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Author Topic: The Blasting Banker  (Read 26818 times)

Alexander West

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Re: The Blasting Banker
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2014, 11:28:09 PM »
@DeckBuilder:  I am glad you found my observations to be useful.  I am also delighted that you have found that the great wheel of the metagame spins ever forward.  The druid book from your testing looks brutally efficient!  :)

Glad to hear you had some fun games with the BB!
Its easy to say afterwards but I always thought Druid is the best candidate to beat BB. Treebond and Barkskin are awesome to help surive BBs blast. Summoning plants with the Vine Trees action on top of conjurations is great too as well as using Tanglevine and stuck markers on the BB to make him use his teleports. Maybe even more important are the cheap Dissolves+Acid Balls and the great in school heavy hitter (Grizzly).
I feel its time to say it again! Its (almost) all about spellpoints! What makes the BB such a successful build IMO is that his main strategy heavily depends on in school spells and the build does not need any level two or higher out of school spells (in the latest iteration I removed Dancing Scimitar). This allows the BB to have 2-3 copies of the most important spells and still be flexible enough to adjust to many different builds.
The Druid is such a formidable opponent against the BB since he is very spellpoint efficient as well! He can include many Acid Balls, Dissolves and Dispels needed to beat BB and still have enough spellpoints left for a couple medium/big in school creatures and many in school enchants to be well suited against other builds than the BB.

@Suppression Orb:
Im sure it will work great with this build but I dont want to spend too many spellpoints for stuff only useful against multi creature mages. If I play against a solo mage all the spellpoints put into Obelisk, Essence Drain and Suppression Orb will be useless in that game. Anyway, if I accept to spend four more Spellpoints into stuff only useful against creature builds, I would prefer two Essence Drain over Obelisk since I guess in the majority of situations they will cost him more mana than the Obelisk. Even if he dispels them, he will have lost 2-3 mana compared to what I invested and that dispel wont be used against BBs valuable Regrowth/Rhino Hide later.
You mentioned Siphon. I can see that spell is very useful for the BB and it works against all mages (not only creature builds). So I will test it out soon. Thx for that advice!
Btw I removed the bat ;).

@Charmyna:  1) A point of curiosity: Did the Philosophy of Fire post contribute to the shaping of the BB book?  If so, I'm curious about your thoughts on the subject.  (Either here or there, as appropriate.)

2) I think it might be best to accept a few SB points that are "worthless" against one kind of book and "amazing" against another book, rather than a book full of "medium" quality spells that work everywhere.  I have found in most matches I only use the same 80-90 points worth of spells.  To me, this means I should be spending the other 30-40 points on "silver bullets" to gain great advantage in the right circumstances, or to help with a big problem with my book.

I recognize that if your book is more "controlling", or relies on "attrition" or a long game, you will need to use more of your SB points over the course of the match.  So, maybe for the style of book you seem to play, you might regularly use the same 100-120 points in a single match as opposed to the 80-90 in the styles I have been playing.  Even so, perhaps even as few as 10 points of silver bullets might be very helpful?

3) I completely agree that the Druid is the natural (*har* *har*) counter to any solo build.  Between Barkskin and her tree, she can get so much more regeneration and armor relative to all the other characters that attacking her life total is highly ineffective.  If mage assassination isn't an available path to victory, the game must become one of attrition.  With a great spawnpoint, and a range of spell training that allows a full and flexible book, she is very good at attrition.  My current opinion is that she vies with the Wizard for the title of best mage, and I think it's very close between the two.  (It has a lot to do with Arcane and Nature having most of the best cards split between them, but also with strong stat cards and class-only cards.)
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Charmyna

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Re: The Blasting Banker
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2014, 11:08:49 AM »
@Charmyna:  1) A point of curiosity: Did the Philosophy of Fire post contribute to the shaping of the BB book?  If so, I'm curious about your thoughts on the subject.  (Either here or there, as appropriate.)

The BB arose from the Force Push+Wall of Thorns+Wizard Tower Strategy. After I made a build that relied on this combo I thought a fire spell based version might be more reliable since it can still do nice damage even if the opponent has two armor/Divine Protection. The next step was to narrow the time needed to kill the opponent and to overwhelm him with banked actions.
The Philosophy of Fire is a great post which mentions many important aspects of an aggro deck! What I tried to focus on with the BB besides the ideas incorporated in the Philosophy of Fire is the banking of mana/actions. Before BB I thought its best to invest most of your mana asap to get a return on investment  soon. After playing BB I think the opposite is the case (at least for this build and similar): Banking mana while waiting what the opponent does, allows you to use the mana later in a way that makes the actions/mana spent by your opponent as inefficient as possible and your actions/mana as efficient as possible. In my experience it works great to wait and see instead of aiming for the fastest ROI. Btw I do for sure not advice not to use your actions! In many games I feel like if one mage does only cast one spell per round for several rounds its almost gg. Use as many actions as possible! But if you can save some mana to be able to react appropriate (at least this works great if playing the BB since he has time).


2) I think it might be best to accept a few SB points that are "worthless" against one kind of book and "amazing" against another book, rather than a book full of "medium" quality spells that work everywhere.  I have found in most matches I only use the same 80-90 points worth of spells.  To me, this means I should be spending the other 30-40 points on "silver bullets" to gain great advantage in the right circumstances, or to help with a big problem with my book.

I dont mind putting in a couple silver bullets. I just prefer in school silver bullets over out of school ones and I dont want to overcommit.
If I feel that more silver is needed against some builds I might include more. But atm I dont ;).
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 06:03:51 PM by Charmyna »

Charmyna

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Re: The Blasting Banker
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2014, 03:43:00 AM »
Edit: Sorry for the double post.

Newest Iteration of the BB:

Attack Spells:
Surging Wave   1
Jet Stream   1
Fireball   3
Flameblast   2

Conjurations:
Wizards Tower   1
Hand of Bim-Shalla   1
Mana Crystal   1
Battle Forge   2
Mordok's Obelisk   1
Enchanters Wardstone  1
Mana Syphon 1


Enchantments:
Nullify      5
Rhino Hide   3
Regrowth   2
Poisoned Blood   1
Enchantment Transfusion   3
Essence Drain   1
Agony      1
Divine Protection   1
Force Orb   1

Equipment:
Mage Wand   4
Dragonscale Hauberk   4
Leather Gloves   1
Leather Boots   1
Veterants Belt   2
Fireshaper Ring   1
Moonglow Amulet   1
Wand of Healing   2
Suppression Cloak   2
Deflection Bracers   1
Eagleclaw Boots    1
Arcane Ring   1
Elemental Wand   1

Incantations:
Teleport   2
Dispel      6
Seeking Dispel   4
Dissolve   6
Minor Heal   1
Explode 1

Removed some level two out of school spells (Dancing Scimitar, Armor Ward) and included some more defensive equips/enchants - especially Eagleclaw Boots in case the BB gets trapped in a zone with two Walls.
Added a 2nd Suppression Cloak since its just too good against creature builds and added a 2nd Healing Wand to help against Corrode Tokens.
Also removed Geyser since its main purpose was to remove burn tokens which can be mimicked with surging wave.
Added Mana Syphon thanks to DeckBuilders advice (havent tested it much but im sure its good).
Changed Acid Ball for Explode since after I play Wizards Tower I usually dont play Acid Ball anyway and just use the Dissolve on the Mage Wand if I need to remove Armor.

sshroom

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Re: The Blasting Banker
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2014, 05:47:59 AM »
@Charmyna:  1) A point of curiosity: Did the Philosophy of Fire post contribute to the shaping of the BB book?  If so, I'm curious about your thoughts on the subject.  (Either here or there, as appropriate.)

The BB arose from the Force Push+Wall of Thorns+Wizard Tower Strategy. After I made a build that relied on this combo I thought a fire spell based version might be more reliable since it can still do nice damage even if the opponent has two armor/Divine Protection. The next step was to narrow the time needed to kill the opponent and to overwhelm him with banked actions.
The Philosophy of Fire is a great post which mentions many important aspects of an aggro deck! What I tried to focus on with the BB besides the ideas incorporated in the Philosophy of Fire is the banking of mana/actions. Before BB I thought its best to invest most of your mana asap to get a return on investment  soon. After playing BB I think the opposite is the case (at least for this build and similar): Banking mana while waiting what the opponent does, allows you to use the mana later in a way that makes the actions/mana spent by your opponent as inefficient as possible and your actions/mana as efficient as possible. In my experience it works great to wait and see instead of aiming for the fastest ROI. Btw I do for sure not advice not to use your actions! In many games I feel like if one mage does only cast one spell per round for several rounds its almost gg. Use as many actions as possible! But if you can save some mana to be able to react appropriate (at least this works great if playing the BB since he has time).


2) I think it might be best to accept a few SB points that are "worthless" against one kind of book and "amazing" against another book, rather than a book full of "medium" quality spells that work everywhere.  I have found in most matches I only use the same 80-90 points worth of spells.  To me, this means I should be spending the other 30-40 points on "silver bullets" to gain great advantage in the right circumstances, or to help with a big problem with my book.

I dont mind putting in a couple silver bullets. I just prefer in school silver bullets over out of school ones and I dont want to overcommit.
If I feel that more silver is needed against some builds I might include more. But atm I dont ;).
@Charmyna:  1) A point of curiosity: Did the Philosophy of Fire post contribute to the shaping of the BB book?  If so, I'm curious about your thoughts on the subject.  (Either here or there, as appropriate.)

The BB arose from the Force Push+Wall of Thorns+Wizard Tower Strategy. After I made a build that relied on this combo I thought a fire spell based version might be more reliable since it can still do nice damage even if the opponent has two armor/Divine Protection. The next step was to narrow the time needed to kill the opponent and to overwhelm him with banked actions.
The Philosophy of Fire is a great post which mentions many important aspects of an aggro deck! What I tried to focus on with the BB besides the ideas incorporated in the Philosophy of Fire is the banking of mana/actions. Before BB I thought its best to invest most of your mana asap to get a return on investment  soon. After playing BB I think the opposite is the case (at least for this build and similar): Banking mana while waiting what the opponent does, allows you to use the mana later in a way that makes the actions/mana spent by your opponent as inefficient as possible and your actions/mana as efficient as possible. In my experience it works great to wait and see instead of aiming for the fastest ROI. Btw I do for sure not advice not to use your actions! In many games I feel like if one mage does only cast one spell per round for several rounds its almost gg. Use as many actions as possible! But if you can save some mana to be able to react appropriate (at least this works great if playing the BB since he has time).


2) I think it might be best to accept a few SB points that are "worthless" against one kind of book and "amazing" against another book, rather than a book full of "medium" quality spells that work everywhere.  I have found in most matches I only use the same 80-90 points worth of spells.  To me, this means I should be spending the other 30-40 points on "silver bullets" to gain great advantage in the right circumstances, or to help with a big problem with my book.

I dont mind putting in a couple silver bullets. I just prefer in school silver bullets over out of school ones and I dont want to overcommit.
If I feel that more silver is needed against some builds I might include more. But atm I dont ;).
Edit: Sorry for the double post.

Newest Iteration of the BB:

Attack Spells:
Surging Wave   1
Jet Stream   1
Fireball   3
Flameblast   2

Conjurations:
Wizards Tower   1
Hand of Bim-Shalla   1
Mana Crystal   1
Battle Forge   2
Mordok's Obelisk   1
Enchanters Wardstone  1
Mana Syphon 1


Enchantments:
Nullify      5
Rhino Hide   3
Regrowth   2
Poisoned Blood   1
Enchantment Transfusion   3
Essence Drain   1
Agony      1
Divine Protection   1
Force Orb   1

Equipment:
Mage Wand   4
Dragonscale Hauberk   4
Leather Gloves   1
Leather Boots   1
Veterants Belt   2
Fireshaper Ring   1
Moonglow Amulet   1
Wand of Healing   2
Suppression Cloak   2
Deflection Bracers   1
Eagleclaw Boots    1
Arcane Ring   1
Elemental Wand   1

Incantations:
Teleport   2
Dispel      6
Seeking Dispel   4
Dissolve   6
Minor Heal   1
Explode 1

Removed some level two out of school spells (Dancing Scimitar, Armor Ward) and included some more defensive equips/enchants - especially Eagleclaw Boots in case the BB gets trapped in a zone with two Walls.
Added a 2nd Suppression Cloak since its just too good against creature builds and added a 2nd Healing Wand to help against Corrode Tokens.
Also removed Geyser since its main purpose was to remove burn tokens which can be mimicked with surging wave.
Added Mana Syphon thanks to DeckBuilders advice (havent tested it much but im sure its good).
Changed Acid Ball for Explode since after I play Wizards Tower I usually dont play Acid Ball anyway and just use the Dissolve on the Mage Wand if I need to remove Armor.

Man Wizards are just sick. It's sad because with all the variety of spells in the game it's usually true that dissolving/dispelling/teleporting the other Mage into oblivion is simply the best play. Whatever strategy the enemy may have is typically neutralized (or at least severely hindered) by these spells which only the Wiz can have in such abundance. All the while saving enough points to have plenty of armor(4 hauberks! 2 veterans belts!)/mage wands (4!)/ neutralize/healing wand + voltaric to be nigh invulnerable to any attacks, not to mention auxilliary mana deny module to further set the opponent back. He's just way too good. Thankfully we have a no Wizards agreement in our local meta. Matches are much more interesting without such a gross imbalance in effectiveness.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 05:52:51 AM by sshroom »

Charmyna

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Re: The Blasting Banker
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2014, 06:02:02 AM »
Man Wizards are just sick. It's sad because with all the variety of spells in the game it's usually true that dissolving/dispelling/teleporting the other Mage into oblivion is simply the best play. Whatever strategy the enemy may have is typically neutralized (or at least severely hindered) by these spells which only the Wiz can have in such abundance. All the while saving enough points to have plenty of armor(4 hauberks! 2 veterans belts!)/mage wands (4!)/ neutralize/healing wand + voltaric to be nigh invulnerable to any attacks, not to mention auxilliary mana deny module to further set the opponent back. He's just way too good. Thankfully we have a no Wizards agreement in our local meta. Matches are much more interesting without such a gross imbalance in effectiveness.

Well, you can easily include 4-5 Dispels and 5-6 Dissolves in any spell book (I do in almost every). Only the  water wizard gets (Seeking) Dispel and Dissolve for cheap. All other Wizards have to pay the same spellpoints as a druid for the combo Dispel+Dissolve. And you need to remember that the BB is all about equipment/Enchantment and removal of those. You could build a similar spellbook with the Druid or maybe the Warlock/Necro.
Dont get me wrong, I agree wizard is the strongest from all mages and I believe he will be nerfed in some way soon. Even though I play wizard alot I would welcome an errata actually since I believe its for the healthiness of the game.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2014, 06:04:43 AM by Charmyna »

Alexander West

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Re: The Blasting Banker
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2014, 05:44:51 PM »
I think original Beastmaster, Druid, and Wizard are all tier 1 mages.  In the post-Corrode metagame, I am also willing to believe Priestess might be very close at tier 1.5 thanks to her strength vs. Corrode.

I'd rather see a few cards get printed to make the other mages stronger rather than nerfing the Wizard.  In particular, better Blood Reaper targets would make a huge difference for the Warlock.  (I'd like to see an option with Flying and maybe Elusive.)  A one-handed pushing Weapon or Shield would be great for the Warlord.  (The visuals on Shield Bashing an enemy out of my tile would be great!)  The Forcemaster needs a better Mindspore, more on the power level of Wizard's Tower or Huginn (Slow casting and fragility have really undermined its use).  Maybe a Dancing Wand to go with the Dancing Scimitar?  (Only half joking.)

@Charmyna:  You seem to be one of the acknowledged experts in the game.  What do you think each non-Wizard mage needs to bring them up to competitive playability?
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Laddinfance

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Re: The Blasting Banker
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2014, 10:25:07 PM »
@Charmyna:  You seem to be one of the acknowledged experts in the game.  What do you think each non-Wizard mage needs to bring them up to competitive playability?

This sounds like a big enough topic that it should be its own thread. I'm kinda interested in responses. Also, you wouldn't think we'd make a set with a new warlock and not give you blood reapers ;-). You'll want to watch our previews which will start soon.

Alexander West

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Re: The Blasting Banker
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2014, 02:11:58 AM »
@Charmyna:  You seem to be one of the acknowledged experts in the game.  What do you think each non-Wizard mage needs to bring them up to competitive playability?

This sounds like a big enough topic that it should be its own thread. I'm kinda interested in responses. Also, you wouldn't think we'd make a set with a new warlock and not give you blood reapers ;-). You'll want to watch our previews which will start soon.

Good bit of topic moderation, and teasing.  :)  I'm very much looking forward to seeing what comes.
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silverclawgrizzly

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Re: The Blasting Banker
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2014, 02:39:27 AM »
Don't tease me with new blood reavers! That's like those girl scouts who offer to sell me cookies but are out of thin mints!!!!! I need new demons(and thin mints) ASAP!!!!! Cant.....wait.....previews.....dying from dark creature withdrawal!!!!!

*The body of a Silverclawed Grizzly was found outside his place of work last night of an apparent implosion. Cause of implosion unknown but the bloodies corpse was found beside a note saying "Give me demons and cookies!!!!"*
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Laddinfance

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Re: The Blasting Banker
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2014, 11:05:06 AM »
Don't tease me with new blood reavers! That's like those girl scouts who offer to sell me cookies but are out of thin mints!!!!! I need new demons(and thin mints) ASAP!!!!! Cant.....wait.....previews.....dying from dark creature withdrawal!!!!!

*The body of a Silverclawed Grizzly was found outside his place of work last night of an apparent implosion. Cause of implosion unknown but the bloodies corpse was found beside a note saying "Give me demons and cookies!!!!"*

So then the "Cookie Demon" should be the first preview we do? ;-)

sIKE

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Re: The Blasting Banker
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2014, 12:02:39 PM »
Don't tease me with new blood reavers! That's like those girl scouts who offer to sell me cookies but are out of thin mints!!!!! I need new demons(and thin mints) ASAP!!!!! Cant.....wait.....previews.....dying from dark creature withdrawal!!!!!

*The body of a Silverclawed Grizzly was found outside his place of work last night of an apparent implosion. Cause of implosion unknown but the bloodies corpse was found beside a note saying "Give me demons and cookies!!!!"*
So C is for Cookie and D is for DaDa, that is good enough for me?

So then the "Cookie Demon" should be the first preview we do? ;-)
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silverclawgrizzly

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Re: The Blasting Banker
« Reply #56 on: February 26, 2014, 01:40:53 PM »
Man if there were a Cookie Demon the women in our play group would go ballistic with laughter. They already cry anytime you kill a fox.
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Re: The Blasting Banker
« Reply #57 on: February 26, 2014, 01:41:38 PM »
Though if there ever IS a cookie demon I'll personally fly out to pose for the art work.
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Dr.Cornelius

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Re: The Blasting Banker
« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2014, 03:05:40 AM »
...
Dont get me wrong, I agree wizard is the strongest from all mages and I believe he will be nerfed in some way soon. Even though I play wizard alot I would welcome an errata actually since I believe its for the healthiness of the game.
One obvious and minimally intrusive way to bring the Wizard into alignment would be to reduce his channeling to 9.    As new players my meta is struggling to figure out why the Mage with the best access to the power spells also channels one more mana than most of the others.   

Would Wizard be more reasonable with this simple change?