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Author Topic: Wizard Tower  (Read 30531 times)

Fentum

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2013, 12:01:04 PM »
Depends on LOS. I have seen WT have almost 0 effect on a match before or be completely controlling.

That's strange. I have had that very experience with almost every card!

Which is a GOOD thing in my book.

Makes things far from boring.

Shad0w

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #76 on: October 23, 2013, 02:03:01 PM »
Depends on LOS. I have seen WT have almost 0 effect on a match before or be completely controlling.

That's strange. I have had that very experience with almost every card!

Which is a GOOD thing in my book.

Makes things far from boring.

A well placed wall can do wonders against WT
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Qube

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #77 on: October 24, 2013, 11:50:21 AM »
Being immobile is not a setback for Wizard Tower when with attack spell it covers the whole arena except 2 corners when it is in the middle.

Are you being serious?  Think about the current tower, then consider a tower that can move.  The moving tower is clearly better.  Sure, you can place your tower in the center squares, but that makes it more vulnerable.

sIKE

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #78 on: October 24, 2013, 01:41:04 PM »
Being immobile is not a setback for Wizard Tower when with attack spell it covers the whole arena except 2 corners when it is in the middle.

Are you being serious?  Think about the current tower, then consider a tower that can move.  The moving tower is clearly better.  Sure, you can place your tower in the center squares, but that makes it more vulnerable.
Mobile would make a massively overpowered card break the game even more. I would house rule this mobile card out, as it stands, I am very tempted to house rule out the WT as it is currently written. If for one minute you think placing that card NC "makes" it vulnerable enough for it to be costed as is, I have a UberFireBall (promo) that increases its damage die by +1 per zone, up to four zones away and starts with 4 attack dice. Only level 1 Fire/1 Arcane of course, wouldn't want to screw the wizard too hard. And close! Now back in reality the Wizard Tower is very poorly costed and should be nerfed, it is way out of balance and breaks the current game. I will play with Acid Ball a bit after DvN is released to see if it is a bit more balanced...

(Hope the sarcasm comes over as playful not mean spirited)
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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #79 on: October 24, 2013, 02:41:12 PM »
Being immobile is not a setback for Wizard Tower when with attack spell it covers the whole arena except 2 corners when it is in the middle.

Are you being serious?  Think about the current tower, then consider a tower that can move.  The moving tower is clearly better.  Sure, you can place your tower in the center squares, but that makes it more vulnerable.

What kind of argument is that?

Are you serious? Think about a billion of dollars, then think about 100 billions dollars. The 100 billions dollars are clearly better.

Of course a moving WT is better than an immobile one. It doesnt make an immobile one less powerful

Shad0w

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #80 on: October 25, 2013, 06:26:50 AM »
I am just saying the card is not broken. Yes it is more powerful than most cards but I do not even know if I would call it overpowered. It is very close to being over powered but just because you cast it does not give you a win.
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Sailor Vulcan

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Wizard Tower
« Reply #81 on: October 25, 2013, 09:54:51 AM »
Something doesn't have to be an automatic win card to be overpowered. It just needs to unbalance the game--make it so that players'  in-game tactics and book-making decisions are significantly altered to compensate for it. If nothing else, the fact that a great playtester like you used such an obviously pathetic argument proves that you're clutching at straws.

I am of the strong opinion that the metagame of EVERY customizable strategy game is an endless experiment, an eternal balancing act. There are so many complex factors, so many different ways to play. And the people who work so hard to make such games work are only human. No matter how hard they try, some things will slip under the radar, they WILL make mistakes, and there WILL be misprints.

That being said, I think that its possible to minimize how many mistakes are made, and then directly fixing the ones that are made, rather than trying to compensate for a mistake with more mistakes.

I think the reason card edits after printing look so bad to people is because people are evaluating this game in the same way they would evaluate games from other gaming genres. I personally think rulings to fix errata are actually vital every once in a while in a customizable strategy game.

What are you going to do when you start releasing different formats (including multiplayer formats)? Cards that are well balanced in one format might sometimes be game breaking in another.

I also strongly suggest that each format eventually develop a banned/restricted list on an as needed basis. Maybe you could create a sort of Epic #2 trait, where a maximum of two copies of a specific card with the trait can be included in the spellbook.

Please consider what I have said. It's not too late to fix things.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 09:57:51 AM by Imaginator »
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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #82 on: October 25, 2013, 10:18:09 AM »
well put imaginator.

I too was surprised about Shadows response reassuring us the tower is definately not being OP, but certainly more powerful than most cards, but only borderline OP - still never garuanteeing a win.

Its not like anyone ever claim that Wizard tower = auto win.
Must a card now be autowin in order to be OP?

Shad0w

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #83 on: October 25, 2013, 10:23:11 AM »
@Imaginator

Nope just at work and do not care enough to put more time into the post. I could do a full write up but I just do not have the time currently
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Shad0w

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #84 on: October 25, 2013, 10:43:08 AM »
well put imaginator.

I too was surprised about Shadows response reassuring us the tower is definately not being OP, but certainly more powerful than most cards, but only borderline OP - still never garuanteeing a win.

Its not like anyone ever claim that Wizard tower = auto win.
Must a card now be autowin in order to be OP?

No but it must always unbalance the game state when it is played. In many games this is not the case with WT.  Yes it can be hard to play against but I would say it does not unbalance a game.
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


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Sailor Vulcan

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Wizard Tower
« Reply #85 on: October 25, 2013, 12:39:16 PM »
Deleted my post
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 04:57:18 PM by Imaginator »
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jacksmack

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #86 on: October 25, 2013, 12:41:14 PM »
well put imaginator.

I too was surprised about Shadows response reassuring us the tower is definately not being OP, but certainly more powerful than most cards, but only borderline OP - still never garuanteeing a win.

Its not like anyone ever claim that Wizard tower = auto win.
Must a card now be autowin in order to be OP?

No but it must always unbalance the game state when it is played. In many games this is not the case with WT.  Yes it can be hard to play against but I would say it does not unbalance a game.

Thats not really true... It doesnt neccesarily have to be put into play each and every game in order to be OP.
There is also a spellbook building aspect that has to be balanced... WT skews this too.
Why?
Because a wizard only has to put in 1 jet stream 1 surge wave and 1 geyser with this card.
He will be able to cast each spell 4 times easily.... the NEEDED that is... others have to spend way more spell points to get the same flexibility.

im not saying WT is OP because of this...im just saying its not ONLY about when cards are being played.

sIKE

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #87 on: October 25, 2013, 12:59:41 PM »
I am just saying the card is not broken. Yes it is more powerful than most cards but I do not even know if I would call it overpowered. It is very close to being over powered but just because you cast it does not give you a win.
I am not quite sure what it takes to call a card OP but I know you have a threshold vis-a-vie the Battle Fury nerf. I do know that every game I have played either against or with the WT the player with the WT has won. I do mean every game. With a skilled opponent vs. other skilled opponent I would wager the win rate of the mage with the WT is in the high 90 percentile of wins.

I despise nerfing any card, I still chafe mightily at the BF/HoB/ToL nerfs, but this card deserves to have some tuning of stats to make it a bit more fair to against other mages. Nothing as severe as the aforementioned nerfs though. I would think Epic as a starter and casting cost in the 11 range or Epic and how the spell is changed out costs the mage a quick action.
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Shad0w

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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #88 on: October 25, 2013, 03:00:04 PM »
You've surprised me with another ludicrous assertion. Whether a card unbalances the metagame or not isn't based on just a single game or matchup. You know that just as well as the rest of us. If you don't have time to give a decent logical explanation, even a short one, then maybe someone else can do it instead. Just because you're too busy and don't care enough to explain it anytime soon doesn't mean that everyone is.

Although the fact that you've posted on this thread multiple times today, and even was the first person to post here again after you spoke of not having enough time, makes me wonder how busy you actually are.

Enough to only do shorter posts like this not a 3-4 paragraph write up.
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Re: Wizard Tower
« Reply #89 on: October 25, 2013, 04:31:39 PM »
Pretty rude post dude - Its probably a bit awkward for the moderator to tell you to calm it down without looking like a despot, but I for one wouldnt call it unjustified.

Sure there are other people working for or affiliated with AW that could make a post, but they've a lot going on atm I'd imagine with Essen and getting DvsN out.  Even without that, Shadow is one of the more prolific posters/advisers on the forums, so it would suggest he tracks the content and material more than the others do.

Calling his views ludicrous is kinda well ludicrous.  I didn't get the impression that Shadow was saying what you assert he said and besides, even if he did, perhaps dignify him (and others) with the credit that they're not being total d!cks and perhaps have a valid point even if it didn't come across clearly.  I mean if nothing else he's part of the group whose probably more familiar with the game and its emerging game space than any other. 

A little patience, or respectful comment that you don't agree, or would appreciate further clarification, would seem more useful than ragging someone for giving the time and attention they can.
 

You've surprised me with another ludicrous assertion. Whether a card unbalances the metagame or not isn't based on just a single game or matchup. You know that just as well as the rest of us. If you don't have time to give a decent logical explanation, even a short one, then maybe someone else can do it instead. Just because you're too busy and don't care enough to explain it anytime soon doesn't mean that everyone is.

Although the fact that you've posted on this thread multiple times today, and even was the first person to post here again after you spoke of not having enough time, makes me wonder how busy you actually are.