. I think admitting one's mistakes and fixing them is a far better solution than trying to cover it up and make the mistake look better. Nobody's perfect, and customizable strategy games are a big balancing act. If broken cards slip through the cracks, no big deal, just fix them. While it's ideal to be able to do that before the cards are printed, there are only so many playtesters, and there are a lot more players. The playtesters can't predict every single strategy that players come up with. It's called customizable for a reason after all.
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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2013, 07:26:33 AM »
This is a fantastic post!

Thx :).

However, I still think that instead of having a long argument, it would be better to just report the problem (or what we think is a problem) and have the playtesters investigate it.

You keep saying we should let the playtesters do their jobs. The problem here is that mage wars has way too many cards to test them all in every possible situation (actually you would need to test them several times in the same situation because of different dice rolls). Therefore, i guess it is helpful if we support the playtesters with our findings.

Also, I don't think Rock-Paper-Scissors is necessary for a healthy metagame. In fact, I think Rock-Paper-Scissors means a lot less strategy in game, and more strategy out of game creating your build. That's not fun. One mage being overpowered isn't evidence for the superiority of rock-paper-scissors.

I didnt mean a 100% Rock-Paper-Scissors environment. I just think something like the following would be a healthy metagame: Mage A has a win chance of over 50% against Mage B. Mage B has over 50% win chance against Mage C. Mage C has over 50% win chance against Mage A. The win chances should vary with specific build, strategy and mostly player experience, but it should not be like one Mage dominates all others (in the sense that he has over 50% win chance against all). Currently a well played wizard dominates all other mages (and im not talking of win chances slightly above 50%)!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 07:35:36 AM by Charmyna »

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #59 on: September 12, 2013, 12:31:13 AM »
 - "Hello mid / late game Wall of Thorns 10 dice push."

Put a wall up with the passage block trait in front of their wall- You would take slam damage but hey.
You could also get that wall gone rather quickly....or just move away from it.

And Acid ball will be a duel edged gain for the tower- When used against the tower (Especially in conjunction with Spitting raptor) that tower is going to become a 7 life no armor pile of rubble. (Not to mention that you will be getting damage on the tower with the attacks that cause the corrode)

Not to mention there are plenty of cards that havent been spoiled yet- so to factor in Acid ball to the overall power of the WT is jumping the gun a little. (IMO) good points though all around.


« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 06:18:05 AM by DarthDadaD20 »
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