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Author Topic: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)  (Read 16608 times)

ringkichard

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Re: Earth Wizard Kill Zone (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2013, 04:32:23 PM »
The long term strategic weakness of Golem Pit is just that it's kinda slow for a combo book. Grizzly Wizard with Teleport and Force Hold and Mage Tower can probably spring the telefrag faster.

A faster combo will beat it, if you have one. That would mean a combo relying on Fellella or the Imp, or a dedicated push-thorn book with Hugin. Basically, any combo book that lets you use a spawnpoint to accelerate setup or crush resistance.

Come to think of it, dedicated push-thorn can use Wizard's Tower and Acid Ball along with Dissolve, and might be faster without resorting to the fragile familiars.

Come to think of it again, that curse sword familiar might be able to interact well enough. Imp would make a stronger pure combo book, but sword might make an overall stronger agro-combo book. Hmm.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 04:37:28 PM by ringkichard »
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sIKE

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Re: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2013, 04:42:10 PM »
How about Curse Sword and Imp...hmmm mighty nasty, but two actions.....
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Re: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2013, 04:47:45 PM »
I love your name for it! So much so that I renamed the thread after your name. Hopefully, you will have coined a name for the archetype.

I agree that Curse Warlock is a really interesting combo. But Transfusing all those curses from your Imp familiar to target mage (avoiding Magebind where possible) only demonstrates that the card that I was most excited about, Enchantment Transfusion, is actually another example of breaking the "alternating turns with action overlap" paradigm that is the game's design (at least it is prepared "saved" actions).

I view Transfusion and Ready Marker stacking as symptomatic of the same issue: players should not be allowed to have concentrated bursts of sequential actions anytime that cannot be potentially interrupted by the opponent. It breaks the game's Chess/Go ebb-and-flow.

With equal action markers, double actions + double QC "opportunity windows" occur in the off-initiative then on-initiative turn change-over. If you have 1 more action marker, you deny opponent the double action (you will always force last action every turn) and can potentially get a triple action if opponent acts first on his initiative. If you have 2+ action markers than opponent, you get more sequential actions but the pass mechanic also allows opponent to time when he interjects with actions. However, ability to interrupt does not exist with multiple free action Transfusions and Ready Marker free actions. You are guaranteed that sequence that you want uninterrupted, even if you have just 1 action to his 10 actions. This ability is what is so open to abuse. The powerlessness of the opponent to foil your plan by choosing to act at different times is the key difference and why both issues need to be looked at carefully.

It's made worse by the lack of clarity about Transfusion. LOS from caster, donor and target. The consensus that it does not trigger Nullify (so you can't counter a Transfusion by Transfusing a Nullify in response, creating Magic's "stack" timing issues that instant effects cause). Yet they allowed a response timed to negate or avoid targeting as per the FAQ or as timed counters. I hope they will add more clarity soon.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 12:42:27 AM by DeckBuilder »
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ringkichard

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Re: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2013, 11:04:05 PM »

It's made worse by the lack of clarity about Transfusion. LOS from caster, donor and target. The consensus that it does not trigger Nullify (so you can't counter a Transfusion by Transfusing a Nullify in response, creating Magic's "stack" timing issues that instant effects cause). Yet they allowed a response timed to negate or avoid targeting as per the FAQ or as timed counters. I hope they will add more clarity soon.

It's not just consensus that Transfusion doesn't trigger Nullify, it's the rules. Revealing an Enchantment doesn't have resolution steps, so the opponent is never given the opportunity to do anything between the time you start revealing and when the Enchantment takes effect completely. (Unless revealing the Enchantment does something like cast a spell or make an attack that has its own resolution steps.)

You also can't use a Divine Intervention to avoid an Enchantment Transfusion once the Transfusion's controller uses it. There's just never an opportunity.

Yes, that's right; not even God can save you from Enchantment Transfusion.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 11:09:20 PM by ringkichard »
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Re: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2013, 01:36:26 AM »
Deckbuilder, isn't it fair to ask or at least consider that part of the strategy of being a thinking opponent is watching out for someone setting up big action advantage sequences?  Sure you can't interrupt it once its activated, but usually there are a range of turns necessary to build it up... isn't there?

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Re: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2013, 02:42:44 AM »
Deckbuilder, isn't it fair to ask or at least consider that part of the strategy of being a thinking opponent is watching out for someone setting up big action advantage sequences?  Sure you can't interrupt it once its activated, but usually there are a range of turns necessary to build it up... isn't there?

Yes, after consideration, you are entirely right here, Moonglow. Maybe I am being alarmist about the potential of Enchantment Transfusion. The player who uses it pays for all the actions in advance +1 more action (for the ability to time attachments). Its existence, its "multiple enchantmens moved as no-action" almost single-handedly creates Combo here (in a game of choose 2 spells where having spell X and spell Y together is no problem). In this case, the combo is Teleport + Tanglevine + Jinx + Nullify (4 cards in hand in effect) all within the space of 2 consecutive fast actions. This demonstrates the premium value (over normal creature actions) of spell actions (familiars) and the even more premium value of spell ready marker actions (Wizard's Tower). Spawnpoints as spell actions will come in between the two as their timing is limited to Deployment (usually a pre-emptive boon) yet you can string it in a sequence whenever you regain Initiative.

However, currently, there are very few (or maybe even no) tools that an opponent has to disrupt the Combo. That is why, in another thread, I suggested this card (which fits in with promo Altar of Peace so all major schools have an Epic control conjuration).

Shrine of the Warrior Code
Epic Zone Exclusive Temple Conjuration, War Level 2 (cost armour life TBC)
All enchantments (hidden and revealed) gain Upkeep +1

Not only does it reward Warlord for using one-shot Commands and not persistent enchantments which always benefit at least once when revealed (at instant speed too), it creates a problem for enchantment stacking for Transfusion Combos. As Purge Magic targets creature activating any Nullify in the stack, getting round this Combo is quite hard (as trying to kill the donor only moves the stack to another donor).

Of course that card would completely shake the current enchantment-heavy meta, perhaps too much. But the sentiment still applies. They need to give the opponent tools to break the inevitable accumulating Combo trigger.

The longterm issue is not Enchantment Transfusion but the Kill-the-King ability of Teleport into any Kill Zone. Any spell that removes the need to move your creatures removes a critical dimension of the game hence cannot be good. I have thought of two solutions to Teleport Opponent Mage Assassination that does not require an unsightly errata. One is to amend the rules to cover all future Teleport effects: a Mage cannot be Teleported by any effect he does not control (like the Stun exception for Mages). The other is an enchantment I suggested in another thread; "Negate. You MAY reveal to counter incantation targeting this creature". I am sure better people than me can come up with better. Teleport should allow moving your Mage. moving a threat (but not an enemy Mage) into your Kill Zone, moving your Slow threat onto a target but should not allow Luring Enemy Mage into your Kill Zone. This Mage Assassination concept, easily executed in any build, creates turtling like this build and is just too strong, bypassing the finesse other mages (like the Warlord and Priestess) are based upon.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 09:47:12 AM by DeckBuilder »
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sIKE

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Re: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2013, 11:07:27 AM »
One is to amend the rules to cover all future Teleport effects: a Mage cannot be Teleported by any effect he does not control (like the Stun exception for Mages).
So you nerf Teleport Trap? I think this would break mechanics within the game. I have setup Kill boxes with a couple of different types of mages.

"Negate. You MAY reveal to counter incantation targeting this creature".
Jinx, Nullify, Reverse Magic all fit the bill here. Since they would/could be attached to the Mage even if you shifted you enchantments, the Teleport spell is an incantation and would/could be countered by one of these spells. If you shifted the one of these enchantments over to my mage (which I think is what is going on here) they would then be used to counter the Teleport.

Unless I am missing something.

It seems to me that a strong mana denial opening by the opposing mage would screw a lot of this timing up.  Haven't tested this yet though.
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Re: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #22 on: September 24, 2013, 11:36:44 AM »
So you nerf Teleport Trap? I think this would break mechanics within the game. I have setup Kill boxes with a couple of different types of mages.

If you feel that "kill boxes" is a perfectly viable strategy, then maybe Teleport Trap (which has some finesse to use well) should not be nerfed. Yeah maybe it's just a Wizard's cheap access to Teleport which makes the lure just so simple and powerful that is a problem. I don't know the solution, sIKE, but something don't seem quite right if never moving can win you games. This build may be brutally efficient but, after you dazzle your victim the first time with the combo, for repeat games it just doesn't make for a fun game for either player really.


"Negate. You MAY reveal to counter incantation targeting this creature".
Jinx, Nullify, Reverse Magic all fit the bill here. Since they would/could be attached to the Mage even if you shifted you enchantments, the Teleport spell is an incantation and would/could be countered by one of these spells. If you shifted the one of these enchantments over to my mage (which I think is what is going on here) they would then be used to counter the Teleport.

Unless I am missing something.

Yes, I think you did miss the the point. The player defending against an unwanted Teleport cloaks himself with the hidden enchantment (as well as Decoy perhaps, in random order). While this enchant has less scope than Nullify, it is not mandatory like Retaliate. So you can always time it to counter that crucial incantation (teleport).

It seems to me that a strong mana denial opening by the opposing mage would screw a lot of this timing up.  Haven't tested this yet though.

Yes, I think you may have solved the puzzle there! Mana denial (I have never played against it really and only played it once, painfully long, described in a "mana denial viable?" strategy thread) could be the solution. I would be very happy to discover it was. Siphon will be within 2 of my Wizard's Tower but it may be a trap to be distracted (12 is still ok). The good thing about Golems is most other control conjurations have no effect (Idol, Deathlock, Orb, only Obelisk hurts but can't combo with Mind Control). I think faced with purist Mana Denial, I would play a more aggressive game, venturing out instead. The mana denial of the above proposed anti-enchantment conjuration may have shown the way after all. I hope your test proves this to be true.
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lettucemode

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Re: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2013, 11:49:59 AM »
I didn't think about the transfuse-Jinx trick, nice one sIKE. That still doesn't really solve the assassination issue though. All the other mage has to do is prepare two teleports instead of just one. You may say he's giving up an action here but it doesn't matter - as soon as he teleports you to the kill zone, he wins. And I think that's the issue: a wizard deck built around assassination will probably have 4 teleports plus wands, and eventually one will get through. You can delay it, sure, but even if you prepared two Nullifys every round you'd still get teleported thanks to initiative.

I like DeckBuilder's previous suggestion of errata-ing Teleport's targeting to be "Non-enemy-mage creature". Another solution could be a new enchantment called Dimensional Anchor that prevents teleporting effects. But the former is more elegant.

Mana-denial seems like a great counter-strategy, but what about all the other non-Wizard mages? Since mana-denial has to be factored in during deckbuilding (it's not just a playstyle you can switch into once you see the assassination coming, you need the right cards), now everyone has to play mana-denial to avoid getting assassinated. Yay, more reasons to play Wizard over anything else!

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Re: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2013, 11:50:21 AM »
While this seems like a cool combo and all, I think that quick aggro would be a problem because you wouldn't have time to set up all of your tricks.  A aggro-rush Beastmaster, Warlock or Forcemaster should be able to put up a lot of pressure very quickly.

I also think a Lightning Wizard would be ok since Iron Golems are extra susceptible to Lighting spells.  After being teleported into the killbox (and the Nullify/Jinx is burned off) a Circle of Lightning would be pretty sweet (or just anticipating the killbox combo and putting the Circle of Lightning on before being teleported then revealing it once in there).  A Lightning Wizard could also cast Electrify within the killbox which CANNOT be stopped by Jinx.  Seeing all those Iron Golems standing around Dazed/Stunned would be amusing, and the Wizards Voltaric Sheild would help mitigate damage.

A Wizard running Huginn could also get out since Huginn can teleport the Wizard out.

Those are just two things off of the top of my head that I think would give the build problems.



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Re: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2013, 11:56:07 AM »

Yes, I think you did miss the the point. The player defending against an unwanted Teleport cloaks himself with the hidden enchantment (as well as Decoy perhaps, in random order). While this enchant has less scope than Nullify, it is not mandatory like Retaliate. So you can always time it to counter that crucial incantation (teleport).


Purge Magic into Teleport still beats it. Unless you have a Nullify or something up. But now you're spending more actions than the opponent just to avoid something.

While this seems like a cool combo and all, I think that quick aggro would be a problem because you wouldn't have time to set up all of your tricks.  A aggro-rush Beastmaster, Warlock or Forcemaster should be able to put up a lot of pressure very quickly.

I also think a Lightning Wizard would be ok since Iron Golems are extra susceptible to Lighting spells.  After being teleported into the killbox (and the Nullify/Jinx is burned off) a Circle of Lightning would be pretty sweet (or just anticipating the killbox combo and putting the Circle of Lightning on before being teleported then revealing it once in there).  A Lightning Wizard could also cast Electrify within the killbox which CANNOT be stopped by Jinx.  Seeing all those Iron Golems standing around Dazed/Stunned would be amusing, and the Wizards Voltaric Sheild would help mitigate damage.

A Wizard running Huginn could also get out since Huginn can teleport the Wizard out.

Those are just two things off of the top of my head that I think would give the build problems.

So basically, everyone should just play two different things: Air Wizard to beat Assassination Wizard, and Assassination Wizard to beat everything else.

Sorry, I know that's not what you're saying. Seems like all theorycrafting just devolves into "the wizard can do it better".
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 12:00:54 PM by lettucemode »

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Re: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2013, 12:04:19 PM »

Yes, I think you did miss the the point. The player defending against an unwanted Teleport cloaks himself with the hidden enchantment (as well as Decoy perhaps, in random order). While this enchant has less scope than Nullify, it is not mandatory like Retaliate. So you can always time it to counter that crucial incantation (teleport).


Purge Magic into Teleport still beats it. Unless you have a Nullify or something up. But now you're spending more actions than the opponent just to avoid something.

While this seems like a cool combo and all, I think that quick aggro would be a problem because you wouldn't have time to set up all of your tricks.  A aggro-rush Beastmaster, Warlock or Forcemaster should be able to put up a lot of pressure very quickly.

I also think a Lightning Wizard would be ok since Iron Golems are extra susceptible to Lighting spells.  After being teleported into the killbox (and the Nullify/Jinx is burned off) a Circle of Lightning would be pretty sweet (or just anticipating the killbox combo and putting the Circle of Lightning on before being teleported then revealing it once in there).  A Lightning Wizard could also cast Electrify within the killbox which CANNOT be stopped by Jinx.  Seeing all those Iron Golems standing around Dazed/Stunned would be amusing, and the Wizards Voltaric Sheild would help mitigate damage.

A Wizard running Huginn could also get out since Huginn can teleport the Wizard out.

Those are just two things off of the top of my head that I think would give the build problems.

So basically, everyone should just play two different things: Air Wizard to beat Assassination Wizard, and Assassination Wizard to beat everything else.

Sorry, I know that's not what you're saying. Seems like all theorycrafting threads just devolve into "the wizard can do it better".

You skimmed right over the part where I named three other mages that I think can aggro-rush faster than you can set up the combo.  So I'm actually saying that I think you can play 4 different builds that can beat this depending on how it all plays out.  If mana denial works, then that's 5. 

What about a build that ALSO doesn't leave it's opening zone?  Do you really think that you're going to out-turtle a Priestess?  I'm not sure you can.  If not, that's 6 builds that can beat it (again, depending on how it all plays out, nothing is 100% in this game).

So to boil this down to "play Wizard or lose" is oversimplifying both my argument and this game.

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Re: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2013, 12:49:41 PM »
So to boil this down to "play Wizard or lose" is oversimplifying both my argument and this game.

I think you are right. Maybe I just need a break from the forum. I always tend to enjoy a game less if I hang around on its forums too much. Too much theorycrafting and not enough playing :)

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Re: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2013, 12:51:20 PM »
When we are talking about this particular meta: Earth/Water Wizard they are practically unbeatable when played by a experienced player. I know that I am not among the elite of MW players, but I do not consider myself a slouch. Even knowing going into a game with say Charmyna what I was facing, he chewed through three different mages the first two I forfeited (yes everyone just like chess, if you see mate, call the game) with in 5-7 rounds. The last one I gave him a good challenge and could of potentially won if not for a Dissolve/WoT/Force Push combo that finished me off.

I have had much better luck with Promos than without. Critical Strike on a Wand with Temple High Guards (one a Holy Avenger) can deal quite a quick amount of damage even to the Iron Golems.

I think corrode is going to change the Wizard meta allot. I can tell you I am already planning a couple of Wand with Acid on them to splash on Gate to Voltaire, Battleforge, Mana Crystal, Golems, and heavily armored mages. As we get more cards and the piercing trait will help balance things out.
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Re: Golem Pit (Combo-Attrition: 1 Core + FvW + CoK)
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2013, 01:29:51 PM »
While this seems like a cool combo and all, I think that quick aggro would be a problem because you wouldn't have time to set up all of your tricks.  A aggro-rush Beastmaster, Warlock or Forcemaster should be able to put up a lot of pressure very quickly.

I also think a Lightning Wizard would be ok since Iron Golems are extra susceptible to Lighting spells.  After being teleported into the killbox (and the Nullify/Jinx is burned off) a Circle of Lightning would be pretty sweet (or just anticipating the killbox combo and putting the Circle of Lightning on before being teleported then revealing it once in there).  A Lightning Wizard could also cast Electrify within the killbox which CANNOT be stopped by Jinx.  Seeing all those Iron Golems standing around Dazed/Stunned would be amusing, and the Wizards Voltaric Sheild would help mitigate damage.

A Wizard running Huginn could also get out since Huginn can teleport the Wizard out.

Those are just two things off of the top of my head that I think would give the build problems.

Thanks for your post, Koz, but I never posted it as a challenge, unbeatable. Just as a strong tier 1 build that has not been beaten in my local meta. Hence why I was first to predict unfashionable Earth Wizard to win at Gencon citing all the tricks in this thread. I think (I may be wrong) you predicted Warlock (such as piousflea) or Forcemaster to win. I appreciate that the Earth Wizard win was a different build but the principle still stands that a Wizard can handle super-aggressive.

I have even stated in my analysis against super-aggressive Beastmaster post that I would adjust my standard opening, a caveat I stated in my very first post. There is never just "one way" to play a well-built book and from the plethora of free action armour (plus Shield), with a Golem on turn 2 latest etc, please be assured that it can handle aggression. I am not saying the pressure from these aggressive builds cannot beat it. Just that in our local meta, they have all failed. Although my Beastmaster almost won (I was Beastmaster with my friend's card pool and my friend was playing my book, an older iteration with Idol of Pestilence, Deathlock and Orb instead of Arcane creatures).

From the tone of your post, Koz, you seem a bit riled, as if the concept offends you personally and your mission is to diminish it. I think the last time I saw you this riled was when you vigorously defended Hand of Bim-Shalla Temple of Light as NOT overpowered. Actually no, it was a "vigorous debate" you had with Dude regarding must-have cards and your opinion of his Jokhtari build. Anyway, I know I shouldn't fan the flames refuting what you have written but hey, I like to play with fire. So...

I have mentioned Huginn is the combo's biggest problem, more than once, even in my opening post. In fact, it was because of Huginn "breaking the lock" that I hybridised the book into Plan B, attrition teleporting monsters. That's why I have the 2 Hydra and Gorgon, to go down a more traditional route when the Combo will fail against a good player.

I have also mentioned at least once that against Air Wizard or Priest, I forego Golems for the traditional Arcane monstrosities because of Lightning and Light issues. This was the advantage of having 7 elites, so few bad match-ups as you have alternative creature threats.

I won't even mention the Forcemaster match-up (I feel so sorry when my opponent reveals Forcemaster vs. this Earth Wizard).

As for Priestess turtling, that's what Teleport Trap and Spiked Pit is for. Although the post below is unfair as it talks about a teaching game (I knew my potential recruit liked combos so I was showing off a bit), it does show some of the tricks available.

Sorry to hijack this thread but Enchantment Transfusion not needing LOS reminds me of a memorable game anecdote I have to share...

Playing Earth Wizard in a teaching game, I had 4 Stone Golems with Pestilence Idol in my start corner trapped within 2 of my own Walls of Steel! I was in NC with Enchantment Transfusion, Force Hold and Nullify all hidden on me, enemy Priestess in his start corner with c.40 life (from Sunfire Amulet, Brogan had destroyed Deathlock and other conjurations before dying to Lightning Bolts from the toolbox Wizard's Tower). Going last, I moved to FC and cast Teleport Trap on NC then QC Teleport on his mage onto my trap which then teleported him to my corner Wall of Steel cell with 4 Golems (Teleport Trap needs no LOS). I had initiative next turn. He Early QC Eagleclaw Boots (he was 3 away from me). I moved back to NC, cast Jinx on myself then transfused all 3 other enchantments on me to his mage (Transfusion needs no LOS). Unable to escape (Force Hold now revealed), he cast his other spell Blinding Flash that did not Jinx, 3 Golems Dazed, 1 Golem Stunned (+2 vs. Nonliving). But over 2 turns of attacks from my Golems was just enough to kill him (next turn, he cast Dispel twice delayed by Jinx to break the Force Hold but the turn after, my first action Golem attack killed him just before he climbed out).

Yes, I know this was over-elaborate (it was a demo to a beginner who set up a strong fort of Archers + Guardian Angels + ToL that almost killed me, saved by Voltaric Shield and Force Orb). A Spike Pit and (already set-up) Enchantment Transfusion on Nullify plus Jinx does the same thing more efficiently. But I wanted to demo some of the potential trickery in the game as I knew he likes difficult to pull-off combos.

I half suspect that someone will now say that we played by the wrong rules!

I am well aware that zonal attacks (and worse Chain Lightning) causes problems. If you missed it, I was demonstrating how, because these spells (and damage barriers) have become scarce in spell books (1 Ring of Fire in Warlock is about it really) because swarm is not seen to be a threat (for reasons given in my "Etherian Lifetree and Corrode" strategy thread). Because of this "gap in the meta", this build thrives until the new set arrives. I am perfectly aware of all those Core set spells like Electrify and Circle of Lightning. Did you really think only you had suddenly thought of these silver bullets that I had totally forgotten about?

Compare how I refute your claims to how I embraced sIKE's claim Mana Denial was possibly an Achilles heel - because I hadn't played against it, unlike the staple strategies you cited. Or how I mulled over niche Destroy Magic and gave it a fair chance appraising it?

I think what really riled me was the plain aggressive way that you responded to Lettucemode who, btw, is quite new to this forum but very enthusiastic. I recall reading your angry exchanges with piousflea on BGG over Warlock being weaker than Beastmaster. I remember you being so abrasive to The Dude in a "must have cards" thread that, chilled out as he is, he even called you "rude".

You really need to stop being so aggressive and antagonistic and rubbing people up the wrong way. I know you are incredibly talented at it but it's not something to flaunt. Really, it's not.

I respect your thoughts and think you are a very knowledgeable player. I am sure that in person at a Con, you are far more personable. But the way you take everything as a personal affront, and especially the way you treat other posters so dismissively (some of whom are new and easily intimidated by the forum), you really need to examine your responses and see that you are not coming off well in print.

Just chill, Koz. I wasn't dissing your favourite builds. I was simply playing to the meta and also highlighting some mechanic issues in the game via a very strong build. The disdain that you show, I don't know what to think of it, but its puts people off. Just chill?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 02:44:32 PM by DeckBuilder »
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