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Author Topic: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.  (Read 8454 times)

aquestrion

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Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« on: December 05, 2013, 12:47:59 PM »
So I want to see peoples opinions so let's put it to a vote yes or no should the wizard have to reveal its training. Please put a short description of why you think so.

I vote yes they should have to. Even though there is absolutely no difference (at the current time) in revealing or not.

aquestrion

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Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2013, 01:05:36 PM »
As of right now the only cards that a wizard can use by school/mage restrictions any elemental wizard can use because there are no elemental school restricted cards.

Other mage status cards have a clearly defined training. The wizards card allows you to choose a elemental school, but it does not say you have to spread it to the world. When a judge looks at your book you have to tell them you a wizard but when or where does it say you have to tell them which one.

I don't mind telling a judge which one I am but until someone puts down a clear cut rule that says I absolutely have to reveal my training I won't. Because I have yet to see a rule clearly written that spells it out.

Zuberi

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Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2013, 01:33:13 PM »
I believe a Mage's Training must be public knowledge because it can affect the game in several ways. According to page 15 in the FAQ, your training can affect what spells you are allowed to put in your spellbook, what spells you are allowed to cast, and what spells you are allowed to control. Any aspect of a card that has an impact on legal game play has to be public knowledge, otherwise players can not determine the legality of game play.

Even though there are currently no spells in the game to which this ruling applies for the elemental schools, the rule still exists and has a plethora of examples for the other schools of magic. You can't ignore that something exists just because you feel it isn't relevant.

sIKE

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Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2013, 03:17:42 PM »
I believe that you need to prove to me that you can keep your training hidden. I see it no where written in the rules that you can keep this fact a secret.
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aquestrion

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Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2013, 08:08:31 PM »
Now with that being said. Its true I showed you the card which shows my training as all mage cards do. It clearly says what I'm trained in ARCANE school and ONE ELEMENTAL school of my CHOOSING. What more do you want??? There is a big gaping hole here. The card itself doesn't say to reveal your choice.

The only advantage is that if I'm a named wizard you think you know what's in my book to better pick your moves. If I'm water you'll cast aside equipment, if I'm fire or wind you'll do this if earth you'll do that.

When I go to casual play we don't say let me see your book to check legality, we say man is it good to play today. When I go to a tournament I give my book to the TO and they check my book for legality. They never ask me which wizard I am, until they get halfway through my book. I will gladly tell them to make their job easier.

What I legally put in my book doesn't affect your game at all.(as there are no elemental school only cards at this time) FAQ page 15 has no meaning to an opponent except if a illegal play is made. In a tournament setting that would be weeded out before it started with registration. Casual play is a little different though we use the honor system.

Im all in agreement that a wizard should have to ,but unless there is a clearly define "you must do so" then, "prove me wrong" one way or the other is not going to solve this problem

aquestrion

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Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2013, 08:16:36 PM »
After reading the rule book it says take the mage and ability card. Place your mage card in the corner. After that I didn't even see where it says reveal it at all.

sIKE

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Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2013, 08:18:54 PM »
How can they get half way through the book (unless you have very little elemental based spells) without knowing what your minor is?

Once again, I am glad on the OTCGN side this is not an issue. You select the named Wizard during deck construction. When you reveal the Wizard the game announces your class. I am still flabbergasted at the argument that you pose. I have expressed my thoughts enough on this topic and we obviously have an un-opposable force vs. immovable object situation. In reality, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other on how you play your local meta.....
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Aylin

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Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2013, 11:38:51 PM »
un-opposable force vs. immovable object

Technically these are the same thing.


I would argue that the specific training (once chosen) becomes part of the card, and thus should be public knowledge.

Zuberi

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Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2013, 12:27:43 AM »
Quote from: aquestrion
What I legally put in my book doesn't affect your game at all.(as there are no elemental school only cards at this time) FAQ page 15 has no meaning to an opponent except if a illegal play is made. In a tournament setting that would be weeded out before it started with registration. Casual play is a little different though we use the honor system.

But it does affect game play. I have to be able to tell if you are cheating or not when ever you cast a spell or take control of a spell, both of which are affected by this rule and would not necessarily be weeded out by registration. If you cast Steal Equipment and take my mage wand, what happens if the spell I have bound to it is restricted by training? Your book was approved as legal by the judges, but now you have the opportunity to cast a spell that wasn't in your book and I have no way to tell if you are cheating or not because you won't give me that information.

The way I understand it, there are two arguments that you might be making. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Argument 1) Players are allowed to choose to ignore rules or mechanics that they don't find relevant.

We are all guilty of this to a degree. It often facilitates quicker game play and can occasionally just slip our mind. I know that creature has no way to avoid my attack, so I don't need to bother checking before I roll dice. Surely my opponent knows that I'm going to use the Hydra's Full Attack and not his Quick Attack, so I don't have to announce which one I am using.

Even though this is normally innocent, it is not right. A proper game requires everyone to follow all of the rules, mechanics, and procedures at all times. It doesn't matter if you agree with them or not. It doesn't matter if you believe they are relevant or not. If we allowed players to start ignoring rules on a whim, we would have anarchy. If we allowed them to ignore rules when everyone agrees its not relevant, we would have a house-variant of the game and not the official game as written.

So, you might be taking the position that, with the example of the Mage Wand given above, you do not have to reveal your training when using my Wand of of Drain Life because you can not possibly have training in the Dark School. My position however, is that it does not matter if you find that information to be relevant or not. It doesn't even matter if I agree with you. You must follow the rules at all times.

Argument 2) The rules do not require you to reveal information that affects game play.

This argument has a bit more merit. You are correct, there is no place in the rules that says you have to reveal your specific training. You know what else is not required by the rules? No place in the rules does it say I have to reveal my spell to you when I cast it.

By the rules, there is nothing stopping me from taking my face down spell that I've prepared and simply announcing "I'm going to cast Fireball on your mage" without showing you the spell. The rules only require me to announce the spell and the target, which I have done. If you feel I am cheating you could call a judge over to verify that my spell is indeed a Fireball and your mage is in range, but there's no place that says I have to show you the card or tell you anything about it or what it does. The only information you get is the name of the spell and what it is targeting. I don't even have to tell you that it is an Attack Spell, so you have no idea whether your Nullify will work against it or not.

So, while it is an assumption that any information that is needed to verify legal game play is also required to be public knowledge, I think it is an assumption that we can agree upon. Without it, the game could possibly become unplayable.

Conclusion
In the end, my findings are that any information that is needed to make legal game play is required to be public information. Page 15 of the FAQ states that your mage's training does affect legal game play. There might not currently be any cards in the game that make this relevant, but it is not up to the players to decide what is and is not relevant. If the FAQ says that a mage's training affects game play, and any information that affects game play is by necessity public information, then a mage's training is logically public information.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 12:34:52 AM by Zuberi »

Hedge

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Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2013, 12:53:36 AM »
All other mages schools are public knowledge, so too should the wizards chosen elemental school.



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aquestrion

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Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2013, 12:54:04 AM »
The relevance of the mage wand issues is covered in the FAQ it says I wizard controls the wand but until I rebind a legal spell I couldn't use it.

Your right there is nothing that states you have to reveal the fire ball until you discard it...then it is revealed so playing a fireball would be revealed as soon as the attack resolved and the card went to discard pile at which time I would know that you cheated... once again playing casually does require the honor system. In a tournament there are judges and such to check legality.

Once again on the basis that they should reveal training of the wizard I vote yes. I guess the part where its chosen does make since that I should yell out in an arena death match what training I have received.

I am very guilty of argument 1 , I find out all the time where I play incorrectly and am glad that I try to play correctly as I possibly can.

ringkichard

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Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2013, 09:13:50 AM »
This question is framed wrong. The Wizard's player doesn't have to reveal anything, but during the setup stage of the game he or she does have to choose an elemental training before choosing a spellbook, and because that's a choice about a face up creature in play, that's public information.

Like most rules disputes, the solution is to examine the rules:

Quote from: Rulebook v2
Mage Wars comes with 322 spells to start your spell library. These spells can be stored in the Mage Wars box. The spells you will play with during a game are placed in your spellbook and can be changed between games.

Setting Up the Game Place the game board on the table. Each player chooses a Mage and takes the matching Mage Card and Ability Card for that Mage (in Apprentice Mode, don’t use the Ability Cards). Each player chooses red or blue, and takes 10 action markers of that color. Additionally, each player takes 3 black status cubes, 1 red status cube, and 1 black quickcast marker.

Place your Mage Card in the corner zone closest to you (marked with a door on the board). In Apprentice Mode, you will play on just half the game board (see page 2). Place one of your action markers and your quickcast Marker on your Mage Card, with the white symbols up, as shown in the diagram to the left.

Place your Mage status board near you. Place a black status cube on your Mage’s starting Channeling, Mana Supply (all Mages start with 10 mana in their supply), and Life value. In Apprentice Mode, all Mages have the same attributes (see page 2). Place a red status cube on the “0” of your Mage’s Life track. This marks how much damage the Mage has taken. See example 1.

Choose a spellbook. If this is your first game, you will need to assemble your spellbook (see “Apprentice Mode” on page 2). Place the dice, condition markers, and other game markers in easy reach.

Both players roll the effect die. The higher roller takes the initiative marker: you will act first during the first round of the game! Your duel is now ready to begin!

So you choose your mage and put him or her on the board before you choose your spellbook. If you want the spellbook you choose during setup to be legal, you need to choose an elemental training that will accommodate your subsequent choice of elemental spells. This choice is made every game when you follow the setup rules and put a Wizard on the table and then follow the training rules on the Wizard's card.

And like all choices and actions in the game (beside enchantments, which are an explicit exception) you have to announce it so that both players know and can verify that the game state is legal. If you don't communicate your choice you might as well not have made it, which is the same as if you didn't communicate your choice to activate a creature or act on an optional triggered ability.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 09:23:20 AM by ringkichard »
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ChimpZilla

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Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2013, 05:30:19 PM »
Disrobe the wizard I say.

Hyper-competitive d-baggery will kill the game for casuals/pros in the long run.

DeckBuilder

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Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2013, 06:19:55 PM »
The question here is:

Does the Wizard's undoubted mage ability to be"versatile" include keeping his training secret? He is a "mysterious" mage (core set). Does this not make sense?

Some highly respected players on this forum (and our local meta) have been playing it that you can keep it a secret, exemplified by...

Wizard's elemental type choice only effects a 1 spell book point cost for a handful of spells, primarily attack spells. I believe it is a disadvantage to force a player to give hints as to his choices for spells he chose for his book because his selected mage's ability is versatility and flexibility.

But just like Playester Kharhaz, after listening to many enlightened contrary opinions (by Baron, sIKE, Kich etc), I've changed my stance on this and hope that, next time my local meta meets, we will announce training when we play Wizards. I just wish I had the FAQ to support my argument here, which was my point.

This is especially important now that highest roller chooses first turn initiative.
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Kharhaz

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Re: Does the wizard have to reveal elemental training.
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2013, 08:32:00 PM »
First, I want to acknowledge how minor of an issue this is. It does not change how you build spell books, and generally speaking, will have little - to no impact on your opening plays.

On to the topic at hand:
I understand the position that Baron made (and the best one for it), but I am going to hop back on the other side of the fence.

As a player, you are required to show a mage card and an ability card. End of discussion. I do not have to say anything else. I do not have to announce that my warlock is trained in dark and fire and the only thing I must show is the Training text on my ability card. For Wizard, "Trained in Arcane school, and an elemental school of his choice: Fire, Earth, Air, or water."

In Mage Wars, in regards to casting spells, you are not required to assist your opponent with anything. I (as the opponent) do not have to tell you the creatures spell levels for your calculations. Will I? Probably but that's my choice. I am not allowed to hide printed information, but I do not have to tell you anything other than my intent on creature activation and step choices (move, attack, reveal, etc).

In fact, it is your job to see that i have a leather gloves equipped, when you try to cast gloves of strength on me. 

"A spell fails and is canceled, if either of the following occur before the Resolve Spell Step:
    1. The target of the spell is no longer a legal target, or
    2. The caster or target of the spell moves .... blah blah blah not relevant here........ "

Hypothetical situation:

I am playing a game as a warlock vs a beastmaster.

I prepare a ring of curses. I choose to cast a spell. I reveal the ring of curses and say I am targeting your beastmaster (a mage which satisfies the target line of the ring of curses).

"A restricted mage cannot take control of that spell during the course of that game"

And so the spell is resolved and destroyed because this spell restriction rule happens after the counter spell step.

All of that to say, No a wizard does not have to tell you anything that happens in the process of building their spell book except that it is a legal book of 120 points. I do not have to tell you if a spell is a legal target when you select spells or any other non required information.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 08:49:18 PM by Kharhaz »