August 25, 2019, 10:00:45 PM

Author Topic: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell  (Read 16802 times)

FruchtYogurt

  • New Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« on: February 18, 2014, 01:48:49 PM »
First of all HI, I'm new to the forum  :)

My question is about an example given in the "Official Mage Wars Rules Supplement" under "Changing the Range or Target of a Spell or Attack"

it is stated:

A spell fails and is canceled, if either of the following occur before the Resolve Spell Step:
1.
The target of the spell is no longer a legal target, or
2.
The caster or target of the spell moves (e.g. by being Pushed or Teleported away), even if the move was to a location where the spell was still in range. (In the case of a Teleport, this applies even if the teleport was into the same zone).

In the above it says the spell fails even in the case, when the teleport is into the same zone.

Now in the example it says:

A Wizard attempts to cast a creature spell, and targets the zone he is in. During the Counter Spell Step, the enemy reveals a Divine Intervention on the Wizard, teleporting him to a different zone. The zone he was targeting has changed, so the spell fails and is canceled. The Wizard will have spent (and lost!) the mana and creature card for that spell.


Now, if Divine Intervention was revealed while he was casting a creature spell and he was teleported into the same zone, he has moved according to point 2 as stated above. Thus the creature spell should fail.

But why does the example require him to be teleported into a diffrent zone? For balance reasons?


Btw: Mage Wars is an awsome game  ;)


jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2014, 02:58:12 PM »
Thanks for raising this point, i too wondered when i read the example in the FAQ.

Imo the wizard example is pure non-sense.

The zone he is targetting is not changed. The wizard is now in another zone, still targetting his own original target zone.
His spell fails and is cancelled because of 2 things (1 would be enough):

1: He is no longer in range of the zone he targets (range 0-0)

and

2: The caster of the spell moves.



If i got all this wrong, then i would like an EILIF

silverclawgrizzly

  • Charlotte Mage Warrior
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2014, 03:08:10 PM »
First welcome to the Mage Wars Arena!

Well the ruling does say it's cancelled even if the new zone is within range. So that's my guess as to why it'd be cancelled.
  • Favourite Mage: Straywood Beastmaster
What we must all remember is no matter the game we were all newbies at one point.

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2014, 03:25:43 PM »
Whoa... I suddenly see devastating combo here... First round... You have initiative... Most of time people will pass the first QC phase... So quickcast teleport to NC, move 1 zone and cast Divine Intervention on opponenet mage... Now, you can really screw him bad by cancelling a spawnpoint or Adramelech or Vine Tree or anythng really important...

ringkichard

  • Flightless Funpire
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2564
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Kich, if you prefer.
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2014, 03:31:53 PM »
Works better as a response to an aggressive buddy-book, like 2nd turn far-center Lord of Fire. I've got a strategy article coming out on exactly this topic.
I can take the fun out of anything. It's true; here, look at this spreadsheet.

lettucemode

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2014, 11:46:47 AM »
Moving something out of the way of a ranged attack or enchantment cast with DI is fine by me, but causing your opponent to lose 24 mana and an ungodly amount of tempo (in the worst case) for very little effort strikes me as extremely powerful. What is a Druid to do if Vine Tree is cancelled like this on turn one, etc. This is a rules edge case I do not like at all.

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2014, 01:29:10 PM »
Moving something out of the way of a ranged attack or enchantment cast with DI is fine by me, but causing your opponent to lose 24 mana and an ungodly amount of tempo (in the worst case) for very little effort strikes me as extremely powerful. What is a Druid to do if Vine Tree is cancelled like this on turn one, etc. This is a rules edge case I do not like at all.

That is why Divine Intervention is Epic. And if you see a Holy mage rushing toward you to put an enchant on you... You better to wait and get a seeking dispell next round. Or if you face a holy mage... Prepare a seeking dispel first round...

Aylin

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 494
  • Banana Stickers 4
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2014, 01:40:09 PM »
I'm gonna have to build a Priestess book around this now...

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2014, 02:17:44 PM »
To do this it is turn 1 teleport 2 then move 1 and cast DI on other mage. If you have initiative for round 2 you then QC a Nullify. I did not to tell people about this until it got noticed. Took you all long enough  :P .
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 02:20:10 PM by Shad0w »
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2014, 02:40:00 PM »
To do this it is turn 1 teleport 2 then move 1 and cast DI on other mage. If you have initiative for round 2 you then QC a Nullify. I did not to tell people about this until it got noticed. Took you all long enough  :P .

Yes but if you have initiative on round 2 it means you do not have it round one, so you wont be able to screw up someone beside an adramelech warlock.

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2497
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2014, 02:44:28 PM »
I think he meant as the defending mage you might want to prepare a nullify round one if your holy opponent has initiative. Nullify doesn't help the holy mage protect his divine intervention as seeking dispel targets the enchant not the mage.

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2014, 03:01:14 PM »
I think he meant as the defending mage you might want to prepare a nullify round one if your holy opponent has initiative. Nullify doesn't help the holy mage protect his divine intervention as seeking dispel targets the enchant not the mage.

Oh. You are right.

lettucemode

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2014, 03:17:23 PM »
That is why Divine Intervention is Epic.

So is Vine Tree and so are the other spawnpoints. Adramelech and other huge creatures aren't Epic but you are only going to have one of them in a book anyway. These are cards that you build a book around, and they are Epic or Level 6 or whatever because of that power. DI is not a card you build a book around, but it can now apparently shut those books down on turn 1. So a correctly played Holy Mage can, with a single card, auto-win or gain on incredible advantage an turn 1 against some books. Does that seem fair to you?

Quote
And if you see a Holy mage rushing toward you to put an enchant on you... You better to wait and get a seeking dispell next round.

Good plan, I will just sit here and not cast Adramelech or Graveyard or whatever until next round. And I have to prepare a Seeking Dispel for the next round (if I have one) meanwhile the Priestess puts down a Temple of Asyra. So I try to cast the Seeking Dispel and oh hey, she also put a Jinx on me because she had initiative. Now it is turn 3, I have 40 mana I can't possibly spend in one turn, the DI is still on me, I have successfully cast maybe one spell total this game, and her spawnpoint is running. Nice counter-strategy!

Quote
Or if you face a holy mage... Prepare a seeking dispel first round...

But if it turns out she isn't planning to do the DI trick, now I have prepared a useless spell and lost tempo anyway. Nullify is not much better. So I may as well prepare something useful, oh wait she IS doing the trick after all. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

And what if she just saves it for another turn later in the game? Are players expected to prepare a Seeking Dispel every single round or have a Nullify up at all times to prevent this? How is this ruling defensible?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 03:27:05 PM by lettucemode »

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2497
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2014, 03:26:46 PM »

Quote
And if you see a Holy mage rushing toward you to put an enchant on you... You better to wait and get a seeking dispell next round.

Good plan, I will just sit here and not cast Adramelech or Graveyard or whatever until next round. And I have to prepare a Seeking Dispel for the next round (if I have one) meanwhile the Priestess puts down a Temple of Asyra. So I try to cast the Seeking Dispel and oh hey, she also put a Jinx on me because she had initiative. Now it is turn 3, I have 40 mana I can't possibly spend in one turn, the DI is still on me, I have successfully cast maybe one spell total this game, and her spawnpoint is running. Nice counter-strategy

If you have initiative, you don't have to worry about this enchant. If you don't have initiative, you can seeking dispel it next round before they can put a jinx on you (since it requires both a teleport and divine intervention for them to pull off this strategy, there is no jinx). It is a loss of tempo, but it's not an unbeatable strategy.

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2014, 03:28:15 PM »
Dont panic.

The holy mage has to waste his whole turn, his 2 actions and 18 mana to do that. And to counter this all you have to do is wait a turn, and spend 2 mana. So it is not an autowin and it can lash back hard in the face of the holy mage.