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Author Topic: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN  (Read 8526 times)

jacksmack

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The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« on: January 06, 2014, 11:34:31 AM »
With DvsN introducing a new class that specializes in non-living creatures plus being poisen immune himself other traits goes down in value.

Creatures like:
Stonegaze Basilisk
Screech Harpy
Giant Wolf Spider
Dire Wolf
Emerald Tegu
Goran Werewolf
Psylok

Most of these were close to being viable, but with DvsN release these actually got a tad worse.
All of them are cool and unique creatures that i WANT to play... but i want to win more than i want to play cool creatures, so i always go with other choices.

There are more creatures being unusable than these - like the 4 goblins - but they did not get a downgrade with the DvsN release OR they will get obvious fixes with new expansions (Makunda getting more cats)

How to get cool but unused creatures (back) in the game?

MrSaucy

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Re: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2014, 01:42:21 AM »
I disagree about Dire Wolf, Gorgan Werewolf, and Giant Wolf Spider being "bad" creatures. Sure, they aren't effective against non-living, but these creatures are still strong against mages that utilize living creatures. If you are expecting spells to always be effective you are missing out on the role that strengths and weaknesses play in both the strategy and balance of the game. Non-living creatures have their own set of weaknesses. And are we going to start calling non-living creatures useless when more light spells (with +2 against undead) get released? I don't think so.
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baronzaltor

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Re: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2014, 02:53:26 AM »
Even against non living creatures, the Spider can still be useful as a ranged "stuck" turret.  Helpful for stumbling oncoming creatures, getting fliers out of the air or getting around guards, and making the opponent spend a few teleports even if you cannot take advantage of the taint chance.

jacksmack

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Re: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2014, 03:21:42 AM »
So are you actually seeing these creatures being played?

I have seen Giant Wolf spider in a total of 1 game so far.

I have seen Goran and Dire wolfs more than that, but its becoming more and more rare.

Basilisk only once since CoK.
Tegu very rarely.

Screech Harpy and Psylok never.

mr saucy... there is a difference on creatures having a weakness:
 - undead suffers more damage from light attacks -
and creatures loosing their potential:
Dire wolfs not getting bloodthirsty and no bleed vs undead creatures.

DeckBuilder

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Re: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2014, 05:10:23 AM »
I so agree with jacksmack here.

ALL IS FLESH
Epic Dark 2 Living Conjuration
Cost ~8 Armour 0 Life ~12
Regeneration 2
All Corporeal Nonliving creatures and conjurations lose Nonliving and gain Living.

It would need clarification to check for status legality (condition markers and attachments) on arrival and removal.
But this grotesque bulbous fleshy living monolith would shake up Jokhtari, Necromancer, Earth Wizard, light defence etc.

I think it is so important that AW do their best to resurrect unplayables instead of confining them to the obsolete bin.
This is what I have been pushing for because it is elegant, all the pieces make sense and adds variety.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 05:12:55 AM by DeckBuilder »
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ACG

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Re: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2014, 06:40:37 AM »
ALL IS FLESH would probably break the necromancer. Living zombies are terrifying, since they suddenly have access to countless nature buffs, healing/vampirism, benefits from etherian lifetree, etc. in addition to their natural resilience.

I agree about finding ways to make underused cards more useful by releasing new ones that make them more appealing.

DeckBuilder

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Re: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2014, 12:34:46 PM »
Yeah, very good point, ACG, it was just the first thing that came to mind.
Living buffs "slip off" the moment it's removed so maybe just make it Life 8?
You could weaken it with "and retains Finite Life" but that feels so clunky.
"Loses Poison Immunity" does not help Bloodthirsty, Bleed, Wounded Prey.
You could make it localised like Gravikor but more limited, within 1 zone?
While I like the Lovecraftian Horror feel of the idea, it's probably too much.

My problem is I really like the Jokhtari (the whole savage huntress shaman concept).
Unfortunately this includes
* Bleed (Dire Wolf, Makunda, Hunting Bow, Bloodspine Walls)
* Bloodthirsty (Dire Wolf)
* Wounded Prey
* non-Animal with Taint (Giant Wolf Spider!)
* Emeral Tegu also feels very Jokhtari

Maybe what is needed is...

NATURE'S RECLAIM
Cost 2+X Enchant Corporeal Nonliving Creature, Nature 1
X = removal cost of all condition markers on this creature
This creature loses its Nonliving trait

It's best revealed just before Damage Effects or just before Declare Attack to use Bloodthirsty.
Note the indirect mana taxation of subsequent condition markers (as it increases Dispel cost).
Because Dispelling the enchantment would obviously make all those condition markers slip off.
It would make Traditional Jokhtari playable against Nonliving and create some new strategies.

There needs to be blurring of this growing Living Book vs. Nonliving Book schism in the game.
Else it feels like match-up lottery. And turning Living to Nonliving is too much like Purge Magic.
Therefore the solution is surely to transform Nonliving into Living for all those obsolete cards?


I am so with you, ACG, on making existing neglected cards more playable, increasing book variety.
From Goblins, Garrisons, Barracks, Pentagram, even Gate to Hell, I've tried to make them playable.
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Aylin

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Re: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2014, 01:13:02 PM »
I so agree with jacksmack here.

ALL IS FLESH
Epic Dark 2 Living Conjuration
Cost ~8 Armour 0 Life ~12
Regeneration 2
All Corporeal Nonliving creatures and conjurations lose Nonliving and gain Living.

It would need clarification to check for status legality (condition markers and attachments) on arrival and removal.
But this grotesque bulbous fleshy living monolith would shake up Jokhtari, Necromancer, Earth Wizard, light defence etc.

I think it is so important that AW do their best to resurrect unplayables instead of confining them to the obsolete bin.
This is what I have been pushing for because it is elegant, all the pieces make sense and adds variety.

I think that conjuration should be a combination of Dark and Holy

IndyPendant

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Re: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2014, 04:13:06 AM »
Hmm, how about another conjuration instead that breaks only some of the nonliving issues?  (Of course, the values are adjustable for balance purposes, it's the concept I'm shooting for here.)

Acidic Infusion
Conjuration, Epic, Zone Exclusive
Cost 7 Armour 2 Life 8
All Creatures lose and cannot gain Poison Immunity.  Bleed loses the condition "Bleed can only affect living non-plant creatures".

ACG

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Re: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2014, 05:47:31 AM »
Hmm, how about another conjuration instead that breaks only some of the nonliving issues?  (Of course, the values are adjustable for balance purposes, it's the concept I'm shooting for here.)

Acidic Infusion
Conjuration, Epic, Zone Exclusive
Cost 7 Armour 2 Life 8
All Creatures lose and cannot gain Poison Immunity.  Bleed loses the condition "Bleed can only affect living non-plant creatures".

But what is the thematic justification? Note that you are making the following creatures vulnerable to poison:

- Iron Golems and Earth Elementals (maybe a little plausible, but still not much)
- incorporeal creatures (no way. ever.)

 Also, be careful with the wording of the bleed condition; as it currently stands you are allowing anything (including conjurations) to bleed. A bleeding mana crystal or barracks is a little odd. In general, I would be cautious when designing cards that change the definitions of traits and conditions.

Basically, we have to consider theme when making cards, or we will have the "I can't water my plants" problem all over again (which I believe could have been avoided with some initial thematic consideration - there is no good thematic reason why plants should be any less vulnerable to water than creatures, much less immune. Lightning vulnerability for things like the iron golem and the steel wall also bothers me - as a conductor, metal should be less vulnerable to being damaged by electricity, not more. People don't generally complain about this inconsistency, though)

The challenge here is to make bleed and poison more effective against nonliving creatures, right? Here are my proposals:



This is building off your acidic infusion idea, which I believe is intended to suggest that poison becomes acidic. It does this by changing poison into acid. I don't think it causes any weird thematic inconsistencies..

As for bleeding, the easiest way to do that is a rule change that you can forgo a bleed marker to give the attack piercing +1 instead. This requires no card erratas, makes bleed more useful, still gives some nonliving creatures an advantage, and I don't think it causes any thematic inconsistencies. Note that this is still irrelevant for many creatures, such as spirits, zombies, and armor 0 skeletons.

silverclawgrizzly

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Re: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2014, 02:36:26 AM »
I'm with Mr. Saucy on this. Just cause a creature isn't as powerful against the undead as it would be against the living doesn't make it useless. Goran actually is really cool against zombies as his Double strike gives him two shots at damaging them. The Tegu has done well for me on a number of occasions, and Dire Wolves are just cool.
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Aylin

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Re: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2014, 08:24:24 AM »
I'm with Mr. Saucy on this. Just cause a creature isn't as powerful against the undead as it would be against the living doesn't make it useless. Goran actually is really cool against zombies as his Double strike gives him two shots at damaging them. The Tegu has done well for me on a number of occasions, and Dire Wolves are just cool.

The thing with Dire Wolves is that against undead, they are less effective than the cheaper Timber Wolves are.

silverclawgrizzly

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Re: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2014, 01:53:38 AM »
I'm with Mr. Saucy on this. Just cause a creature isn't as powerful against the undead as it would be against the living doesn't make it useless. Goran actually is really cool against zombies as his Double strike gives him two shots at damaging them. The Tegu has done well for me on a number of occasions, and Dire Wolves are just cool.

The thing with Dire Wolves is that against undead, they are less effective than the cheaper Timber Wolves are.

This is true as the Timber Wolf has a higher base attack(and is usually made into my pet.) Dire Wolves are as you say best used for the living.
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Roflman

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Re: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2014, 07:14:17 AM »
You can still focus on the mage (Necromancer in this case) with the dire wolves and let other creatures fight the undead horde.

Sailor Vulcan

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Re: The rarely used (bad) creatures just go even worse with DvsN
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2014, 01:09:11 PM »
No one's saying that creatures are useless in general if they can't stand up to nonliving creatures. Let's remember that the power levels of cards don't exist in a vacuum, their usefulness is defined by their interactions with other cards. The problem here is that the Johktari Beastmaster as she is, while she's pretty good in living matchups, she's at a HUGE disadvantage against nonliving. While it might not be entirely accurate to say that you can NEVER win against a Necromancer as the Johktari Beastmaster, it seems likely to me with her current spells and abilites that if someone plays her against a necromancer of equal skill, the necromancer will almost always win.

I think Deckbuilder's right, we have the beginnings of a schism on our hands between living and non living mage wars. I doubt it will stay that way for long though, since a lot of people have already noticed it. And I think ACG's right on the money with spells and effects that turn poison to acid. That is possibly the most obvious and sensible solution.

Of course, something else to keep in mind is that in the long run there will likely be far more living creatures than nonliving. (at least IMO--The rules say that all creatures are assumed to be living unless they have the non-living trait, which seems to imply the living trait as the norm.)
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