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Author Topic: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)  (Read 9974 times)

gw

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Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« on: January 16, 2014, 01:01:04 PM »
After some input by Aylin ( http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=13334.45 ) and some games my Druid deck has developed a bit. Comments are appreciated :)

What I like and think works well in the deck :
Fellella.

What I am unsure about:
The creatures. Not sure if there are enough. We do not have a creature heavy environment atm, so usually not more than 2-4 creatures are summoned on each side.

Usual start:
1. Fellella + Harmonize
2. Vine tree and go from there - if starting slowly : Harmonize on Tree (Fellella) + Shift Ench (Tree Harmo to Mage)
=> channel +11 and +2 Fellella and +1 Tree

Druid

---  Attack  ---
1 Force Hammer
2 Acid Ball
2 Surging Wave

---  Conjuration  ---
1 Vine Tree
2 Corrosive Orchid
2 Tanglevine

---  Creature  ---
1 Fellella, Pixie Familiar
4 Raptor Vine
1 Tarok, the Skyhunter
2 Thunderift Falcon
1 Iron Golem

---  Enchantment  ---
2 Harmonize
2 Rhino Hide
1 Block
3 Nullify
1 Teleport Trap
1 Healing Charm
3 Bear Strength
1 Mongoose Agility
4 Decoy
1 Falcon Precision
1 Barkskin

---  Equipment  ---
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Mage Staff
1 Mage Wand
1 Veterans Belt
1 Dragonscale Hauberk
1 Wand of Healing
1 Deflection Bracers

---  Incantation  ---
4 Dispel
4 Dissolve
2 Rouse the Beast
1 Shift Enchantment
2 Teleport
3 Burst of Thorns
2 Vampiric Strike
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sdougla2

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Re: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2014, 02:09:03 PM »
I need to test my Druid quite a bit more, and I haven't really looked seriously at using Fellella in a Druid Build. I am by no means an expert on the Druid at this point. Still, there are a few choices in this build that seem a little strange:

By my count, you only have 8 cards that Vine Tree can cast. For a mage that can excel at attrition like the Druid, I would generally want more things for my Spawnpoint to cast. You also don't have many creatures for a creature Spawnpoint build (particularly ones you can cast from that Spawnpoint).

Why no Thornlashers? It seems like they would work well with your Iron Golem and provide you with some more position control.

You have no worthwhile ways to buff a swarm aside from acid, making Thunderdrift Falcons seem like an odd choice.

What are you planning on doing with Vampiric Strike? Raptor Vines already have Vampiric and Iron Golem can't heal. That pretty much leaves using it on your mage or Tarok (Vampirism would be a better choice, particularly with Fellella in the mix) or on your Falcons (not worth it).

Why do you cast Harmonize on Fellella? She's already expensive and extremely vulnerable to Unavoidable attacks. The primary benefit of Fellella is the action advantage, not the mana. I think you would be better off playing a Druid's Leaf Ring or Mana Flower on turn 1 instead of Harmonize. Harmonize on Vine Tree makes a lot more sense. This leaves you less vulnerable to a single spell ruining your day. Why no Enchanter's Ring as a backup in case Fellella gets fried?

Also, if you are going to use Fellella, consider running curses.

Why run Deflection Bracers over Cobra Reflexes in a Fellella build, particularly when Cobra Reflexes is 2 spellpoints and Deflection Bracers is 3?

I tend to prefer enchantment buffs on bigger, more resilient creatures like Steelclaw Grizzly, Dark Pact Slayer, and Necropian Vampiress. I'm going to try buffing Raptor Vines to some extent with my Druid build, but you seem more focused on buffing creatures with enchantments than I would bother with without at least one more resilient creature in the mix. That creature could be Galador, Steelclaw Grizzly, Cervere, or Kralathor, depending on what you are looking for. Eagle Wings might be a good option for buffing one of these bigs, particularly if you are concerned about flyers.
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Aylin

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Re: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2014, 04:06:08 PM »
I would never Harmonize Fellella. The most mana she can contribute to any spell is 2, so if she's Harmonized and then doesn't cast an enchantment one turn for some reason, she's got mana sitting on her that can't ever be used (unless you Shift it away, but...) Harmonize would be better on your Mage or on the Tree.

Why don't you cast the Vine Tree in the first round? It's cheaper than the familiar, and it increases your channeling at the same time. I'd recommend that you switch them (Harmonizing the tree here if you like).

Probably my biggest thing is that you have so few Vines. The current iteration of my Druid has 15 Vines*. While games don't normally run 18 turns, it does give me more options during the Deployment phase.

With your current creatures I'd suggest Power Strike over Vampiric Strike. It's Novice as well, so 2x would only cost you 2 points. Though I am curious why you chose the Iron Golem in particular.

My Current Vine List: 15
2x Tanglevine (I need to add in more of these somehow)
2x Nightshade Lotus
2x Corrosive Orchid
1x Bloodspine Wall
1x Kralathor, The Devourer
4x Raptor Vine
3x Thornlasher

Non-deployable: 1
Vinewhip Staff (for 4-mana Stuck)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 04:47:19 PM by Aylin »

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Re: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2014, 04:24:42 PM »
Aylin, keep in mind that Vine tree does not allow you to deploy equipment, so Vinewhip staff should not be counted with the other vines.
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Aylin

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Re: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2014, 04:46:33 PM »
Aylin, keep in mind that Vine tree does not allow you to deploy equipment, so Vinewhip staff should not be counted with the other vines.

Good point.

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Re: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2014, 09:03:32 AM »
Thx for all the feedback.

@ sdougla2:

By my count, you only have 8 cards that Vine Tree can cast. For a mage that can excel at attrition like the Druid, I would generally want more things for my Spawnpoint to cast. You also don't have many creatures for a creature Spawnpoint build (particularly ones you can cast from that Spawnpoint).
As mana is limited I like to let the VTree collect some mana for 3-4 turns, so I don't need many vines. Also, imho there aren't that many good vines atm.

Why no Thornlashers? It seems like they would work well with your Iron Golem and provide you with some more position control.You have no worthwhile ways to buff a swarm aside from acid [hmm?], making Thunderdrift Falcons seem like an odd choice.
I don't think Thornlashers are good. You can maybe set up a nice highway or sth. which is probably fun but apart from that I don't really like them. Thunderift Falcons are in because : cheap and flying.

What are you planning on doing with Vampiric Strike?
Actually a very good point. I included it as a heal for my mage with the idea of using it on my creatues if need should be. It slipped my attention that only few creatues actually can use it. Interestingly, taking out Vampirism and replacing it by Vamp Strike was one of the last things I did simply because it is the cheaper card.

Why do you cast Harmonize on Fellella? She's already expensive and extremely vulnerable to Unavoidable attacks. The primary benefit of Fellella is the action advantage, not the mana. I think you would be better off playing a Druid's Leaf Ring or Mana Flower on turn 1 instead of Harmonize. Harmonize on Vine Tree makes a lot more sense. This leaves you less vulnerable to a single spell ruining your day. Why no Enchanter's Ring as a backup in case Fellella gets fried?Also, if you are going to use Fellella, consider running curses.
I did but they soak too many spell book points. I was running 2 GhoulRots but somehow they left the deck over time because I needed points. Might be temporary though.

Why run Deflection Bracers over Cobra Reflexes in a Fellella build, particularly when Cobra Reflexes is 2 spellpoints and Deflection Bracers is 3?
I did but CobraReflexes feels so expensive. Bracers 6 mana , Cobra 9 mana. I mean on paper it's only 3 mana but it feels different. As I have access to 4 actions (if needed) I like to keep it cheap - revealing Fellella's enchantments costs mana too  >:(

That creature could be Galador, Steelclaw Grizzly, Cervere, or Kralathor [..]
For some reason I don't like Kralathor. I replaced Galador with the Iron Golem more or less a moment before I posted. I usually don't cast more than 2 expensive creatures due to mana restrains and Tarok is more or less a given as he is flying; I simply think that there are better high-cost creatures than Galador - eg Iron Golem.

@Aylin
I would never Harmonize Fellella. The most mana she can contribute to any spell is 2, so if she's Harmonized and then doesn't cast an enchantment one turn for some reason, she's got mana sitting on her that can't ever be used (unless you Shift it away, but...)
This is where Decoy comes in handy. It really gives you a nice flexibility and mana infusion...you can for example cast Tarok and Iron Golem turn 3 (both 13 mana) by using Fellella's mana.

Why don't you cast the Vine Tree in the first round? It's cheaper than the familiar, and it increases your channeling at the same time. I'd recommend that you switch them (Harmonizing the tree here if you like).
As I can tap Fellella's mana by using Decoy I simply prefer having her out. I can use her mana (via Decoy) to cast anything - the VTree's casting is restricted.

With your current creatures I'd suggest Power Strike over Vampiric Strike. It's Novice as well, so 2x would only cost you 2 points. Though I am curious why you chose the Iron Golem in particular.
Yea, maybe a good idea as I overlooked sth with VampStrike anyway (see above).
I was looking for a replacement for Galador, meaning a high cost creature, and just want to test him. High armor might help against swarmy decks and psych immu and unmoveable might help with current meta-game issues (FM  8) ) - and the artwork is cool. Also, costing 13 mana fits in nicely. I am open for suggestions for a replacement though.


It is interesting that you use the Nightshade Lotus. I find its Sleep to be too expensive.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 09:39:39 AM by gw »
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Re: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2014, 07:54:18 PM »
Thx for all the feedback.

@ sdougla2:

By my count, you only have 8 cards that Vine Tree can cast. For a mage that can excel at attrition like the Druid, I would generally want more things for my Spawnpoint to cast. You also don't have many creatures for a creature Spawnpoint build (particularly ones you can cast from that Spawnpoint).
As mana is limited I like to let the VTree collect some mana for 3-4 turns, so I don't need many vines. Also, imho there aren't that many good vines atm.

There isn't much point in letting mana collect - that's just wasting the actions the vine tree gives you. Better to cast lots of cheap vine spells at every opportunity. If you can't decide what to cast on a particular turn, you can always just cast a seedling pod.

Also, nearly every vine spell is very good, and thornlasher is amazing.

Vine Snapper - extremely cheap for the punch that it packs.
Raptor Vine - very strong
Thornlasher - see comments below
Tanglevine - has always been very useful for retraining important creatures
Bloodspine Wall - fantastic for the Druid, since it doesn't block LOS
Orchid/Lotus - see below.

These at the very least are a must have in any Druid-Vine deck.

Why no Thornlashers? It seems like they would work well with your Iron Golem and provide you with some more position control.You have no worthwhile ways to buff a swarm aside from acid [hmm?], making Thunderdrift Falcons seem like an odd choice.
I don't think Thornlashers are good. You can maybe set up a nice highway or sth. which is probably fun but apart from that I don't really like them. Thunderift Falcons are in because : cheap and flying.

Thornlashers are amazing, especially given the synergy with other vines. Consider:
- Pair thornlashers with vine snappers to get enemy creatures into their range
- Follow a thornlasher attack with a quickcast tanglevine to keep the enemy right where you want them
- Put orchid/lotus in thornlasher's zone to follow a snatch with an action burst attack.
- Drag an enemy screaming through a bloodspine wall. I slaughtered one unfortunate necromancer this way. As a bonus, they can't return to the zone they were just in without passing through the wall again.
- They are a ranged 0-1 unit, which means they can get around the flame damage barrier, a major threat to the Druid. This played a significant role in one of my games.

I have 4 copies in my druid book, and usually cast at least 3 of them.

@Aylin
I would never Harmonize Fellella. The most mana she can contribute to any spell is 2, so if she's Harmonized and then doesn't cast an enchantment one turn for some reason, she's got mana sitting on her that can't ever be used (unless you Shift it away, but...)
This is where Decoy comes in handy. It really gives you a nice flexibility and mana infusion...you can for example cast Tarok and Iron Golem turn 3 (both 13 mana) by using Fellella's mana.

Why don't you cast the Vine Tree in the first round? It's cheaper than the familiar, and it increases your channeling at the same time. I'd recommend that you switch them (Harmonizing the tree here if you like).
As I can tap Fellella's mana by using Decoy I simply prefer having her out. I can use her mana (via Decoy) to cast anything - the VTree's casting is restricted.

If your objective is to increase your mana supply, Fellella + Decoy + Harmonize is a waste of actions. A few mana flowers will give you a return on your investment much faster and more cheaply, and does not require dedicating space in your deck to decoys. Fellella's advantage is the action advantage. I can see including a few decoys in case Fellella has nothing better to do, but using her actions expressly for this purpose is inefficient. I agree with Aylin - there is not much point in harmonizing an enchantment-casting familiar, because if she ever does not cast a spell the additional mana is wasted (If Fellella has 3 mana and 2 channeling, 1 mana will never be used). The tree is a much better target. It's restricted to vines, sure, but vines are pretty great.

It is interesting that you use the Nightshade Lotus. I find its Sleep to be too expensive.

The Lotus and Orchids' value goes beyond their mist ability, which is really just a nice bonus (sort of like an effect that occurs when a creature enters play, except that you can save it for later). Their main value is the fact that they are conjurations with attacks. As Wizard Tower and Ballista have demonstrated, conjuration attacks are more useful than creature attacks because they follow quickcast timing rather than creature timing. Specifically:

- They can attack as soon as they are cast.
- They can attack during the same turn as another creature, which is especially relevant with Thornlasher (who combos well with pretty much all rooted attackers).
- The Orchid has a chance at corroding.
- They are vines, so the Druid can quickcast (!) them pretty much anywhere or deploy them with the tree to be used immediately (again - they can attack as soon as they are cast!)
- They have unavoidable ranged attacks - as with thornlasher, this also protects them from the flame damage barrier. Useful against creatures with defenses.

Aylin

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Re: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2014, 09:03:10 PM »
Thx for all the feedback.

@ sdougla2:
As mana is limited I like to let the VTree collect some mana for 3-4 turns, so I don't need many vines. Also, imho there aren't that many good vines atm.

The point of the vine tree is the action advantage it gives you. Combined with the Spreading Vines ability, it is the Druid's biggest strength since it can deploy to almost anywhere on the board. No other spawnpoint even comes close to having such a wide variety of possible deployments and incredible range. The Druid, despite having lots of defensive tools, plays best in my experience offensively.

Since you'd be using Fellela as well, you could deploy a Raptor Vine, enchant it with Bear Strength, Rouse it, and still do something else all in a single round, as an example.

Quote
Why no Thornlashers? It seems like they would work well with your Iron Golem and provide you with some more position control.You have no worthwhile ways to buff a swarm aside from acid [hmm?],

Acid attacks can lower the armour of large targets, which has the same effect as giving your creatures Piercing +X against those targets (X=# of Corrode markers).

Quote
[/color]making Thunderdrift Falcons seem like an odd choice.
I don't think Thornlashers are good. You can maybe set up a nice highway or sth. which is probably fun but apart from that I don't really like them. Thunderift Falcons are in because : cheap and flying.

The big thing with Thornlashers is 5+ = Snatch. It's great against Interceptors. If you want to hit the enemy mage but s/he is guarded by an interceptor guard, attack with the Thornlasher. If it's intercepted, you can use a stronger creature to hit the enemy mage. If it isn't intercept, the attack has a 58.3% chance of pulling the mage away from the guard, letting you attack freely. You can also pull into Teleport/Hellfire Traps, attacking conjurations (Orchids and Lotuses), through a Bloodspine Wall, or simply into the zone with your Raptor Vines (saving you the mana cost of Uproot).

They aren't required, and the damage from their attack isn't much to speak of. But the tactical advantage of Snatch shouldn't be overlooked.

Quote
Why run Deflection Bracers over Cobra Reflexes in a Fellella build, particularly when Cobra Reflexes is 2 spellpoints and Deflection Bracers is 3?
I did but CobraReflexes feels so expensive. Bracers 6 mana , Cobra 9 mana. I mean on paper it's only 3 mana but it feels different. As I have access to 4 actions (if needed) I like to keep it cheap - revealing Fellella's enchantments costs mana too  >:(

Something you should consider with Cobra Reflexes is the surprise reveal factor. Especially good if you can reveal it to avoid a Fireball or Hurl Boulder. Deflection Bracers don't give you nearly the same benefit.


Quote
@Aylin
I would never Harmonize Fellella. The most mana she can contribute to any spell is 2, so if she's Harmonized and then doesn't cast an enchantment one turn for some reason, she's got mana sitting on her that can't ever be used (unless you Shift it away, but...)
This is where Decoy comes in handy. It really gives you a nice flexibility and mana infusion...you can for example cast Tarok and Iron Golem turn 3 (both 13 mana) by using Fellella's mana.

Using Decoy to transfer mana to your mage doesn't address the issue I mentioned. If you're going to do that, you should simply Harmonize yourself.

Quote
Why don't you cast the Vine Tree in the first round? It's cheaper than the familiar, and it increases your channeling at the same time. I'd recommend that you switch them (Harmonizing the tree here if you like).
As I can tap Fellella's mana by using Decoy I simply prefer having her out. I can use her mana (via Decoy) to cast anything - the VTree's casting is restricted.

The point of using the Vine Tree to summon something is the Action Advantage. Using Fellela to cast a Decroy to give you enough mana puts you behind on actions.

Quote
With your current creatures I'd suggest Power Strike over Vampiric Strike. It's Novice as well, so 2x would only cost you 2 points. Though I am curious why you chose the Iron Golem in particular.
Yea, maybe a good idea as I overlooked sth with VampStrike anyway (see above).
I was looking for a replacement for Galador, meaning a high cost creature, and just want to test him. High armor might help against swarmy decks and psych immu and unmoveable might help with current meta-game issues (FM  8) ) - and the artwork is cool. Also, costing 13 mana fits in nicely. I am open for suggestions for a replacement though.

Iron Golem is a really powerful creature, the problem is that the Druid can only afford to support it with Teleport and possibly Power Strike, since Charge is so expensive to take.

Kralathor is probably better than the Golem for swarms though. It's reach means it can still eat bats or falcons, and every time it kills something it gets stronger meaning after eating one or two it'll have a good chance of one-shotting most creatures the opponent has. Not being slow also helps with eliminating spread out creatures. Plus, since it's a living vine you could deploy it with Vine Tree and support it with the Nature Buffs from Fellela.

If you face a lot of Forcemasters the Iron Golem might be more useful to you, but you'll need to make some room for more Teleports and some Charges in that case. I think overall Kralathor fits better though.

Quote
It is interesting that you use the Nightshade Lotus. I find its Sleep to be too expensive.

Iirc the cost to sleep on the Lotus is less than or equal to the cost of Sleep itself, and it bypasses Nullify.
[/quote]

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Re: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2014, 03:11:06 AM »
I will see the deck in RL action today again so this will probably lead to some new impressions and some changes.
Let me address only a few points please and even if I argue against them I do appreciate your input as it makes me think about stuff  8)

Thornlashers are good.
I can imagine some nice situations / tricky plays with Thornsnappers but I just don't set them up/play for them. Maybe that's simply a playstyle thing.
If I want to get rid of an opponent's guard I can simply Tanglevine the guard or become elusive or ... - I do see the counterargument that Thornlashers are a permanent but at the moment for me the "good at removing/snatching guards" is not enough.

Purpose of Spawnpoints is the action advantage. Saving mana is a waste.
Yes, still (reasonable) actions are limited by mana, so it might not be possible to use them every turn.
Let's assume : QC Mage, Action Mage, Fellella, Reveal Ench, Vine Tree are 5 actions/ turn - or 4+Fellella.
I do not think there is a current spellbook that generates an amount of mana needed to pay for all these actions every turn(?).
Quote
Since you'd be using Fellela as well, you could deploy a Raptor Vine, enchant it with Bear Strength, Rouse it, and still do something else all in a single round, as an example.
Yes, turns like this happen but they are not affordable every round.

Quote
You have no worthwhile ways to buff a swarm aside from acid,
I am irritated by the word "buff" as I understand it as "putting a (permanent) positive effect on sth" ... so in my vocabulary "acid" isn't a buff. Also, I don't see how acid helps defending against a swarm (=lots of creatures). Problem is that I don't understand why I would like to buff my opponents swarm and what that has to do with acid.
I simply do not understand what is meant  :) :)

My thoughts about Nightshade Lotus :
a Sleep that can be cast by my spawnpoint wherever I have a vine => total cost: casting cost (7) + effect (level +2) = 9 + Level = more expensive than a sleep incantation, eg: for level 1 : 10 vs 4




« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 03:23:24 AM by gw »
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sdougla2

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Re: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2014, 03:42:48 AM »
By buffing a swarm with acid I meant that you can remove Armor with Corrode from a target that you intend to attack with your swarm. Admittedly support would have been a better word choice than buff. Large attacks are not impacted as much by armor. A 9 dice attack against a target with 2 armor is still very threatening, but 3 3 dice attacks against that same target are not nearly as frightening. As such, acid isn't very important for supporting a Steelclaw Grizzly in many circumstances, whereas it is very useful for supporting Thunderdrift Falcons.
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Aylin

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Re: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2014, 04:20:38 AM »
Thornlashers are good.
I can imagine some nice situations / tricky plays with Thornsnappers but I just don't set them up/play for them. Maybe that's simply a playstyle thing.
If I want to get rid of an opponent's guard I can simply Tanglevine the guard or become elusive or ... - I do see the counterargument that Thornlashers are a permanent but at the moment for me the "good at removing/snatching guards" is not enough.

From my previous post, which you quoted:
Quote
You can also pull into Teleport/Hellfire Traps, attacking conjurations (Orchids and Lotuses), through a Bloodspine Wall, or simply into the zone with your Raptor Vines (saving you the mana cost of Uproot).

There's more to it than bypassing guards. It's only one thing it can do, as you should know from my previous post. ACG and I have mentioned several uses of Snatch already, so reducing all of that to just the guard aspect is absurd. Plus, you can't use Elusive to get a Ranged attack by an Interceptor. Having a Thornlasher on the board means you have the ability to shift the positions of your opponents creatures, which is huge.

[quote\Purpose of Spawnpoints is the action advantage. Saving mana is a waste.
Yes, still (reasonable) actions are limited by mana, so it might not be possible to use them every turn.
Let's assume : QC Mage, Action Mage, Fellella, Reveal Ench, Vine Tree are 5 actions/ turn - or 4+Fellella.
I do not think there is a current spellbook that generates an amount of mana needed to pay for all these actions every turn(?).[/quote]

First, you won't be revealing an enchantment every turn. Many enchantments, like Teleport Trap or Healing Charm, are placed and not revealed until the proper time.

If your argument on not utilizing the Vine Tree fully is that you won't be able to afford it with Fellella also in play, then drop Fellella and use the Enchanter's Ring. She's more expensive than the Vine Tree, both in terms of mana cost and spellbook points, she doesn't generate as much mana (since the Vine Tree gives you +1 Channeling when you Bond with it), she can only cast spells at range 2 (much much smaller than range Vine), she's much easier to kill, and she has a smaller selection of spells to choose from. It is insane to make her the primary focus over the Vine Tree, unless your goal is to handicap yourself for playing against inexperienced people.

To be completely honest, I think casting Fellella on either Turn 1 or Turn 2 would be a mistake. If your opponent is using Idol of Pestilence it likely won't hit the board until Turn 3 or Turn 4, and casting the fairy early would walk right into it.

I get that you want to make Fellella a major focus in your book, but unfortunately she isn't a very powerful card. Sidelining more powerful and versatile cards for her is a mistake. I wouldn't cast her before Turn 3 at the earliest (to avoid premature death due to Idol), and you're going to want to use your Vine Tree deployment, your QC, Mage's Action, and Fellella's action almost every turn to utilize your action advantage. Using Decoy is ok, but don't make it obvious that you're transferring mana to your mage. Make your opponent think it's a Nullify, Block, Healing Charm, Zone Trap, etc, and don't reveal it unless you absolutely have to. If you're lucky your opponent might even Seeking Dispel one of them.

Quote
Quote
Since you'd be using Fellela as well, you could deploy a Raptor Vine, enchant it with Bear Strength, Rouse it, and still do something else all in a single round, as an example.
Yes, turns like this happen but they are not affordable every round.

Right... I was giving an example of something you could do with Action Advantage; a surprise 7-die creature attacking where is least expected.

Quote
You have no worthwhile ways to buff a swarm aside from acid,
I am irritated by the word "buff" as I understand it as "putting a (permanent) positive effect on sth" ... so in my vocabulary "acid" isn't a buff. Also, I don't see how acid helps defending against a swarm (=lots of creatures). Problem is that I don't understand why I would like to buff my opponents swarm and what that has to do with acid.
I simply do not understand what is meant  :) :)[/quote]

I explained this already in previous post.

Quote
My thoughts about Nightshade Lotus :
a Sleep that can be cast by my spawnpoint wherever I have a vine => total cost: casting cost (7) + effect (level +2) = 9 + Level = more expensive than a sleep incantation, eg: for level 1 : 10 vs 4
[/quote]

Ok... NO ONE sleeps a level 1 creature. Why you used that as an example, I have no idea.

Moving on, the sleep ability on the Lotus is Level + 2. A level 3 creature costs 5 to sleep, 4 costs 6, 5 costs 7, and 6 costs 8. The Lotus itself is a flat 7.

When casting Sleep, a level 3 creature costs 6, 4 costs 8, 5 costs 10, and 6 costs 12.

Now, no one sleeps anything below level 3, and most players won't sleep anything below level 4 (simply because lower-level creatures are too easy to just kill outright). So let's compare the costs of casting Sleep on level 4-6 creatures or Deploying the Lotus and using the Mist ability.

Sleep:
4: 8
5: 10
6: 12
7: 14 (one creature currently)

Deployed Lotus:
4: 6 (Vine Tree has at least 1 mana on it) + 6 = 12
5: 6 + 7 = 13
6: 6 + 8 = 14
7: 6 + 9 = 15

So you're paying 2-4 mana for a 3-die Unavoidable Ranged Attack, that sticks around and keeps hitting your opponent's creatures (including the slept one if something else wakes it up).

It also gets around Nullify (so nothing your opponent can do unless they brought along Mind Shield, which most players overlook) and costs one less spellbook point than Sleep does for a Druid. For what it does, that's cheap. Plus it combos well with Thornlasher, even after the Mist ability is used.

ACG

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Re: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2014, 06:31:32 AM »
It also gets around Nullify (so nothing your opponent can do unless they brought along Mind Shield, which most players overlook) and costs one less spellbook point than Sleep does for a Druid. For what it does, that's cheap. Plus it combos well with Thornlasher, even after the Mist ability is used.

Actually, even mind shield will not protect against Poison Sleep Mist. Mind Shield only works against psychic spells and attacks, and using the mist token is not either of those.

Aylin

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Re: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2014, 10:01:08 AM »
It also gets around Nullify (so nothing your opponent can do unless they brought along Mind Shield, which most players overlook) and costs one less spellbook point than Sleep does for a Druid. For what it does, that's cheap. Plus it combos well with Thornlasher, even after the Mist ability is used.

Actually, even mind shield will not protect against Poison Sleep Mist. Mind Shield only works against psychic spells and attacks, and using the mist token is not either of those.

Opps! Good catch, thanks!

gw

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Re: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2014, 11:19:13 AM »
There's more to it than bypassing guards. It's only one thing it can do, as you should know from my previous post. ACG and I have mentioned several uses of Snatch already, so reducing all of that to just the guard aspect is absurd.
I didn't reduce it, I refered to the other options as "tricky play which simply does not fit my playstyle" and is a whole different deck concept. The only suggestion which looked interesting to me for my deck was the guard aspect.

I get that you want to make Fellella a major focus in your book, but unfortunately she isn't a very powerful card.
I disagree.

I explained this already in previous post.
No, you didn't. Your explanation didn't make any sense in that context, it was merely a rulebook definiton of acid. Also, it wasn't you who wrote in the first place.

Sleep:
4: 8
5: 10
6: 12
7: 14 (one creature currently)

Deployed Lotus:
4: 6 (Vine Tree has at least 1 mana on it) + 6 = 12
5: 6 + 7 = 13
6: 6 + 8 = 14
7: 6 + 9 = 15

Not sure why you put a discount on the Lotus calculation as VineTree channeling for other mages would simply be replaced by ManaCrystal income or whatever, as the VineTree is only a class-specific way of building up a mana income - which every class does.
On level 4-5 you then have a difference of 8 to 13 (=5) and 10 to 14 (=4) - not 2-3 as you mentioned. Also, I do not really care about their 3 attack dice because the purpose I have them in my deck for is not as a damage dealer but as a reliable Sleep-caster. I also think that -ignoring the difference in costs- the Sleep condition is not worth the sheer amount of 13+ mana.


---

Had a nice session with my friends yesterday and had plenty of opportunity to playtest things. Some impressions on stuff I was concerned with or how things worked out :

Modified my starting strategy a bit to have the possibility to be more aggro, which went quite well and let to some early resigns:
1. Fellella + Harmo
2. Vinetree + Harmo (by F.) and now not ShiftingEnchantment but using the FullAction to move to NC.
from then on just spread vines to my opponent, equipped my mage and kept casting Raptors via the Vines, while my mage participated in battle. I think one game was over after 10 minutes.

Actually, as Aylin pointed out, having a harmonized Fellella puts a lot of pressure on you to not "miss a beat".
I now also think it is better to ShiftEnchantment Fellella's Harmonize on my mage and keep the other Harmo on the VTree (did it vice versa before). This action is a nice low cost (=1 mana) way to save some mana for the next round which can easily be done when in doubt if you have anything meaningful to do. (or lack the mana :) )

One nice experience was one game against a FM using Thoughtspore + Invis Stalker which my Tarok and Falcons handled easily. I more and more come to think that "Flying" is the best trait around atm.

Apart from a standard game vs. GateToVoltari Wizard, the rematch with some modification to the Wizard deck developed into an epic 3 hour to the hilt clash of Titans which was tons of fun :)
The game had several interesting phases and plays but one phase was of special interest. The Wizard managed to get out a Teleport-Wand (previously, for 2-3 rounds a HealingWand) which I just couldn't get rid of. Range for Dissolve or Mana+Timing for Orchid - there always was something that didn't work out. Still, I had enough pressure on the board that this actually didn't matter that much. Lesson learned : If a wand hits the table, no need to panic.

Letting a harmonized VTree gather 4-6 mana (=2-3 turns) and then having him cast a Raptor feels like a nice rhythm when playing (situational deviations ofc).

Fellella + Decoy = Imba  8) (just kidding, but Decoy kicks a** and Fellella is the one who makes it worth playing.)

Wanted to test IronGolem but casted him in 0 of the games. So he is out again.

Some thoughts on "Defense"
Person 1 : "My mage always fails the defensive rolls. That sucks. It feel I roll better when creatures defend."
Person 2 : "Defense is not a relevant concept for a mage. A defense roll is there to psychologically scare your opponent away from attacking. A creature with a defense roll is less often attacked because it might mean a waste of action. Being attacked less often = defense works.
This does not apply to the mage as he must be attacked - attacking the mage is the purpose of game. You can't scare someone away from attacking him.""

New Deck :
Druid

---  Attack  ---
2 Force Hammer
2 Acid Ball
1 Surging Wave

---  Conjuration  ---
1 Vine Tree
3 Tanglevine
1 Corrosive Orchid
1 Enchanter's Wardstone

---  Creature  ---
1 Fellella, Pixie Familiar
4 Raptor Vine
1 Tarok, the Skyhunter
2 Thunderift Falcon
1 Guardian Angel

---  Enchantment  ---
2 Harmonize
2 Rhino Hide
1 Block
2 Nullify
1 Teleport Trap
1 Healing Charm
4 Bear Strength
1 Mongoose Agility
4 Decoy
1 Falcon Precision
1 Barkskin
2 Bull Endurance

---  Equipment  ---
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Mage Staff
1 Mage Wand
1 Veterans Belt
1 Dragonscale Hauberk
1 Wand of Healing

---  Incantation  ---
4 Dispel
4 Dissolve
3 Rouse the Beast
1 Shift Enchantment
2 Teleport
2 Burst of Thorns
1 Seeking Dispel


« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 11:41:09 AM by gw »
OCTGN: gw (GMT+1 currently)

Aylin

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Re: Druid deck with Fellella (in development)
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2014, 11:36:50 PM »
Quote
I explained this already in previous post.
No, you didn't. Your explanation didn't make any sense in that context, it was merely a rulebook definiton of acid.

I explained to you, in response to your quoted question, that using Acid Ball against large armoured targets had the same effect as giving all of your creatures additional Piercing for all of their attacks against it (thus "buffing" your creatures). I've yet to see a rulebook that explains that. Perhaps you have a special copy?

Quote
Also, it wasn't you who wrote in the first place.

When did that become a requirement to answer a question?

Quote
Not sure why you put a discount on the Lotus calculation as VineTree channeling for other mages would simply be replaced by ManaCrystal income or whatever, as the VineTree is only a class-specific way of building up a mana income - which every class does.

That isn't what I did. If you had read what I posted, you would have seen that I was talking about deploying the Nightshade Lotus. The fact that a Treebonded Vine Tree increases your channeling by 1 is irrelevant.

Quote
On level 4-5 you then have a difference of 8 to 13 (=5) and 10 to 14 (=4)

I'm not sure if you made a mistake here or you're trying to be deliberately dishonest for some reason, but you're comparing Sleep against a level 4 creature (8 mana) to deploying and using Lotus' Mist ability against a level 5 creature (13), and you do the same thing again when you compare Sleep against a level 5 (10) and Lotus against a level 6 (14).

Quote
- not 2-3 as you mentioned.

I actually said it was 2-4. I would have said 1-4, but with only a single level 7 creature that rarely sees play it wouldn't have been honest.

[/quote]Also, I do not really care about their 3 attack dice because the purpose I have them in my deck for is not as a damage dealer but as a reliable Sleep-caster.[/quote]

It's like Explode; you don't take Explode to deal damage, but rather to eliminate equipment. What's great about Explode though (especially for mages trained in Fire), is that you get your intended effect (destroying equipment) AND you deal damage all in one action.

Nightshade Lotus is like that for the Druid, except that it can also be deployed, be cast at a further range, it's cheaper to put into the book than Sleep, and it bypasses Nullify. The 3-die attack isn't the point of it; it's a bonus you get for a little extra mana. Unlike Explode however, the Lotus stays around hitting your opponent's living creatures/conjurations unless they spend actions to destroy it.

Quote
I also think that -ignoring the difference in costs- the Sleep condition is not worth the sheer amount of 13+ mana.

Sleep is a very situational condition, but it combos well with other things. Sleep + Teleport (ideally putting the creature 3-4 zones away from the enemy mage) can be very nasty to Elite creature books, for example. You almost always spend less doing that than they spent summoning the creature, and in order to get their creature back they have to devote actions; both to getting there and then either hitting it or using the Wand of Healing, at which point the creature is still Dazed. You can use it with Quicksand to kill a creature unless your opponent devotes a Teleport to saving it. At the very least, you cost you opponent actions which is huge.

I hope that finally answers your question as to why I include them in my Druid book. Whether you use them or not is up to you, but I would suggest you try  having one in your book before you write them off.

Quote
Actually, as Aylin pointed out, having a harmonized Fellella puts a lot of pressure on you to not "miss a beat".
I now also think it is better to ShiftEnchantment Fellella's Harmonize on my mage and keep the other Harmo on the VTree (did it vice versa before). This action is a nice low cost (=1 mana) way to save some mana for the next round which can easily be done when in doubt if you have anything meaningful to do. (or lack the mana :) )

Don't cast Harmonize with the intention of Shifting it to your mage later. You save a total of one mana, but spend an extra action doing it. Plus you no longer have the Shift Enchantment to use later on.

Quote
One nice experience was one game against a FM using Thoughtspore + Invis Stalker which my Tarok and Falcons handled easily. I more and more come to think that "Flying" is the best trait around atm.

Flying is indeed powerful if you have nothing that can deal with it. I wouldn't say it's the best though because for most mages it's very easy to counter (Necromancer having the hardest time atm).

Quote
Some thoughts on "Defense"
Person 1 : "My mage always fails the defensive rolls. That sucks. It feel I roll better when creatures defend."
Person 2 : "Defense is not a relevant concept for a mage. A defense roll is there to psychologically scare your opponent away from attacking. A creature with a defense roll is less often attacked because it might mean a waste of action. Being attacked less often = defense works.
This does not apply to the mage as he must be attacked - attacking the mage is the purpose of game. You can't scare someone away from attacking him.""

Having defenses on your mage discourages opponents from using powerful attack spells against you, such as Hurl Boulder or Fireball, as well as forcing them to put out Falcon Precision(s) if they have a melee-focused non-swarm book. Defense is good, even on a mage. At most it might have less value on a mage than on a generic creature, but I've never seen an opponent not attack one of my creatures just because it had a defense on it.

Quote
New Deck :
Druid

---  Attack  ---
2 Force Hammer
2 Acid Ball
1 Surging Wave

---  Conjuration  ---
1 Vine Tree
3 Tanglevine
1 Corrosive Orchid
1 Enchanter's Wardstone

---  Creature  ---
1 Fellella, Pixie Familiar
4 Raptor Vine
1 Tarok, the Skyhunter
2 Thunderift Falcon
1 Guardian Angel

---  Enchantment  ---
2 Harmonize
2 Rhino Hide
1 Block
2 Nullify
1 Teleport Trap
1 Healing Charm
4 Bear Strength
1 Mongoose Agility
4 Decoy
1 Falcon Precision
1 Barkskin
2 Bull Endurance

---  Equipment  ---
1 Elemental Cloak
1 Mage Staff
1 Mage Wand
1 Veterans Belt
1 Dragonscale Hauberk
1 Wand of Healing

---  Incantation  ---
4 Dispel
4 Dissolve
3 Rouse the Beast
1 Shift Enchantment
2 Teleport
2 Burst of Thorns
1 Seeking Dispel

The biggest issue I have with your book is that you still only have eight vines. That makes it much harder to utilize either your Vine Tree or your Spreading Vines ability. It's like shooting your mage in the foot before the match even starts.