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Author Topic: What would the warrior look like?  (Read 6323 times)

Moonglow

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What would the warrior look like?
« on: September 23, 2013, 02:37:10 PM »
Have wondered a few times how a warrior could be pulled off in the MW format.  Not a warrior mage, but a more straight up conan style fighter who could be competitive in the arena, and still fun to play.

They'd need some kind of spell resistance to be competitive - not total immunity, but something like magebind on all spells targeting them might help.

They'd need spells, but they - a bit like the warlord could be framed more as devices and tools - perhaps he has a magic bag and its full of random stuff just in case.

Thinking randomly:
He starts with high health - say 40+, low channeling (but his spells and devices would need to be low mana). 
Special abilities could be regen +1 and automatic charge. 

Has a ready token that can be used to pull something out of his bag once a turn for free. 
Guess I thought he could be action enhanced to make up for the low action advantage he'd get from casting few creatures/conjurations.   

Meta style would need to be fast solo agro - like the force master often plays but more stripped back.  Perhaps he can manipulate local terrain, so walls and obstacles that you hadn't noticed get in your way. 

Anyway, just curious - there are a heap of Fight and fantasy type archtypes out there that in the books and memes are all battling.  I wouldn't want to see MW lose its richness, but would be interested in seeing if the format could handle assassin/monk/warrior/ vs mage battles.



Sailor Vulcan

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Re: What would the warrior look like?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2013, 10:00:40 PM »
Perhaps there could be a non-magic version of Mage Wars that's compatible with real Mage Wars in the same sense as Warmachine and Hordes are compatible with each other? I seriously doubt it though, for several significant reasons:

First off, you've got to admit, pretty much all non-mages would have to be solo builds because they can't summon creatures. Also, one of the biggest reasons for the whole institution of the mage wars is so that you don't have too many spells flying around causing collateral damage. Anyone who's not a mage could just have a regular fist fight or sword fight. Or they could just grab a bow and shoot the other person with an arrow before they have the chance to fight back. Or they could use a gun if they actually have one. Disregarding differences in terrain and inventory/equipment, it wouldn't be as long, drawn out and complicated as a battle between mages. It isn't as likely to be as interesting I think.

Perhaps the most important thing to consider is the plain fact that mages in this game are far more powerful than regular people. I mean, the mages are level 6 creatures while the strongest of non-mage humans would probably be around level 3 without a good weapon. A mage might be able to take an arrow to the gut and they would keep going for a while without passing out since they have over 30 health--GREATER than and EARTH ELEMENTAL, vs a regular human I would say has about 10 health. Magic is powerful stuff for enhancing the body. They probably live longer than regular people too (except warlocks of course).

I really don't see a non-mage human having 40 starting health or more. That doesn't seem feasible at all.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 10:06:13 PM by Imaginator »
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Wiz-Pig

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Re: What would the warrior look like?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2013, 08:59:55 AM »
Perhaps there could be a non-magic version of Mage Wars that's compatible with real Mage Wars in the same sense as Warmachine and Hordes are compatible with each other? I seriously doubt it though, for several significant reasons:

First off, you've got to admit, pretty much all non-mages would have to be solo builds because they can't summon creatures. Also, one of the biggest reasons for the whole institution of the mage wars is so that you don't have too many spells flying around causing collateral damage. Anyone who's not a mage could just have a regular fist fight or sword fight. Or they could just grab a bow and shoot the other person with an arrow before they have the chance to fight back. Or they could use a gun if they actually have one. Disregarding differences in terrain and inventory/equipment, it wouldn't be as long, drawn out and complicated as a battle between mages. It isn't as likely to be as interesting I think.

Perhaps the most important thing to consider is the plain fact that mages in this game are far more powerful than regular people. I mean, the mages are level 6 creatures while the strongest of non-mage humans would probably be around level 3 without a good weapon. A mage might be able to take an arrow to the gut and they would keep going for a while without passing out since they have over 30 health--GREATER than and EARTH ELEMENTAL, vs a regular human I would say has about 10 health. Magic is powerful stuff for enhancing the body. They probably live longer than regular people too (except warlocks of course).

I really don't see a non-mage human having 40 starting health or more. That doesn't seem feasible at all.

While I agree with you that on conceptual grounds it doesn't make a ton of sense to have a non-mage in mage wars. I continue to be amused by the paradox between your expansive imagination and the very logical limits you present sometimes when confronted with other people's imaginations.

I think you could easily have other characters that are as powerful as mages in the setting. It's just a matter of say that it is so. I do agree with the extreme difficulty in making such a character compatible with the rules of this game, but there would likely be ways to do so if you were committed enough. Moonglow has some good ideas for how that might work.

Wiz-Pig

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Re: What would the warrior look like?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2013, 09:09:35 AM »
Anyway, just curious - there are a heap of Fight and fantasy type archtypes out there that in the books and memes are all battling.  I wouldn't want to see MW lose its richness, but would be interested in seeing if the format could handle assassin/monk/warrior/ vs mage battles.

Expanding on your concepts I could see an alternate point generation/expenditure system working in parallel to the mana/spell system for easy of compatibility. A warrior character could expend effort or chi in order to preform impressive combat maneuvers or other tactical feats. Equipment could be required for certain types of maneuvers potentially and powerful magical items could act as a balance to help the non-mage cope with his magical opponents.

I do think that the base abilities of any non-mage would have to be scaled up tremendously to make them competative.

For instance:

45 health 2 armor Defense 8+
Fast, Elusive, Climbing

QA Melee 6 dice, 4+ rot
FA Melee 5 dice Doublestrike

Antimagic Aura:
You gain a defense roll 8+ against all spells that target you (such as enchantments) during the counterspell step. As a full round action you may spend X chi to eliminate the effects of all magic on you.


I'm not particularly interested in this because the game is Mage Wars, but it is doable with enough thought.

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Re: What would the warrior look like?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2013, 12:04:52 PM »
I don't see it as a paradox. Thinking critically about my own or others ideas increases the quality of ideas that we come up with. My logicalness makes my imagination more productive, not less. I was just saying what I thought and why.

That being said, I've changed my mind, because I thought of a way this could work thematically. They could use science and technology to put them on even footing with mages. For instance they could have almost indestructible armor equipments made of very sturdy metal, or a conjuration that attaches to them that diverts all attacks to it and therefore artificially augments the wearer's health. However, that would mean you would have to be able to guard conjurations.

I think it would probably depend on technological advancements to put regular people on even footing with mages. I just don't see non-mage humans having that much starting life of their own without some sort of innate chemical buffs (i.e. bite down on tooth– swallow steroids when entering arena) or genetic alterations.

Instead of casting spells, they could have items in their inventory, as well as abilities and certain things they already brought with them into the arena. Also, rather than just the average untrained and uneducated person fighting, I think the schools theme should be consistent with non-magical arena fighters too. If its not Mages, then it has to be something. I personally think that if it's someone using science and technology to put themself on even footing with a mage, then they would have to be an engineer, someone working for an engineer, or someone rich enough to buy all the items they need premade and with enough knowledge to use them correctly.

However, I think to make it sound more interesting, it should be spelled as Ingenier, to sound like Ingenuity, rather than "engine"

So far I've thought of three main schools of Ingeniering: Life, Chemicals, and Geography

Life: the study of life in all its forms. Expect to see genetically altered creatures and "conjurations" come out of the cages and pots held by the life-trained Ingenier. If they bought a  warp drive from the geography-trained Ingenier they can create a rift in space to get their creatures through.


Chemicals: the study of the composition of matter.
an Ingenier trained in chemicals likes to buff themself and debuff their enemies using a variety of concoctions. They can also make explosions. If they bought a warp drive from the geography-trained Ingenier, the Ingenier trained in chemicals can bring their lab assistants into the fray.

Geography: the study of where things are in relation to each other. The Ingenier trained in geography is all about movement and range. They prefer ranged attacks, or melee attacks transferred through a machine. Because of their great understanding of position, movement and space (and some mechanical help) they can always strike their target accurately if given enough time to calculate and graph the position of the target.

Training in more than one Ingeniering school would lower total inventory points but make it possible to make different kinds of items to take to the arena. For instance, training in all three schools could allow someone to create robots or perhaps be a "jack of all trades". Training in both life and chemicals could allow one to create medicines to heal oneself and syringes to drain blood or insert viruses into living creatures. Training in life and geography could allow someone to know about and strike at pressure points of enemy creatures and conjurations to paralyze or SOMETIMES kill them instantly. Training in chemicals and geography could allow someone to manipulate their terrain, like dropping sticky substances to trap or slow down enemies or freezing the ground and equipping themselves with ice skates to give themselves fast and elusive, but at the cost of losing their move action for the round if they are successfully attacked.

Etc. Etc.
There's all sorts of different strategies different Ingeniers could use.

It would probably have to take place in a more "modern" era in Etheria, though.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 12:26:16 PM by Imaginator »
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Wiz-Pig

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Re: What would the warrior look like?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2013, 01:56:32 PM »
So far I've thought of three main schools of Ingeniering: Life, Chemicals, and Geography

Life: the study of life in all its forms. Expect to see genetically altered creatures and "conjurations" come out of the cages and pots held by the life-trained Ingenier. If they bought a  warp drive from the geography-trained Ingenier they can create a rift in space to get their creatures through.


Chemicals: the study of the composition of matter.
an Ingenier trained in chemicals likes to buff themself and debuff their enemies using a variety of concoctions. They can also make explosions. If they bought a warp drive from the geography-trained Ingenier, the Ingenier trained in chemicals can bring their lab assistants into the fray.

Geography: the study of where things are in relation to each other. The Ingenier trained in geography is all about movement and range. They prefer ranged attacks, or melee attacks transferred through a machine. Because of their great understanding of position, movement and space (and some mechanical help) they can always strike their target accurately if given enough time to calculate and graph the position of the target.

Training in more than one Ingeniering school would lower total inventory points but make it possible to make different kinds of items to take to the arena. For instance, training in all three schools could allow someone to create robots or perhaps be a "jack of all trades". Training in both life and chemicals could allow one to create medicines to heal oneself and syringes to drain blood or insert viruses into living creatures. Training in life and geography could allow someone to know about and strike at pressure points of enemy creatures and conjurations to paralyze or SOMETIMES kill them instantly. Training in chemicals and geography could allow someone to manipulate their terrain, like dropping sticky substances to trap or slow down enemies or freezing the ground and equipping themselves with ice skates to give themselves fast and elusive, but at the cost of losing their move action for the round if they are successfully attacked.

Etc. Etc.
There's all sorts of different strategies different Ingeniers could use.

It would probably have to take place in a more "modern" era in Etheria, though.

What do you think?

I think this is fantastic. In fact it's a much more interesting idea then having superwarriors,  assassins, etc. This idea translates perfectly because it is in essence just technology as magic, they are perfect analogs with cosmetic and thematic differences. If you are familiar with the old Mage: The Ascension tabletop RPG, this idea is pretty well in line with the technocracy before the modern era pushed their technology to be more static and predictable. Look it up if you want some more fuel for ideas in this vein. I would look to the Sons of Ether in particular. It also fits well with the Alchemist mage concept that has been bandied about.

Moonglow

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Re: What would the warrior look like?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2013, 02:16:40 PM »
I'm not sure the idea is that different - and as I was going to reply to the first post - the source of the 'enchancement' shouldn't make that much difference to the game.  I was thinking AD&D gnome style, or Connecticut Yankee in King Arthurs court style, but taking a more base fighter and giving them less magical feeling enhancements. 

I mean thematically what's so magical about a Warlord?  The Warlord and the Forcemaster are probably the closest to this concept atm.  The Warlords spells are very much of a construction/engineer type mostly atm. 

I guess on this line - someone posted that it's Mage Wars only - Brian said their concept for the game was what if magic was real and you could throw around spells (paraphrasing) - well unless everyone in the world is a magic user, there's more depth to the story if there are competitive elements that aren't fully magical.  What's a neighbouriing baron do if the local wizard pisses him off?  Suck it up and appeal to the wizards council?  (which does seem possible).

Anyway, I was just curious about the concept - the rule set seems equally suited to a fantasy rumble as much as mage's only.

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Re: What would the warrior look like?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2013, 01:59:13 AM »
I would definitely say the Warlord and the Forcemaster are just as magical as any other mage. War is a school of magic all of its own, I don't think that one could say that any of the schools of magic are "less magical" than the other schools. Furthermore the Warlord is also trained in the earth school. The spells the Warlord casts ARE spells. Even the commands cost mana, it's not like he's just shouting them, since that wouldn't cost mana.

The Warlord is trained in the Earth school and is an Orc. That's pretty magical, I would say. Considering the whole blacksmith vibe he has, I'm fairly sure he doesn't just wear magical equipment, he MAKES it, which requires magic. A non-mage would not be able to create magical equipment, and certainly wouldn't be able to create multiple copies of the same outposts to put in the arena, or alternatively, having them all built up and placed in the arena almost instantly. A non-mage would also not be able to summon creatures without some sort of machine that could create a rift in space.

And the Forcemaster is definitely magical. She can move objects with her mind. Barring electromagnetic fingers, I have trouble thinking of a non-magical explanation of telekinesis, and it seems even less likely with the flavor of the Forcemaster, since she's basically like a jedi who uses "the Force," and the Force is supernatural, not biotechnological.

It already is a Fantasy rumble. Different types of creatures fight for different kinds of mages, so even though they're not fighting independently, there are still many non-magical creatures fighting in the arena. They're just not the main creature you play as.

I see a particular problem about having non-mage classes fighting on even footing with mages in this game without technology. In some games that have both mage and non-magical classes, the spells and attacks that a mage has tend to be more ranged or status oriented (or summon another creature to fight for them) than a non-magical class. Non-magical classes I think are more likely to have melee attacks or use equipment and items to attack. However, in Mage Wars anything I just listed could be done by a mage, so non-magical classes don't have any advantage against mage classes that I know of. But if better technology was introduced, I think they could fight on even footing--provided that the non-magical fighter understands and knows how to use their technology.

However, your idea of tremendously upping the stats of a creature that can't cast spells does have merit. I think it could work for an entirely different species: Giants. Or half-giants if a giant is too big for fighting in the arena. Some depictions of Giants depict them as having spell resistance (or at least in Harry Potter they do, I'm not sure about other stories in the fantasy genre). On top of that, they could have quite a bit of innate armor due to their thick hides (which is also the reason they have spell resistance).

I think being able to play as a Giant (or half-giant) could be quite fun.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 02:01:54 AM by Imaginator »
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Moonglow

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Re: What would the warrior look like?
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2013, 08:23:13 AM »
I kinda more meant thematically, Warlord doesn't scream magic in the same way that warlock, wizard, priestess does.... I mean if Warlock = magic, then you can have a seamstress mage or tinker mage (although thats probably already got its own archtype).  A warlord is a concept thats not intrinsically about magic.  Sure it can be imbued with magic (as it has been in the game), but by definition is more about command and aggression. So there isn't really much difference in a barbarian or knight being viable in a way that reflects special training, equipment, tools, discipline, or borrowed power.

Moonglow

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Re: What would the warrior look like?
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2013, 08:37:30 AM »
Actually, just thinking the main problem would probably be the difficulting integrating/finding synergies with other schools.  Although I guess the warrior should really align with the war school, which is just a form of Warlord really.... a Solo Warlord? for the times when you thought the warlord wasn't hard enough to play? :)

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Re: What would the warrior look like?
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2013, 09:45:20 AM »
I don't think "Priest" or "Priestess" screams magical any more than "Warlord". I think that those mage classes also have non-magical counterparts that don't fight in the arena. I mean, it seems a bit discriminatory if they only allow magic-users into the Asyran clergy, and even though magic can give a Warlord an advantage, so can money and other resources. A Warlord with magic can't do much if he doesn't have a clan or a territory, but a non-magical person would still find it impossible to kill him on their own without a really powerful weapon.

Also, while it probably isn't feasible to have a soloing war-trained character to play as, I and another forum member did think of two different mages a while back that could go with the whole martial artist thing--or at least one of them could.
A Yamabushi monk trained in holy and mind, and a Sōhei monk trained in Holy and War. The Yamabushi Monk would be the one that solos and uses chi; he's the solitary mountain ascetic. The Sōhei monk would be more of the holy conqueror type, he would use more creatures and be more aggressive then the warlord. I think he would be an attrition build like the priestess, but rather than turtling, he would probably summon waves of defensive soldiers to swarm the enemy while moving around assisting them. Guards and intercepts would be quite useful here I think.



Also, I had some more thoughts on the subject of Ingeniers.

Perhaps a non-magical Warlord with enough money in the distant future could invest in an Ingeniering education so he can build robots to fight for him along with his soldiers? It would be cool to be able to command fighter pilots. Piloting a plane could give a soldier fast and flying. If the plane is about to die, the pilot could eject themselves from it as a move action.

That probably means that there would have to be a non-magical version of the war school.

Also, since Ingeniers would not have their own channeling, they would have to have different kinds of costs. For instance, some objects could charge their own batteries using solar energy, some objects would require specific actions to be completed in order to place in the arena, some chemicals would require a bit of time to react with each other, some powerful attacks might have a delay and/or cost ammo, some objects would have a limited number of uses before they break, etc.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 09:47:18 AM by Imaginator »
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Sailor Vulcan

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Re: What would the warrior look like?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2013, 04:40:17 PM »
I just realized a better more organized way for Ingeniers to pay costs: they would start with some items in their inventory, and they have to use them in certain ways to generate "Battery" which is a catch all term for different kinds of non magical energy. Battery is measured in units called E-cells, which are represented by ready markers and action markers. Each Ingenier starts with only their action marker (2 E-cells), and one Gadget with its own Battery (1 E-cell) which starts out equipped to the Ingenier. If the Gadget is destroyed, they can replace it using items in their inventory. They can use an E-Cell to take an item out of their inventory and either equip it to themselves or place it in the arena. Items generate Battery when they are successfully combined into a new item, or from certain effects. An Ingenier would need to know how to generate battery and how to spend it.

An example of a gadget for a Life Ingenier could be a "needle and tube" which could be used for a "vaccine" strategy for making you or other creatures resistant to damage types that have already been dealt to them (maybe like armor) You could use an E-cell to place a vaccine in it, and another to inject the vaccine in yourself or another creature.
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