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Author Topic: Ichthelid Necromancer  (Read 12539 times)

Aylin

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Ichthelid Necromancer
« on: December 06, 2013, 08:50:38 PM »
Would a build based around 4 Ichthellid and Sacrificial Altar work?

As soon as I saw the card a couple months ago, I thought that sacing an Ichthellid to the Altar (to give another one bonuses) only to bring it back to life at the end of the turn from a previously placed larva would be pretty cool (and finally a way to use a card I've been thinking about since my first game). It would probably use Skeletons to round out the creatures while avoiding the Bloodthirsty Penalty.

I ask because 95% of the references I've seen made to Necromancer mention zombies (which don't interest me) and I'm not used to Necromancer play at all.

Kharhaz

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Re: Ichthelid Necromancer
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2013, 08:58:34 PM »
Ichthellid is an interesting choice for eternal servant as well.

Every time it comes back from the dead it receives an additional egg token!

Aylin

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Re: Ichthelid Necromancer
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2013, 09:07:08 PM »
Ichthellid is an interesting choice for eternal servant as well.

Every time it comes back from the dead it receives an additional egg token!

Yep! I'm seeing so much synergy with it, I'm just not sure if it would be effective (compared to Zombie Brute build with 4x Zombie Frenzy).

baronzaltor

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Re: Ichthelid Necromancer
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2013, 09:22:06 PM »
I like the Ichthellids a lot, and they can certainly form an engine but I'm not sure if a build can sustain itself soley based on them.

One Icthellid can be your Undying Servant (because they are undead too)  This one becomes the queen mother, drop its egg and sac it on the alter, as it will bring a new egg every time it comes back to life to let you seed multiple targets while you use plague master to melt them.

but, they don't hit too hard on their own and don't have a ton of health, so some support creatures would need to go with them.  They are non living its hard to buff them

You also run into issues if
-the opponent doesn't have many creatures for you to seed
-the opponent is using non living creatures
-the opponent starts using devour
-the opponent can remove poison conditions easily

Id go with skeleton support too (mainly because Ive always been a skeleton fan)
Skeleton Archers can give ranged support, and Skeletal Knights are just good stout units who will hit for 7 damage and 2 pierce if you sac a spider to buff him.
Mort can go for a respectable 6 damage, 2 pierce and taint chance with a sacrificed spider buff.

Ichthillds also have climbing, so you could use Walls of Bone to help partition certain areas and they can still scale over it get around.  Wall of Bones also have the perk of being Healable by Reconstruct and Mort.

Another trick to remember is that you can play multiple Sacrifical Altars on the table.  Each one can only be used once per round, but you can sure Sacrifice 4 spiders on 4 altars for +8 Melee, +8 pierce in one round and rehatch them
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 09:24:21 PM by baronzaltor »

Aylin

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Re: Ichthelid Necromancer
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2013, 09:25:57 PM »
Early Draft - please pick apart

Attack [8]
2x - Hurl Boulder [8]

Conjuration [8]
1x - Wall of Bones [1]
1x - Idol of Pestilence [2]
1x - Sacrificial Altar [1]
1x - Poison Gas Cloud [4]

Creature [18]
4x - Ichthellid [8]
2x - Deathfang [4]
2x - Skeletal Knight [6]

Enchantment [23]
1x - Agony [1]
1x - Death Link [2]
1x - Decoy [1]
3x - Ghoul Rot [6]
1x - Magebane [1]
2x - Maim Wings [2]
2x - Marked for Death [2]
2x - Nullify [4]
1x - Poisoned Blood [1]
1x - Rise Again [3]

Equipment [23]
1x - Eagleclaw Boots [2]
1x - Dragonscale Hauberk [2]
1x - Demonhide Armor [2]
1x - Elemental Cloak [2]
1x - Cloak of Shadows [2]
1x - Mage Wand [4]
1x - Death Ring [1]
1x - Deathshroud Staff [3]
1x - Libro Moruos [3]
1x - Meditation Amulet [2] (I did promise to try it out...)

Incantation [40]
2x - Power Strike [2]
1x - Drain Soul [4]
2x - Battle Fury [4]
4x - Dispel [8]
4x - Dissolve [8]
3x - Perfect Strike [3]
1x - Seeking Dispel [2]
1x - Shift Enchantment [1]
2x - Teleport [8]
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 09:28:37 PM by AylinIsAwesome »

Aylin

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Re: Ichthelid Necromancer
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2013, 09:31:38 PM »
Hmm, 4x Sacrifical Altars might be tough to use efficiently. 2x would be much more manageable I think. (Mostly I think I would use the sacing power to make something with a larva on it die - hit with 1 Ichthellid [placing larva on it], then sacrificing that one to giving something else Melee +2/Piercing +2 to finish it off).

I had forgotten that Mort has the Taint chance. It might be worth removing the Deathfangs to make room, or maybe the Rise Again and the Poisoned Blood.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 09:42:08 PM by AylinIsAwesome »

baronzaltor

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Re: Ichthelid Necromancer
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2013, 09:45:16 PM »
You could also consider using some living creatures whom you can sacrifice and then raise up with rise again.

Malacoda could be good
1- he can do area damage to hatch spiders faster
2- he is worth 4 melee and 4 pierce when sacrificed to the altar (just before his death)
3- you can use Rise Again on him so that after you sacrifice him he comes back and keeps dropping area damage.


Flaming Hellion is another example,  he's still a Dark spell, so costs you nothing extra.  Prior to his death he can be sacrificed for +3 melee and pierce.   Then, you can Rise Again him.. now he's back and he can still be ranged fire support despite his slow status.  Skeleton Archer might be more practical, just kinda spinning wheels of oddball stuff. He also gives you a fire option for Druids and Warlords without actually having to use the fire school.  (as does hellfire trap)

Even Dark Pact Slayer can get in there and mix it up.. he has 2 pierce to begin with so if you buff him with the Altar he becomes capable of getting up to nice high puncturing blows for iron golems and conjurations and stuff.  He can get risen back up too if he dies.

Id also go with multiple Altars if its going to be an active part of the engine.  Its only a level 1 spell, its kinda fragile and you can mass sacrifice in a pinch or just have a backup.

If all your Skeletons and Spiders are going to be clustered up in a zone, Fortified Position might be worth considering.. I recommend that card a lot, especially for non-living creatures who can't benefit from Rhino Hide or Aegis.

Retaliate is a good card.. you can stick it on your spiders, then reveal a counter strike to egg them on their own attack attempt.  Also, since the buff from Sacrificial Altar lasts till the end of the round, Retaliate will let you double dip. 

« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 09:46:54 PM by baronzaltor »

Aylin

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Re: Ichthelid Necromancer
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2013, 10:08:44 PM »
What do you think of this:

Mage Wars deck (built using OCTGN deckbuilder) 12/6/2013 12:00:00 AM

Spellbook points: 120 used of 120 allowed

1 Necromancer

---  Attack  ---
2 Hurl Boulder

---  Conjuration  ---
1 Wall of Bones
1 Idol of Pestilence
3 Sacrificial Altar

---  Creature  ---
4 Ichthellid
2 Deathfang
2 Skeletal Knight
1 Mort
1 Malacoda

---  Enchantment  ---
1 Agony
1 Death Link
1 Decoy
2 Ghoul Rot
1 Magebane
2 Maim Wings
2 Marked for Death
2 Nullify

---  Equipment  ---
1 Eagleclaw Boots
1 Dragonscale Hauberk
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Mage Wand
1 Cloak of Shadows
1 Death Ring
1 Deathshroud Staff
1 Libro Mortuos
1 Meditation Amulet
1 Demonhide Armor

---  Incantation  ---
2 Power Strike
1 Drain Soul
1 Battle Fury
4 Dispel
4 Dissolve
3 Perfect Strike
1 Shift Enchantment
2 Teleport


I decided to drop Rise Again for Malacoda, partially because it's 3 points and also because it would Stun Malacoda when he reentered play.

I'm not sure what to drop to fit in Retaliate, but I hadn't thought about getting the bonus twice using it. I'd have to convince my opponent to attack whatever had the bonus after I had already sacced though... which might make getting the bonus twice difficult.

I know it's going to have trouble against nonliving creatures, especially in mirror matches.

Aylin

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Re: Ichthelid Necromancer
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2013, 01:09:31 AM »
I just tried it against my Druid book. It did not go so well...

I think the issue was that I was too slow early, it wasn't until mid game that I had a comfortable mana supply (using Meditation Amulet almost every turn from turn 2 onwards).

I opened with:
Turn 1: Death Ring -> Libro Mortuos (moving 1 zone up, towards NC)
Turn 2: Deploy Ichthellid, Meditation Amulet -> Meditate

By the end of turn 2, the Druid book had a Thornlasher sitting in FC with a Bloodspine Wall in front of it, so... positional fight already lost.

The Deathshroud Staff seemed ok to me (1 mana with Ring for 2+ undead getting Melee +1 seems pretty good), but I'm not sold on Libro Mortuos. I almost think I'd be better off with a Mage Wand in the off hand with Teleport (or Power Strike or something). The mana investment for Libro + Amulet is 13, so (assuming I meditate each turn) it would take 4 turns to pay it off, and I gain no action advantage.

So I think the question now is whether or not I can use Libro for action advantage.

What about an opening like this:
Turn 1 (20 mana): Death Ring -> Libro Mortuos (-14 mana), move up 1 zone
Turn 2 (16 mana): Deploy Ichthellid (in mirror match replace with Deathfang?), Hellfire Trap -> Mana Crystal (-16 mana)
Turn 3 (11 mana): Cast Charge/Power Strike on Ichthellid -> Mana Crystal (-7/9 mana)

[Obviously the book would have to be redone again]

I think my other option would be
Turn 1 (20 mana): 2x Mana Crystal (-10 mana)
Turn 2 (22 mana): Death Ring -> Mort (-20 mana)
Turn 3 (14 mana): Ichthellid -> Mage Wand (-13 mana)

From there I could probably summon something every other turn (possibly using Charge on the wand to speed them into combat).

How does everyone else feel about Libro?

sdougla2

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Re: Ichthelid Necromancer
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2013, 01:35:09 AM »
I liked Libro Mortuos when I used it (only 1 game with the Necromancer so far), but my opponent didn't pressure me very quickly. I opened with Battleforge and only played Libro Mortuos on turn 3. Death Ring works very nicely with a spawnpoint churning out creatures. The thing is that it works better with cheap creatures. I used Zombie Minions and Zombie Crawlers primarily, and I didn't play any more expensive creatures until I had all 4 Zombie Minions and a pair of Zombie Crawlers down. With more expensive creatures, it's hard to play them and do anything else, and the mana savings from Death Ring are less significant. Plus unlike other swarms of low level creatures, zombies are pretty sturdy for their cost. I'm not sure it's what you're looking for for this build though.

The big advantage that Libro Mortuos has over Graveyard is that it lets you deploy creatures wherever you are. This works nicely if you plan to get in your opponent's face, and works well with Battleforge and Deathshroud Staff. It's also nice for supporting relatively immobile creatures like Zombies. I don't think that this mobility is an important advantage for an Ichthellid build though.

I don't think Meditation Amulet is the way to go with Libro Mortuos. I think that Graveyard would pair better with Meditation Amulet. Maybe run Lirbo Mortuos as a second spawnpoint to play if your Graveyard is destroyed or you're generating enough mana with Meditation Amulet to get away with it, but Graveyard seems like a better choice for a baseline Meditation Amulet play. Particularly since you want to use Sacrificial Alter and Ichthellid, both of which synergize better with Graveyard than with Libro Mortuos.
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Aylin

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Re: Ichthelid Necromancer
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2013, 02:46:36 AM »
I liked Libro Mortuos when I used it (only 1 game with the Necromancer so far), but my opponent didn't pressure me very quickly. I opened with Battleforge and only played Libro Mortuos on turn 3. Death Ring works very nicely with a spawnpoint churning out creatures. The thing is that it works better with cheap creatures. I used Zombie Minions and Zombie Crawlers primarily, and I didn't play any more expensive creatures until I had all 4 Zombie Minions and a pair of Zombie Crawlers down. With more expensive creatures, it's hard to play them and do anything else, and the mana savings from Death Ring are less significant. Plus unlike other swarms of low level creatures, zombies are pretty sturdy for their cost. I'm not sure it's what you're looking for for this build though.

The big advantage that Libro Mortuos has over Graveyard is that it lets you deploy creatures wherever you are. This works nicely if you plan to get in your opponent's face, and works well with Battleforge and Deathshroud Staff. It's also nice for supporting relatively immobile creatures like Zombies. I don't think that this mobility is an important advantage for an Ichthellid build though.

I don't think Meditation Amulet is the way to go with Libro Mortuos. I think that Graveyard would pair better with Meditation Amulet. Maybe run Lirbo Mortuos as a second spawnpoint to play if your Graveyard is destroyed or you're generating enough mana with Meditation Amulet to get away with it, but Graveyard seems like a better choice for a baseline Meditation Amulet play. Particularly since you want to use Sacrificial Alter and Ichthellid, both of which synergize better with Graveyard than with Libro Mortuos.

Graveyard might work, it's just so expensive. I guess that would open something like
1: 20 - Graveyard -> Harmonize (-18)
2: 12 - Ichthellid -> Amulet -> Meditate (-8) [much as it pains me I don't think I could use Graveyard without this PoS]
3: 14 - Deathfang (Eternal Servant) -> Death Ring -> Meditate (-8)
4: 16 - Ichthelid -> Deathshroud Staff -> Meditate (-10)
5: 16 - Ichthelid -> Sacrificial Altar -> Staff Quickspell (-11)
[The spawnpoint setup is still 5 mana and 2 actions away from paying itself off]

That would probably give me the best longterm setup, but I worry I'd be too vulnerable in the early game with only a handful of level 2 creatures. I think the 2x Crystal setup might work a little better since I'd have Mort from turn 3 (who is surprisingly hard to kill with that passive regen). I'll think about it some more though.

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Re: Ichthelid Necromancer
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2013, 02:52:44 AM »
I like the Ichthellids a lot, and they can certainly form an engine but I'm not sure if a build can sustain itself soley based on them.

I was about to say this. But it would be nice to try to run Ichthellids in an insect build (if we get more insect creatures).
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MrSaucy

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Re: Ichthelid Necromancer
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2013, 02:57:05 AM »
@AylinIsAwesome

I am thinking about playing Necromancer without Graveyard or Libro Mortuos. (I never use Graveyard. Nothing against the specific spawnpoint, just hate spawnpoints in general.) My opening would probably look something like this:

Turn 1: Death Ring, Deathshroud Staff
Turn 2: Cloak of Shadows Or Elemental Cloak + Demonhide Armor
Turn 3: Sacrificial Atlar Or Ziggurat of Undeath OR Deathlock + Summon an opening creature (mana pending)

Libro seemed really good to me at first, but it is annoying how it only becomes helpful after a harmonize, so right there you have to waste a whole turn getting Libro set up.
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sdougla2

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Re: Ichthelid Necromancer
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2013, 03:02:56 AM »
I'm not sure of the best way to handle that, although playing the Meditation Amulet first turn will probably work better. I don't think Graveyard has a minimum amount of mana needed to deploy a creature, in which case you come out slightly ahead playing the Meditation Amulet before the Harmonize.

The issue is that there aren't any really good defensive Nonliving dark creatures that are cheap enough to get out turn 2 with that type of opening. One of the reasons I like Lair -> Meditation Amulet turn 1 is Timber Wolf is such a nice creature for defense if that becomes necessary. I would probably play a turn 2 Deathfang, and hope to hinder my opponent with the Deathfang in order to slow them down. Then if they're rushing me, I would meditate and play Dragonscale Hauberk, if not, meditate and play Harmonize, Death Ring, or a Mana Crystal. You could also use Skeletal Sentry. A Skeletal Sentry isn't as good a guard as Timber Wolf, but you could start healing them efficiently later if they survive, and if they die, it feeds your Graveyard.

As for Libro, I wouldn't cast Harmonize on it, as that leaves you vulnerable to an efficient Dissolve/Explode. It becomes efficient enough with Death Ring anyway.
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Aylin

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Re: Ichthelid Necromancer
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2013, 03:12:22 AM »
@AylinIsAwesome

I am thinking about playing Necromancer without Graveyard or Libro Mortuos. (I never use Graveyard. Nothing against the specific spawnpoint, just hate spawnpoints in general.) My opening would probably look something like this:

Turn 1: Death Ring, Deathshroud Staff
Turn 2: Cloak of Shadows Or Elemental Cloak + Demonhide Armor
Turn 3: Sacrificial Atlar Or Ziggurat of Undeath OR Deathlock + Summon an opening creature (mana pending)

Libro seemed really good to me at first, but it is annoying how it only becomes helpful after a harmonize, so right there you have to waste a whole turn getting Libro set up.

To me, Harmonizing a Libro seems like the worst idea. "Oh, you just sunk 14 mana into an equipment spawnpoint? It would be a shame if someone were to...Dissolve it!" (I know you can pay 3 life to get it back into your book, but forcing it to be recast, destroying harmonize, and damaging the opponent all for 10 mana just seems insanely efficient.)

Anyway, I'm seeing this Necromancer as more support than front line, which is why I'd delay the staff for a couple of turns (for me). It's about getting those Ichthellids out after all...  I am leaning heavily towards no spawnpoint, just for the early game presence I can get without one. My only reservation is that opening with 2x Crystals (what I would need in order to support summoning mid-sized creatures semi-regularly) feels kinda...wrong.