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Author Topic: New Initiative Rules and You!  (Read 7065 times)

ChimpZilla

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New Initiative Rules and You!
« on: December 04, 2013, 11:15:16 AM »
So while wading in the cluster**** of purple in the new Mage Wars Rules and Codex Supplement, I came across this gem:

Quote
Initative
If you win the initiative roll on the first turn of the game, you may choose to allow the other player to have the intiative first.

Do you punt tempo or turn position?

Discuss.

Zuberi

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Re: New Initiative Rules and You!
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2013, 11:43:43 AM »
I would pass initiative most of the time. I'd rather go second so I have an opportunity to read my opponent's play and adapt my strategy to combat it. Of course, you are still preparing your spells without any information, which doesn't give you a lot of wiggle room to use to adapt, but I'd rather take advantage of the little wiggle room and the little information that I can muster than go in completely blind. Going first is acting blindly.

Sometimes I would want to go first if I thought it gave me an advantage that was worth going blind. Such as in a mirror match if I wanted to ensure I could get out a legendary creature that my opponent is likely to have. But I think that would be the exception for me rather than the rule.

Wildhorn

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Re: New Initiative Rules and You!
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2013, 12:10:30 PM »
I would go first. Anyway, first turn it rarely matter what your opponent does, neither of you can interac with eacj others. I prefer to be first on second round, now knowing where my opponentnis going and what he casted first round.

In a mirror match, it depends of the mana cost of legendary that usually get cast in first few rounds. Under 20 mana, I want to go first to cast it first and deny opponent ability to cast it. Over 20 mana, I want to go second for same reason.

The Dude

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Re: New Initiative Rules and You!
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2013, 12:14:06 PM »
I begged, bitched, moaned, and screamed for this rule to be introduced. I'M SUCH A PROUD FATHER.


The actual intent of this rule was to try to push people to try more interesting set ups. If you were going second, your opponent could not respond to what you are doing until the next round, so you could do some pretty strange things, and get away with them. As well, you could choose to go second if you ware playing a more reactive book that needs to find out what the opponent is doing in order to crush his resources.

I don't know, there was so much I had thought of, and it was so long ago. I'm happy to see a rule I "thought" of to finally be introduced. I say that in quotes, because while there were many people who thought of it, and wanted it, I was one of the few who actually kissed Brian's feet in exchange for this rule to take effect. I'm still cleaning my mouth out.


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Wildhorn

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Re: New Initiative Rules and You!
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2013, 01:56:43 PM »
I begged, bitched, moaned, and screamed for this rule to be introduced. I'M SUCH A PROUD FATHER.


The actual intent of this rule was to try to push people to try more interesting set ups. If you were going second, your opponent could not respond to what you are doing until the next round, so you could do some pretty strange things, and get away with them. As well, you could choose to go second if you ware playing a more reactive book that needs to find out what the opponent is doing in order to crush his resources.

I don't know, there was so much I had thought of, and it was so long ago. I'm happy to see a rule I "thought" of to finally be introduced. I say that in quotes, because while there were many people who thought of it, and wanted it, I was one of the few who actually kissed Brian's feet in exchange for this rule to take effect. I'm still cleaning my mouth out.


Duder.

Personally, I always played initiative that way. Winner decides.

ringkichard

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Re: New Initiative Rules and You!
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2013, 03:49:05 PM »
I'm not a fan of this change, but it's a small thing to me, so I'm happy His Dudeship got his holiday rule baby.

The real consideration to me on this one is Turn 3 agro. The player who goes first on turn 1 goes first on turn 3, and is in the better position to teleport something, which can often win the game on the spot.

Of course, against Gate Wizard (Watergate et. al.), you probably want to go first just to rob them of the 1 free mana from your quick cast. Lots to consider.
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Re: New Initiative Rules and You!
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 04:20:03 PM »
And that was the whole point. We want to give decisions as much as we can. I like to think of us players as churning the yarn of fate, deciding by chance and by strategy, who shall live, and who shall die. OR, a battle between the minds of gods, who singlehandly decide the fates of their people. Or, from a more gentle point of view, telling the story of a battle faught long and hard, becoming our own Homers. So, to decide who goes first by the hands of chance?


Mechanically, it also urges books to be both reactive and proactive, depending on the initiative and aggression. This subtle choice will change a lot of openings for a lot of books, making the slightly more apt to prepare an arcane ring, dispel for that cheetah speed. But, that's not set in stone, so only time can decide what people will do with this curious and effective amendment.
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DeckBuilder

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Re: New Initiative Rules and You!
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2013, 06:29:05 PM »
It's a great rule change. It suddenly adds so much to the chess-like openings. Well done, Dude, for getting this change.

Let's assume that, in a random match-up, 50% of books met want to go first and 50% of books met want to go second (note: this is 50% of books met which is similar to a mean, not 50% of books which is the median, as the frequency of meeting certain books must be accounted for).

Before, you would have had a straight 50% chance of playing in the position you prefer.
Now, you have a 75% chance of playing in the position you prefer (and so has your opponent).

Finally, seeing the mage match-up, you must evaluate what your preferred position is if you win the die roll. This adds skill which is good.


On a related topic, the Wizard does not state if you need to declare your element. This information is even more important when deciding whether to go first or second. We've not seen anything to say a Wizard has to declare his element so we don't in our local meta, yet more advantage when playing the "mysterious" Wizard. The only thread on this was this issue was here:

http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12973.msg21979#msg21979

No ruling was made. I was hoping the new FAQ would add clarity. Because information is power. Another point to add to the FAQ?
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Kharhaz

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Re: New Initiative Rules and You!
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2013, 07:14:47 PM »

On a related topic, the Wizard does not state if you need to declare your element. This information is even more important when deciding whether to go first or second. We've not seen anything to say a Wizard has to declare his element so we don't in our local meta, yet more advantage when playing the "mysterious" Wizard. The only thread on this was this issue was here:

http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12973.msg21979#msg21979

No ruling was made. I was hoping the new FAQ would add clarity. Because information is power. Another point to add to the FAQ?

Announcing the wizard type is the same as asking the beastmaster to list out what animals his book has, demanding to know if the necromancer is using either zombies / skeletons,  or even more ridiculously, before each match each player must hand their spell book to the opponent so that they can count spell book points.

« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 07:33:28 PM by Kharhaz »

Zuberi

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Re: New Initiative Rules and You!
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2013, 07:36:19 PM »
We've been informed by official sources that before the match begins you must reveal your mage card and then announce your ability card. The two do not have to match up. The intent is clear that they want each player to know what type of mage they are facing before the match even begins.

Although they don't specifically state that the training of the wizard has to be included in this announcement, I think it is a reasonable assumption that training is a part of what type of mage you are playing. I think it is more similar to announcing whether you are a Johktari Beastmaster or a Straywood Beastmaster. If you didn't have to specify, then there would be a lot more mystery as to what you were capable of. I do not think it is the same thing as showing your whole book off.

Thus, I'm in favor of revealing the Wizard's training at the beginning of the game, but it is not a rule that is clearly specified. The closest thing we have to support it is that multiple times they mention you have to reveal your mage to your opponent which isn't necessarily the same thing.

Aylin

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Re: New Initiative Rules and You!
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2013, 07:40:28 PM »

On a related topic, the Wizard does not state if you need to declare your element. This information is even more important when deciding whether to go first or second. We've not seen anything to say a Wizard has to declare his element so we don't in our local meta, yet more advantage when playing the "mysterious" Wizard. The only thread on this was this issue was here:

http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12973.msg21979#msg21979

No ruling was made. I was hoping the new FAQ would add clarity. Because information is power. Another point to add to the FAQ?

Announcing the wizard type is the same as asking the beastmaster to list out what animals his book has, demanding to know if the necromancer is using either zombies / skeletons,  or even more ridiculously, before each match each player must hand their spell book to the opponent so that they can count spell book points.

Ridiculous strawman argument is ridiculous.

Kharhaz

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Re: New Initiative Rules and You!
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2013, 07:56:49 PM »


Ridiculous strawman argument is ridiculous.

Wizard's elemental type choice only effects a 1 spell book point cost for a handful of spells, primarily attack spells. I believe it is a disadvantage to force a player to give hints as to his choices for spells he chose for his book because his selected mage's ability is versatility and flexibility.


Aylin

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Re: New Initiative Rules and You!
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2013, 08:04:26 PM »


Ridiculous strawman argument is ridiculous.

Wizard's elemental type choice only effects a 1 spell book point cost for a handful of spells, primarily attack spells. I believe it is a disadvantage to force a player to give hints as to his choices for spells he chose for his book because his selected mage's ability is versatility and flexibility.

Trying to say that knowing the training is the same as knowing what is in the player's spellbook with certainty is ridiculous.

The only "disadvantage" the Wizard gains by telling the opponent the trained element is losing the advantage gained from knowing what the opponent's training is in, but the opponent not knowing what the Wizard's training is. You can't really call leveling the playing field being put at a "disadvantage".

Zuberi

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Re: New Initiative Rules and You!
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2013, 08:04:55 PM »
It is not giving away any more information than any other mage is. When I tell you I'm playing a Warlock you immediately know I'm going to favor fire spells and dark spells and probably include at least one demon for blood reaper. Why should you know that much about my spellbook design? Because the rules say so.

The rules are not specific about Wizards training, but it is in line with what the rules do require.

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Re: New Initiative Rules and You!
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2013, 08:20:43 PM »
Well, technically you cannot conceal your training.
What you're trained in defines if certain spells can or cannot target you or be cast by you.

All I have to do is point at your card and ask "What type of Mage object is that?"
At that point, you have to tell me, or an official has to come and confirm for me.  I might want to cast my Cloak of Shadows on you, so I need to know what kind of Mage you are to know if its a legal play.

Its no different than pointing at your Grizzly Bear and asking to confirm what Level it is (to calculate my Sleep's mana cost) how many Enchantments are under it. (to figure out my Purge Magic) You can't just put your hand over it and say "Cast it and find out!"

the game never allows you to conceal meta-game information in other instances.  You cannot conceal your mana/health total, you cannot conceal your discard pile, you're not allowed to shuffle face down enchantments to hide their order.

So, while I do believe that revealing your training is part of revealing the mage...even if you aren't, I don't think you aren't allowed to avoid it if asked to confirm.