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Author Topic: Forcemaster - Grizzlies  (Read 15084 times)

somaddict

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Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« on: September 28, 2013, 12:47:44 PM »
Two grizzlies out on turn three. Force pull/push and teleport bears to swing with nine dice often. Focus down spawn points immediately. It is quite a steam roller so far. How can it be made better?

Mage: Forcemaster

Hurl Boulder x 3 (Fliers, finisher)

Steelclaw Grizzly x 2

Bear Strength x 2 (On bears)
Charm x 1 (Distract)
Poisoned Blood x 1 (Disrupt panic heals, Holy Mage)
Rhino Hide x 2 (On bears)
Healing Charm x 2 (Bears or Mage)
Enchantment Transfusion x 1
Jinx x 1
Mongoose Agility x 1
Regrowth x 1 (Bear or Mage)


Mage Wand x 2 (Sleep, Fury, Teleport, Push, Minor Heal, Dissolve, Dispel, Shift Enchant)
Dragonscale Hauberk x 1
Eagleclaw Boots x 2 (Disrupt FM, Wall cheese)


Dissolve x 2
Dispel x 2
Seeking Dispel x 1
Battle Fury x 2
Purify x 1
Heal x 1
Sleep x 1 (Fliers, Gorgon Archer, Teleport away)
Force Push x 2
Teleport x 3 (Move bears, enemy mage/creatures, isolate sleepers)
Minor Heal x 2
Shift Enchantment x 1
Whirling Strike x 1 (Deal with BM and Warlord spam)
Piercing Strike x 1 (Deal with Iron Golem, Brogan, etc.)


Suppression Orb (Deal with creature spam)


« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 12:57:25 PM by somaddict »

ringkichard

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Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2013, 04:49:39 PM »
Only time right now for a quick look, but I'd consider replacing Suppression Orb with Mordoc's Obelisk, for the combo with Mind Control. What's been giving it trouble?
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DeckBuilder

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Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2013, 05:34:10 PM »
Nice list, sir! I feel it's not really my place to comment as you are more experienced playing this book. However you have invited feedback.

My first question is why Forcemaster? When Earth Wizard or a Beastmaster could buy this book far cheaper with points to spare for other toys. Force Pull is cheap but less flexible than a Wand with Teleport. Although I do agree it's a nice synergetic innate ability to lure victims back into the Grizzly den for some Full-on Action.

I sense your reason is purely stylistic (like your refusal to stoop to "wall cheese" for a mere 2 points; 2x Boots demonstrates prevalence in your meta). Let's face it, she looks far cooler than the other mages (although Jokhtari may beg to differ).

I can think of many reasons to choose Forcemaster beyond her stylishness. These generally revolve around choosing more of her spells! Maybe your book was built to flummox your opponents, expecting Blocks and Force Field? Playing unpredictably out of type certainly has its advantages. It's rather ironic you seem to like playing mind games by playing a mind mage...

In my mind, the first change is find 6 spell points to upgrade Suppression Orb and Charm (it can attack Grizzlies or conjurations, guard, hinder) with Mordok's Obelisk and Mind Control, cast late as possible then feed it to Obelisk at Upkeep before paying for Control upkeep. Obelisk helps "crowd control" anyway. Control's 8 mana to remove a buffed Grizzly at a stroke? Good game! Once you cast Obelisk (just prior to casting Control), opponent knows he has to destroy it or risk more Control removal. Not only is removing his buffed threat usually game turning, afterwards forcing him to prioritise the Obelisk is incredible tempo advantage.

The next spell you should consider is Force Hold. You want the enemy mage to stay put for Full-on Action with your cuddly Super Bears? In a world without Stumble, revealing a well timed Force Hold is your friend. Pay 3 upkeeo and force 1 of his spell choices next turn (if he hasn't run out of Dispels). Force Hold is in school hence costs the same spell points as Tanglevine, so use it. The huge advantage it has over Tanglevine is the surprise instant speed of its reveal, disrupting the mage's plans. Trickster mage.

Next, if you do go down the Beastmaster's buffs route, consider leveraging synergy like Grizzly + Bear Strength + Hand of Bim Shalla + Vampirism + Battle Fury + Retaliate (time its use vs. a buffed up melee mage). Especially if your local meta does not play Purge Magic (some wizards run 1 copy). You should at least try to find a place for 1 Hand of Bim Shalla - it became Unique for a reason...

Talking of errata, more Battle Furies are more versatile better than situational commands. You have 2 Grizzlies on the field. Once buffed up, you can Fury them both once each for 2 rounds. A second Mongoose-elusive Bear?  It's about killing the enemy mage (not high value investments, often a distraction with a super-aggressively focused book like this). The rest is just vacuous style. Embrace the efficiency...

I approve of the lack of Blocks and your lack of Forcefield is daring: defence is for wusses? To make room for changes, action-intensive defensive elements can be removed. Which is better, 5 mana on a Healing Charm (3 dice once) or Regrowth (2 every upkeep) where 3 mana can be paid next turn before upkeep? Usually the latter. Even better, turn your incredible offence into healing, as detailed above. In the end, there are few books as aggressive. You dictate pace. Opponent must race or go defensive. Here, the best defence is offence, to put more pressure so that he will lose a damage race thus he must blink and play defensive. Spell points you spend as contingency for fear of losing become a self-fulfilling prophecy as you didn't spend them on spells that press the advantage. Many times, I may be losing the damage race (dice rolls) but I've worked out that in the crucial last round, I have initiative hence first action and yet another Battle Fury on my buffed Grizzly (or a double Hurl Boulder if all dead) to win by a whisker. With a book like this, you never blink. Ever.

Finally, please do not take anything I've written in a bad way. I always think answering these posts could always end up with bad feeling, just trying to be helpful and constructive, I can imagine "it is quite a steam roller". Though you mention your opponents play spawn points so it seems they have not adjusted their tempo to your faster aggression. I hope this has helped you refine your build, and good luck.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 03:48:48 AM by DeckBuilder »
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sIKE

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Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2013, 05:48:11 PM »
Only time right now for a quick look, but I'd consider replacing Suppression Orb with Mordoc's Obelisk, for the combo with Mind Control. What's been giving it trouble?
Orb is Mind school vs. Obelisk's arcane so two spellbook points I am not sure that is worth it in combo with Mind Control. You can always use Mind Control to make the creature move with the Orb....
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aquestrion

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Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2013, 08:45:03 PM »
Once u mindcontrol it u can choose not to pay the upkeep to kill it and the you dont pay for the upkeep of mindcontrol


If you move it with mind control don't you pay the cost

sIKE

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Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2013, 09:34:23 PM »
Got it....
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DeckBuilder

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Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2013, 03:19:12 AM »
Got it....

When you explained to me Thoughtspores casting multiple Battle Fury on Forcemaster (pumped up by multiple Hands), I felt similar! :)

It's more a question of the style you play her. I always found Spores too fragile an investment and preferred "enchantment control", using Force Hold, Forcefield, Mind Control etc to deplete limited Dispels. Obelisk-Control abuse is as second nature as Spore-Fury abuse was to you. Obviously that trick was so game imbalancing that they errata'd it. The errata to me meant I can't get 3 attacks with Bear Strength Lord of Fire or Super Grizzly. The true game-breaking reason never occurred to me as I don't play Forcemaster (detest unreliable Defence rolls). It's good to see there is far more depth to her than I gave her credit.
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somaddict

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Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2013, 02:16:43 PM »
Thanks for the feedback Deckbuilder. That's a lot of good input.

I do favor the Forcemaster because I have a crush on her, I'll admit it, yet the flexibility of the force pull is key here, I think. I can choose two spells every round knowing that I have force pull available as an option to deal with the unpredictable movement of the enemy mage. Force pull is also very cheap, and this book is mana intensive. That leads to another point. The upkeep spells are too expensive to maintain to keep this book aggressive. I want the opponent to move because then they aren't casting creatures, and the book is designed around dealing with the movement of the opponent. Ideally, I want them on the run and have enough mana free to cast a wand, fire off a boulder with a force pull, two boulders at once with a bear attack or two, etc. I've rolled 30 dice in a round before.

I actually didn't know about the Obelisk/Mind Control cheese. That is something to consider, but honestly I hope this gets nerfed somehow. I don't like it. I agree that another regrowth instead of heal enchants might be a good move, but I do like the unpredictability of the heals that misdirects aggro to the bears instead of my mage. The deflect is also a bonus for my mage that is frequently standing right in the middle of everything with little protection.

The biggest problem I've had so far are roll anomalies. If the opponent hits with a ton of crits on the bears early then I'm in a bad spot. I guess that's the breaks with any game though. Vampiric is probably the way to go here. I will make some adjustments and see how it goes.

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Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2013, 07:52:31 PM »
Thanks for the feedback Deckbuilder. That's a lot of good input.

I do favor the Forcemaster because I have a crush on her, I'll admit it, yet the flexibility of the force pull is key here, I think. I can choose two spells every round knowing that I have force pull available as an option to deal with the unpredictable movement of the enemy mage. Force pull is also very cheap, and this book is mana intensive.

You should really make room for a Force Ring then, it makes her innate Forcepull ability free and discounts a few other spells you have in your deck as well.

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Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2013, 07:41:10 AM »
Replace 2 hurl boulders with jet streams and surge waves. 2 jets and 2 surge is enough.
Replace 2 rhino hides with vampirism enchantments. your bears dont need more armor, they might need healing.
Enchantment transfusion? what is it for? Get more enchantments instead.
Whirling strike remive it. Get atleast 1 falcon prescision to handle defense units.
Get more Bear strengths - they will be dispelled.

Imo you dont have to worry about "creature spam" since you kill 2 low lvl creauters per turn with 2 grizzlys.
If one of your grizzlys die, then you probaly lost right there. Adding a third grizzly is too expensive, so consider adding a minor heal and a block or reverse attack. This along with vampirism enchantment should keep them up.
Another option is to add stuff like sacred ground - this works well with shift enchantment.

Force-grizzly is pretty nice currently.

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Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2013, 01:33:45 AM »
I played versus a nice gentleman called Shenful on OCTGN who used a similar build. Well, at least until my PC froze up.

Grizzly plus Galador for the ranged stun chance attack. Also a ring of force was great to fund those force pulls. He beat my own sorry attempt at a FM build, and played well. but fell fairly easily to a standard Air wizard build with Nec vamp, wizard tower and board control.

somaddict

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Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2013, 01:59:18 AM »
Replace 2 hurl boulders with jet streams and surge waves. 2 jets and 2 surge is enough.
Replace 2 rhino hides with vampirism enchantments. your bears dont need more armor, they might need healing.
Enchantment transfusion? what is it for? Get more enchantments instead.
Whirling strike remive it. Get atleast 1 falcon prescision to handle defense units.
Get more Bear strengths - they will be dispelled.

Imo you dont have to worry about "creature spam" since you kill 2 low lvl creauters per turn with 2 grizzlys.
If one of your grizzlys die, then you probaly lost right there. Adding a third grizzly is too expensive, so consider adding a minor heal and a block or reverse attack. This along with vampirism enchantment should keep them up.
Another option is to add stuff like sacred ground - this works well with shift enchantment.

Force-grizzly is pretty nice currently.

The boulders are for concentrated damage. Jets are surge are nice, especially surge, but that is utility. I usually only want to cast them on a roadblock or to finish. I run four battle furies now to deal with getting around guards mostly. Losing a grizzly is real bad. I agree that rhino hides are useless, except for 1 on my mage. That helps with wall cheese, and I can get rid of boots. Two vampiric enchants are  must, and almost better than bear strength to cast first.

Ultimately, the better players ignore the grizzlies and go for the throat. That is the only time I have lost other than losing a grizzly with lots of lucky crits.

I have succumbed to the obelisk/mind control combo. It deals with certain things so well.

Enchantment transfusion is for the jinx hack. You put a jinx and transfusion on a grizzly and stop something particularly game changing/ending. It's a jinx on deck.

The Galador strategy looks mean. Will try it out. That one extra mana on turn three is actually just what I've been needing to get a Hand temple out.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 01:01:38 AM by somaddict »

somaddict

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Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2013, 05:16:10 AM »
I changed things up a bit. Here's two Grizzlies and a Galador at the end of turn 5, I believe...



The Tegu had just been stunned. I felt sympathy. I didn't have trouble making room for Galador. Turn 1 was Grizzly and Bear Strength. Turn 2 was double move and Hand. Turn 3 was Galador. Turn 4 was Force Ring and Force Pull. Turn 5 was Grizzly #2. Turn 6 was Battle Fury with revealed Bear Strength and +1 melee from Hand. Turn 7 was gg. He was a newer player, but still.

I took a bit of all the advice for the book.


« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 05:18:56 AM by somaddict »

Fentum

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Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2013, 12:11:20 PM »
I have been running a fairly similar build, but use one grizzly, Galador and Brogan. More flexible vs various threats. Brogan reall helps vs FM.

Staying with your book, you might want a mongoose agility to avoid guards.

ringkichard

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Re: Forcemaster - Grizzlies
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2013, 09:02:40 PM »
I have fantasies of giving Brogan Bear Strength and Hand of Bim-Shalla and 1 shotting a Wizard's tower.
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