July 13, 2020, 05:13:25 PM

Author Topic: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand  (Read 3572 times)

Lotacon

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Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« on: October 08, 2013, 02:30:11 PM »
Maybe old questions...
1# Can I reveal a enfeeble when the creature has just taken a move action to end its turn?
2# When a creature become the target of quicksand,I reveal a eaglewing on it,what will happen?

My friends and I argued about these questions lol,need some help!

sIKE

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Re: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2013, 02:48:46 PM »
The creature gains the Restrained trait and can not gain the Flying trait.
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Kharhaz

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Re: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2013, 03:19:27 PM »

1# Can I reveal a enfeeble when the creature has just taken a move action to end its turn?


Yes you can reveal after it takes it move action, but it will not trigger the slow effect. You may reveal "immediately after a creature completes its move action, but before it takes a quick action." However the slow ability only triggers when the target takes a move action, which it already did that round.




2# When a creature become the target of quicksand,I reveal a eaglewing on it,what will happen?


Okay so lets go through the steps here:

1. Cast spell
You target goblin (with hidden eagle wings) with a quicksand. Pay costs and all that.

2. Counter spell step:
The normally this phase is reserved for nullifies, etc. but your opponent flips eagle wings, which gives the creature flying, immediately. Because this is before the spell resolves (step 3) it does not have restrained yet. This causes the creature to immediately become a non valid target for the quicksand and quicksand is destroyed before it is ever resolved.


DeckBuilder

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Re: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2013, 05:11:10 PM »
SLOW & FAST

I did not realise Slow is triggered when it is moved (hence Enfeeble needs to be revealed when it is activated before moved).
How does this apply with regards to Fast?

Example:
Player A's Lord of Fire has 2 hidden enchants (A's Cheetah Speed, B's Enfeeble) and is 2 zones away from Player B's mage (6 life left).
Player A has initiative and his first action is to activate Lord of Fire.
Player B has opportunity to reveal Enfeeble but Lord of Fire is not within melee reach so does not (he has other mana plans).
Player A moves Lord of Fire 1 zone.
Can he now reveal Cheetah Speed to gain another Move of 1 zone?
If he can, does this give Player B another reveal Enfeeble opportunity (to cancel his Fast)?

FLYING & RESTRAIN

In the second example, after opponent reveals Eagle Wings, I then reveal Force Hold in the same Counter spell step. What happens?
I know this unlikely (well. playing Quicksand Lottery anyway!) but there are more common examples.
 I appreciate Mage Wars is doing its best to avoid complex timing rules...

We all use Force Hold (when activated,  before move) as an incredibly cheap timed Stumble (with a pay upkeep to force Dispel option).
We also use it to counter attacks on flyers e.g. Vampiress pays 1 to fly over my Wall of Thorns and attack my Falcon Pet.
In Avoid Attacks phase, I reveal Force Hold on the Vampiress to lure her move there but negate the attack.

Player A's Hydra declares a full action triple strike attack on a Player's B Timber Wolf Pet with 2 hidden enchants (1 from each player).
In Avoid Attack phase, Player B reveals Eagle Wings on his Pet to claim he negates attack as an illegal target.
In response, Player A reveals Force Hold.
Can Player A claim he has negated the negating? Does the whole "stack" need to be resolved like in Magic?

BETWEEN ACTIONS

What constitutes "between actions" (e.g. Charm, Mind Control).
I have interpreted it to mean "not during an action's steps" rather than the literal between 2 actions in the same turn.

So, in the Lord of Fire example above, if Player B had a hidden Charm on him, could he simply reveal the Charm when Lord of Fire is activated (before taking any actions), even though this will be the first action of the round?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 05:58:27 PM by DeckBuilder »
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aquestrion

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Re: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2013, 05:18:44 PM »
FAST also works at the beginning of the first move action

Force hold kicks first and then the eagle wings give him flying enchant (which its restrained and cannot gain flying)
But he also gets the quicksand conjuration attacched. So all three attatched but no flying

You cannot gain flying during an attack

No he must reveal it before his activation... at the end of his creatures activation...kinda like a qc marker

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Re: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2013, 05:31:47 PM »
You cannot gain flying during an attack

Or lose Flying during an Attack either. I just read it (p15), we've missed it, we've been playing slightly wrong all this time.
We simply have to declare the reveal just before the attack is declared and not during Avoid Attacks step.
Oh well, this makes Force Hold and Eagle Wings not quite as good (as there may be another target to attack)

I don't get how you can confidently say Fast must be declared at the start of its first move action.
Reading the Codex and Fast on p14, it is not like Slow which is crystal clear that the opportunity is lost once the move is executed.

Why does Force Hold kick in first? Some sort of reverse stack rule?

I assume your last sentence was related to "Between Actions" question?
So only before or after one of your own actions can you reveal Charm or Mind Control?
QC marker works like Wizard's Tower ready marker action but both spells say "between Action Phases" which is very different wording.

Are these official rulings that I've missed in the plethora of rules clarifications (yet to be consolidated)?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 05:42:42 PM by DeckBuilder »
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Shad0w

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Re: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2013, 05:41:06 PM »
Thanks all for doing the research I am on late nights for 2 weeks. I just got back from lunch and it is 6:40pm here
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DeckBuilder

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Re: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2013, 05:47:32 PM »
Thanks all for doing the research I am on late nights for 2 weeks. I just got back from lunch and it is 6:40pm here

Wasn't aimed at you, Shad0w. There's no urgency.

More at Karhaz who opened my eyes about the correct timining window to reveal Enfeeble.
Then Aquestrion showed me we need to avoid the attack via Flying or Restrain before the Attack is declared.

Using embedded "instants" which are what enchantments are (some persistent auras, some one-off triggers) is a great mechanic and I love it.

But I am surprised that these timing rules have not surfaced. Maybe I'm missing something and there's no issue.

Anyway, just intrigued. I've learnt 2 new things from this thread already.

(PS. lunch is for wimps, even at 6.40pm. I;m just having my supper at 11.50pm over here...)
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aquestrion

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Re: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2013, 06:04:04 PM »
Well i'm confused as to the timing of the force hold.... if you let the eagle wings resolve then it gains flying before the quicksand can resolve then the quick sand would be invalid and burnt. Then you reveal the force hold then the creature still has flying card attached but it loses and cannot gain flying as part of restrained ability.  is this the correct answer?


I'm not part of AW OR OFFICIALLY A RULES LAWYER. I'M ALMOST ALWAYS WRONG. But by putting what i would say as a ruling out there it then baits real moderators to correct me....sneaky sneaky.

As far as the fast trait let me just say that i'm probably wrong. But it does not make since that slow works one way but fast is compleately different. Oh wait this is mage wars after all 1000 of rulings all coinciding with each other in a way that it takes hours of research to figure them out

Yes between saying I'm going to activate this creature and and all the actions that creature takes you cannot use charm. But like ready marker or qc you can use it before or after a creatures activation.... if my opponet uses a mage in stead or the creature that is FD charm as soon as he is done with mage actions I can reveal charm even if he is about to qc or use a wizards tower.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 06:07:36 PM by aquestrion »

aquestrion

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Re: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2013, 06:08:44 PM »
That involves any creatures activation his or yours.

lettucemode

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Re: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2013, 10:16:03 PM »
SLOW & FAST

I did not realise Slow is triggered when it is moved (hence Enfeeble needs to be revealed when it is activated before moved).
How does this apply with regards to Fast?

Example:
Player A's Lord of Fire has 2 hidden enchants (A's Cheetah Speed, B's Enfeeble) and is 2 zones away from Player B's mage (6 life left).
Player A has initiative and his first action is to activate Lord of Fire.
Player B has opportunity to reveal Enfeeble but Lord of Fire is not within melee reach so does not (he has other mana plans).
Player A moves Lord of Fire 1 zone.
Can he now reveal Cheetah Speed to gain another Move of 1 zone?
If he can, does this give Player B another reveal Enfeeble opportunity (to cancel his Fast)?

Page 19 of the rulebook, under "When can you reveal?" says this: You cannot interrupt an event to reveal an enchantment. Example: you cannot reveal an enchantment on a creature in the middle of its Move Action...

So you would not be able to reveal Cheetah Speed on your Lord of Fire until after it had finished moving. So to get the benefit from it on that turn you must reveal it as you activate the LoF.

Quote
FLYING & RESTRAIN

In the second example, after opponent reveals Eagle Wings, I then reveal Force Hold in the same Counter spell step. What happens?
I know this unlikely (well. playing Quicksand Lottery anyway!) but there are more common examples.
 I appreciate Mage Wars is doing its best to avoid complex timing rules...

We all use Force Hold (when activated,  before move) as an incredibly cheap timed Stumble (with a pay upkeep to force Dispel option).
We also use it to counter attacks on flyers e.g. Vampiress pays 1 to fly over my Wall of Thorns and attack my Falcon Pet.
In Avoid Attacks phase, I reveal Force Hold on the Vampiress to lure her move there but negate the attack.

Seems fine to me.

Quote

Player A's Hydra declares a full action triple strike attack on a Player's B Timber Wolf Pet with 2 hidden enchants (1 from each player).
In Avoid Attack phase, Player B reveals Eagle Wings on his Pet to claim he negates attack as an illegal target.
In response, Player A reveals Force Hold.
Can Player A claim he has negated the negating? Does the whole "stack" need to be resolved like in Magic?

The rule is that the effect with the earliest timestamp takes precedence. However the Restrained trait cancels out flying. So: the creature would gain flying from Eagle Wings, then immediately lose it due to Force Hold. So it would still be a legal target for the attack.

Quote
BETWEEN ACTIONS

What constitutes "between actions" (e.g. Charm, Mind Control).
I have interpreted it to mean "not during an action's steps" rather than the literal between 2 actions in the same turn.

So, in the Lord of Fire example above, if Player B had a hidden Charm on him, could he simply reveal the Charm when Lord of Fire is activated (before taking any actions), even though this will be the first action of the round?

Page 8 of the rulebook describes action phases. "During an action phase, you will activate and use one creature that you control. Then your opponent takes an action phase with one of his creatures, then you take another, and so on." So basically, Charm and Mind Control are saying that you cannot reveal them during any creature's turn, for example, in response to having an attack declared against you.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 10:22:56 PM by lettucemode »

aquestrion

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Re: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2013, 11:04:39 PM »
The timber wolf cannot gain flying as soon as the attack sequence starts because creatures cannot gain flying during an attack sequence. Revealing the enchantment does nothing until after the attack sequence ends

Kharhaz

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Re: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2013, 11:25:56 PM »
So let me add one thing to flip fest 2013.

PG. 18 - 19 Rulebook v 2.0

"If both players want to reveal an enchantment at the same time, the player with the initiative goes first. He may reveal as many enchantments as he wants, one at a time, resolving each one before revealing the next."

So lets break down the Hydra and the Wolf.

Hydra activates and declares an attack on the wolf. (Step #1)

So after step 1 wolf player says "I am going to reveal eagle wings". However, still before step 2, in an attempt to prevent it the flying the other player says "I am revealing force hold".

This creates the "at same time" condition (since both are occurring before step 2) and the player with initiative gets to reveal his enchantment first, and more importantly resolve it. I know that does not matter as flying first or second here still gets restrained (and removes the flying) but it is important to understand that enchantment distinction from the conjuration quicksand question earlier.

Also, even if the target of the attack gains flying, it would not prevent the hydra from hitting the wolf as a creature can not gain flying during an attack, that goes for any critter not just the creature attacking. So the wolf would fly after the attack.

****************************************************************************************

Also note that revealing is not casting

There are no "counter steps" to revealing. Enchantments resolved during the same step, or in between steps, are resolved as per the rule above.

Hope that helps some of the finer points of the matrix

Lotacon

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Re: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2013, 06:45:40 AM »
wow thank you everybody!
So that completely answered my question!:D
And...one more thing about quicksand:
Can I teleport the creature that is attached by quicksand?If the creature can be teleported,will the quicksand being  teleported  together and still attached to it?

Kharhaz

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Re: Need help about enfeeble and quicksand
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2013, 07:07:34 AM »
wow thank you everybody!
So that completely answered my question!:D
And...one more thing about quicksand:
Can I teleport the creature that is attached by quicksand?If the creature can be teleported,will the quicksand being  teleported  together and still attached to it?

Teleporting creatures with conjurations destroys the conjurations attached, even if they are teleported to the same zone they are in.