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Author Topic: Battle Fury (retarget?)  (Read 9146 times)

Wildhorn

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2013, 12:41:35 AM »
Quote from: Apethemin
Then we have a new question on our hands as to whether stun just prevents you from initiating an action or if it can stop an action that is already in progress. I could be wrong about this, but I believe it would stop the Battle Fury, and here's why. During Step 1: Declare Attack, you must check to see if you can legally attack your target with the Battle Fury attack, and I would assume the answer to that question is "no" because you are stunned.


If we read the rules carefully, we can conclude that it would not stop an action already in progress.

Battle Fury text:
Quote
"The next time this round the target creature makes a melee attack, if that attack is not a Counterstrike, at the end of that attack action it may immediately make another quick action melee attack. This extra attack counts as part of the same attack action. Only one Battle Fury spell may be cast per round on the same creature."

Even if Battle Fury start from step 1 to through step 8, it is part of the same action.

Stun makes creature Incapacited.

Incapiced text:
Quote
"An Incapacitated creature cannot take any actions, including moving,
attacking, guarding, casting spells, or counterstriking."

That's the interesting part. Cannot take any actions, but the creature is not taking an action, it is already in its attack action since Battle Fury extra attack is part of the same action.

Now, the Step 1 text (and where you are wrong about being legally able to attack the target):

Quote
"Announce which attack you are using. If your creature has
more than one attack, represented by more than one “attack
bars” on its card, you must choose only one attack to use.
You must choose an attack whose action icon matches the
type of action you are taking (for example, a full action icon
will require the creature to use a full action to make that
attack).
Then, announce what target you are attacking. You must
choose a legal target for your attack:
If you are making a melee attack, the target must be in the
same zone as the attacker. If there are enemy guards in the
zone, you must choose one of the guards to attack (see
“Guarding” on page 29).
If you are making a ranged attack, the target must be in range
of the attack. A ranged attack ignores guards. All ranged
attacks have a minimum and a maximum range. The target
must be in a zone that falls within that range (see “Counting
Distances” on page 10). Also, a ranged attack must make sure
it has a clear LoS (line of sight) - see “Line of Sight” on page
17. All ranged attacks ignore steps 6 and 7.
Pay Any Required Costs
Sometimes you will have to pay an additional cost in order
to make an attack. For example, an enchantment may force
you to pay mana before your creature can attack.
You must pay these costs during the Declare Attack step, or
the attack is canceled.
If you discover that you cannot legally attack your target
during this step, you may cancel the attack and choose a
different target, or even take a completely different action.
Remember: If a Flying creature attacks a non-Flying object,
it loses Flying until the end of the attack. See “Flying” on
page 15.
If later during the attack you discover that your target is no
longer legal (for example, it has been Pushed or Teleported
out of range), the attack is canceled.
If the attacker is Dazed, at the end of the Declare Attack Step
he must roll to see if his attack misses. If it misses, skip to
Step 5: Additional Strikes. See “Daze” in the Codex."

Nowhere in Step 1 it require you to be not-Incapacited. The legality of a target is not dependant of attacker's condition.



And for damage barrier/counterstrike, it all depends if you consider "attack" and "strike" to be the same thing or not. Personally, I would allow damager barrier/counterstrike to only hit once.


I think the intention behind Battle Fury was to grant the next attack equivalent of "Sweeping or Doublestrike", but they wanted to allow it on Full Action attack too without allowing 2 Full Action attack and they could not word it like "grant next melee attack either Sweeping or Doublestrike" because if the attack was already DoubleStrike, they wanted it to get a 3rd strike.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 12:51:42 AM by Wildhorn »

diceman

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2013, 01:17:40 AM »
But if you use BATTLE FURY as a kind of Sweeping Action, you absolutely have to check again, if you can legally attack your new opponent. Look up "Sweeping" in the Codex:

Quote
The second attack occurs at the end of the attack sequence from the first attack. Start a new attack sequence beginning with the Declare Attack Step.

And another attack should just not be possible, if you have been stunned. This totally goes against the propagated "intuitiveness" of the game. So then we could maybe argue, that another strike against the same target would be possible, while switching targets would be illegal (when you've been stunned). Just my 2 cents. ;)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 01:21:34 AM by diceman »

Wildhorn

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2013, 01:41:13 AM »
But if you use BATTLE FURY as a kind of Sweeping Action, you absolutely have to check again, if you can legally attack your new opponent. Look up "Sweeping" in the Codex:

Quote
The second attack occurs at the end of the attack sequence from the first attack. Start a new attack sequence beginning with the Declare Attack Step.

And another attack should just not be possible, if you have been stunned. This totally goes against the propagated "intuitiveness" of the game. So then we could maybe argue, that another strike against the same target would be possible, while switching targets would be illegal (when you've been stunned). Just my 2 cents. ;)

No you do not. It is another attack sequence, but it is not another ACTION, which is what Incapacited prevent. Incapacited prevent to take an action, it doesnt prevent it to continue.

Zuberi

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2013, 03:51:26 AM »
Wildhorn, I respect your opinion and applaud the work you have done to support it. Unfortunately, I believe you have failed at proving your point. I still believe it could be interpreted either way and that we need an official answer on the matter.

Quote from: Wildhorn
The legality of a target is not dependant of attacker's condition.

This statement is just plain false. There are several conditions that affect legality. For example, Stuck makes it illegal for a flying creature to target another flying creature. Taunt makes it illegal to target any creature other than the one that taunted you. Finally, Stun makes it illegal to attack anything at all. For the first two conditions, we can find explicit rulings that prevent them from affecting an action in progress. The wording on Stun and Incapacitate is not as clear.

Quote
An Incapacitated creature cannot take any actions, including moving, attacking, guarding, casting spells, or counterstriking.

This statement COULD be interpreted to mean you can not initiate such actions. It could also be interpreted more broadly to mean such actions are simply illegal to perform. The latter interpretation allows for the condition to impact an action already in progress.

And we still have the issue of whether a second Damage Barrier and Counterstrike attack can be made against the attacker. Even Laddinfance has stated he is unsure about this.

Conclusion: We need some clarification from Arcane Wonders.

Wildhorn

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2013, 07:26:06 AM »
Wildhorn, I respect your opinion and applaud the work you have done to support it. Unfortunately, I believe you have failed at proving your point. I still believe it could be interpreted either way and that we need an official answer on the matter.

Quote from: Wildhorn
The legality of a target is not dependant of attacker's condition.

This statement is just plain false. There are several conditions that affect legality. For example, Stuck makes it illegal for a flying creature to target another flying creature. Taunt makes it illegal to target any creature other than the one that taunted you. Finally, Stun makes it illegal to attack anything at all. For the first two conditions, we can find explicit rulings that prevent them from affecting an action in progress. The wording on Stun and Incapacitate is not as clear.

I didn't choose properly my wording. I should have wrote that attacker being stunned doesnt affect legality in targetting. Stuck and taunt affect targets that are allowed. Stun doesnt do that. So even stunned, you can target something you would normally be able to.

Quote
Quote
An Incapacitated creature cannot take any actions, including moving, attacking, guarding, casting spells, or counterstriking.

This statement COULD be interpreted to mean you can not initiate such actions. It could also be interpreted more broadly to mean such actions are simply illegal to perform. The latter interpretation allows for the condition to impact an action already in progress.

Stun effectivly prevent to initiate attack action. With Battle Fury, if you read the text on the card, you don't initiate an attack action, it just continue the same attack action. What it does is it grant another melee attack, not an attack action. It is very clear.

Because if we take it the way you want to imply it, then stun would prevent a creature to be Force Pushed since it would be illegal for it to move.

Quote
And we still have the issue of whether a second Damage Barrier and Counterstrike attack can be made against the attacker. Even Laddinfance has stated he is unsure about this.

If we follow rules, DB and CS only affect a creature once. Doesnt matter if it pass by the step again. To me its very clear too.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 07:38:08 AM by Wildhorn »

diceman

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2013, 10:38:23 AM »
Page 23:
Quote
If later during the attack you discover that your target is no longer legal (for example, it has been Pushed or Teleported out of range), the attack is canceled.

In my opinion this is the only logical, most intuitive interpretation. Game-Mechanics and rules aside, if you just step back for a second and look at the situation: you are STUNNED! How can you make another attack?

And we still have the issue of whether a second Damage Barrier and Counterstrike attack can be made against the attacker. Even Laddinfance has stated he is unsure about this.

I'm not as good with words with you, but this situation is also pretty clear to me. If you look at the rules:
Quote
A damage barrier can attack each attacker once each round. If an attacker makes multiple strikes, the damage barrier only gets to attack once after all the attacks are complete.
I think it's pretty clear: Every creature has exactly 1 chance to make 1 Damage Barrier-Attack against each Attacker. So if it is being attacked again by another creature in the same round, of course the Damage Barrier would strike. But not with the same creature, who's just using BATTLE FURY. Because it's the same attacker. We also have to take in account, that the main reason for the extensive wording on the card was to to make clear, that Melee+1-Traits may not apply more than once during one Attack-Sequence. Everything else is just what we may read into it, to prove our points in a moot discussion.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 04:15:33 PM by diceman »

Zuberi

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2013, 06:01:58 PM »
Quote from: Wildhorn
Stun effectivly prevent to initiate attack action.

It could be interpreted that way, but that's not the only interpretation as I pointed out. You could also read it as being unable to perform the action at all.

Quote from: Wildhorn
Because if we take it the way you want to imply it, then stun would prevent a creature to be Force Pushed since it would be illegal for it to move.

A Push is different from a Move is different from a Teleport. Three completely different beasts which have nothing to do with one another. For example, Unmovable prevents you from Pushing a target, but the target is still able to Move. Meanwhile, Restrained prevents an object from Moving but you are still able to Push it.

Your interpretation is perfectly valid, Wildhorn, but it is not the only interpretation possible with the way the rules are currently written.

Quote from: Wildhorn
If we follow rules, DB and CS only affect a creature once. Doesnt matter if it pass by the step again. To me its very clear too.

I thought the rules on Damage Barrier was very clear as well (I think Counterstrike is a little less clear) but Laddinfance threw a monkey wrench into that. He is an official representative of Arcane Wonders and he has stated that he believes both of those would get a second attack, contrary to our reading of the rules. He has also stated that he is no longer certain if that is indeed the case though, so we are now waiting for confirmation what the official answer is.

Wildhorn

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2013, 09:48:27 AM »
Quote from: Wildhorn
Stun effectivly prevent to initiate attack action.

It could be interpreted that way, but that's not the only interpretation as I pointed out. You could also read it as being unable to perform the action at all.

I do not interpret anything. I am just reading what is written black on white... Err scroll-colored. Incapacited prevent to take attack action. In the case of Battle Fury we do not take an attack action, we are just continuing the one that as already been taken.

Quote
Quote from: Wildhorn
Because if we take it the way you want to imply it, then stun would prevent a creature to be Force Pushed since it would be illegal for it to move.

A Push is different from a Move is different from a Teleport. Three completely different beasts which have nothing to do with one another. For example, Unmovable prevents you from Pushing a target, but the target is still able to Move. Meanwhile, Restrained prevents an object from Moving but you are still able to Push it.

I know all that. I was just saying that if you claim that Incapacitate make all the thing it list illegal, then the stunned creature can't be moved because Push is a move. NOT a Move Action but still a move. Just like Battle Fury makes you do another attack NOT an Attack Action.

Zuberi

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2013, 12:30:33 PM »
Quote from: Wildhorn
I do not interpret anything. I am just reading what is written black on white... Err scroll-colored.

The act of reading is the act of interpreting. Otherwise words would just be pictures of squiggly lines. The word "take" has many interpretations, or definitions if you prefer that terminology. Dictionary.com lists 96 definitions for the word "take" (just counting it as a verb, not a noun). Looking over that list, you will see that your answer is not the only one. Both of the answers I have provided are indeed valid.

Quote from: Wildhorn
In the case of Battle Fury we do not take an attack action, we are just continuing the one that as already been taken.

Again that depends on your definition of take. You could be considered to still be in the process of taking that action, rather than having already taken it.

Quote from: Wildhorn
I know all that. I was just saying that if you claim that Incapacitate make all the thing it list illegal, then the stunned creature can't be moved because Push is a move. NOT a Move Action but still a move

Reread the codex for Incapacitate. It does not say you can not be moved, it says you can not take a move action. As you have admitted, a Push is not a move action.

Quote from: Wildhorn
Just like Battle Fury makes you do another attack NOT an Attack Action.

Nobody is claiming that Battle Fury lets you take another attack action. We are claiming that you are still in the process of taking an attack action under some definitions of the word take. If you find yourself unable to take an attack action while you are in the middle of taking one, it is a reasonable conclusion that you can not finish your attempt to take said action.

Wildhorn

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2013, 05:08:08 PM »
The new official rule/faq:

Quote
When a creature makes an attack, it normally ends its Action Phase after that attack. Conditions that are normally processed or removed at the end of an Action Phase, such as Stun and Daze, are not processed or removed if they were just received from a Damage Barrier or Counterstrike attack. In this manner they have an opportunity to affect the creature for an entire Action Phase (the next time it acts again).

Stun is not processed.

Zuberi

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2013, 08:04:25 PM »
I am a little disappointed that the update to the FAQ did not resolve the questions within this thread.

Quote from: FAQ
When a creature makes an attack, it normally ends its Action Phase after that attack. Conditions that are normally processed or removed at the end of an Action Phase, such as Stun and Daze, are not processed or removed if they were just received from a Damage Barrier or Counterstrike attack.
Quote from: Wildhorn
Stun is not processed.

And? All it is saying is that Stun is not removed, changed, or affected in any way by the action phase ending if it was just applied during that action. We already knew that.

Quote from: FAQ
a wall attack could Stun or Restrain a creature during its attack, and the creature would be unable to move and would not complete its move into the new zone.

This statement tells us that Stun actually can affect an action already in progress. If anything, I'd say this supports the interpretation that the Battle Fury attack (and Sweeping attacks) would not be able to take place if you became stunned in the middle of your action. However, I'm still not convinced that is in fact correct. I would like a more explicit answer.

Quote from: FAQ
The extra attack follows all the steps of an attack (including the Counterstrike and Damage Barrier steps).

We already knew that it followed these steps. Our question was whether or not it was a legal target for the same Damage Barrier or Counterstrike to target it a second time. If you use Battle Fury to attack a second, different target, then it is clear that you would be subject to Damage Barriers and Counterstrikes form the additional target, but if you use it to attack the same target an extra time, the wording on those steps seems to indicate you are no longer a valid target.

Shad0w

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2013, 12:46:10 PM »
If the rules team has time this week we will look into this.

Laddin send out an email please.
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jacksmack

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2013, 05:32:13 AM »
In the newly released FAQ its specified that Adramelach cannot sweep a flying and a non-flying with his Full Round attack.

It must be either Flying-Flying  or  non-flying-non-flying.

How is it with Battle Fury? must it then be flying-flying-flying / flying-flying   OR  non-flying-non-flying-non-flying / non-flying-non-flying
(depending on wether he uses Full round attack + QC or QC + QC)

Im really starting to hate the errate made to this card...

Zuberi

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2013, 06:44:10 AM »
Regardless of how many attacks you make or what gives you the ability to make multiple attacks, your attacks have to either all be against flying creatures or all against non-flying creatures. This is because it depends on what trait your creature has.

Quote from: FAQ page 23
A creature can not gain or lose the Flying trait in the middle of an attack action.
Quote from: Rulebook v2.0 page 15
If a Flying creature makes a melee attack against a non-Flying creature, it loses the Flying trait

Therefore, if your first attack is against a flying creature, none of your additional attacks can be against non-flying creatures because you can not give up the flying trait to land and hit them. If your first attack is against a non-flying creature, none of your additional attacks can be against flying creatures because you no longer have the flying trait until the end of the attack.

Laddinfance

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Re: Battle Fury (retarget?)
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2013, 10:00:51 AM »
What about battle fury on someone with a Lash of Hellfire? Does reach change this?