September 15, 2019, 03:02:52 AM

Author Topic: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell  (Read 16974 times)

Zuberi

  • Rules Guru
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2500
  • Banana Stickers 57
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2014, 01:54:50 PM »
The wording in the FAQ is completely accurate on this issue and clear as crystal, it does not need to be adapted. A teleport from divine intervention will cause the spell to fail even if the mage is moved to the same zone. The example they use regarding creature summons actually fails for multiple reasons, they just choose to highlight that particular reason.

FruchtYogurt

  • New Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2014, 05:05:59 AM »
Ok thank you!

lettucemode

  • Sr. Mage
  • ****
  • Posts: 282
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2014, 08:43:33 AM »
I have had a few days to mull this over and calm down a bit. I don't think this is as devastating as I originally said it was, however I still do not like it. No other enchantment has the ability to end a game so suddenly like this. Jinx is similar but the opponent still gets their mana and the card back for example. I don't want to have to include a Seeking Dispel in every book - I know it is a good idea to do so anyway but being forced into it is different.

So nyah :P

webcatcher

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2014, 12:54:24 PM »
So what if you're not casting a creature spell? Could I short circuit a forcefield by DIing a Forcemaster, since both the caster and the target will have moved even though they're the same creature?

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2014, 01:01:06 PM »
So what if you're not casting a creature spell? Could I short circuit a forcefield by DIing a Forcemaster, since both the caster and the target will have moved even though they're the same creature?

Yes

ACG

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
  • Banana Stickers 5
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2014, 01:34:34 PM »
So what if you're not casting a creature spell? Could I short circuit a forcefield by DIing a Forcemaster, since both the caster and the target will have moved even though they're the same creature?

No. You could prevent the casting of the forcefield in the first place (though would would not know what it was), but once attached to the creature revealing it does not count as casting a spell, and hence will not be cancelled if the target moves (at least, that's how I understand it). Also, at that point it has already been cast successfully.

DeckBuilder

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 666
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2014, 02:43:30 PM »
To do this it is turn 1 teleport 2 then move 1 and cast DI on other mage. If you have initiative for round 2 you then QC a Nullify. I did not to tell people about this until it got noticed. Took you all long enough  :P .

Is it just me that finds this just too cheesy?
I think I would rage quit if someone did this and I didn't about this trick then
Just like when a friend rage quit when I revealed Mind Control in ready phase (since nerfed)
There are some maneouvres that make a mockery of all the hard work it should take to do it

Teleporting Enemy Mages should not be allowed under any circumstances

Mark my warning: this Teleport cheese is hurting the game.
Someone already wrote his local meta doesn't play Wizards.
Mine allow Wizards only with the permission of his opponent.
Now we have this which feels so wrong in theme and design.

It's not funny that this silliness is actually knowingly tolerated by AW and even encouraged to be announced.
Kich has even written a really good interesting article (with pictures) about Teleport and this on the website.
I'm baffled AW would actually want to boast about cheesy mechanics that put potential players off the game.
It's like watching a one-armed man repeatedly load the shotgun and shoot himself in the foot until it falls off.

For a game that prides itself in
* No Guaranteed Kill Spells (Drain Soul closest)
* No Hard Control Spells
there's this huge disjoint when it comes to evaluating how broken "Teleporting the enemy mage" effects are.

Imagine in Chess if you could Teleport the enemy King...

I think what got me is it's a long-known manoeuvre, so many chances to be subtly removed by amending the FAQ.
They actually worded the FAQ to ensure this is possible.

It's not clever. It's not fun. It's just silly value destruction of a great game.

Is this just me? Is anyone else as flabbergasted, exasperated and angry by this as me?
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

ACG

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
  • Banana Stickers 5
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2014, 03:03:57 PM »
Is this just me? Is anyone else as flabbergasted, exasperated and angry by this as me?

I think what bothers me about it is that it is not terribly intuitive from the card.

I am all in favor of cool rule interactions between cards, but I did not even think of the potential for autokilling a creature until it was pointed out here. Most of the people with whom I play Mage Wars are fairly new to the game, and do not frequent these forums. They would probably be disgusted if I tried to use DI to cancel an early game play like this, because the text of the card does not make it clear that it can be used to cancel any spell. I actually searched the rulebook again to find the relevant passage (maybe somebody can point me to it?), and was unable to do so. The parameters of what significant things a card can do ought to be clear on the card; now that I know about this, the only thing I will ever use DI for (assuming I ever play a holy mage; I am not a big fan of that school) is to cancel an opponent's spell; using it for its teleport seems like a waste. But the card is written as though its primary purpose is as an escape.

I guess I would like for card rules to be written so that their most useful purpose is clear, so that my new players can pick up on the strategy more. Many of them complain that the game feels like I am "making up rules" as we go along.

webcatcher

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 230
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2014, 03:21:53 PM »
I'm certainly not as angry as you about it but I acknowledge that teleport is broken. Also, the wizard in general.

IndyPendant

  • Full Mage
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
  • Banana Stickers 2
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2014, 03:49:17 PM »
I seem to be in agreement with DB quite a lot.  I like to adapt his spellbooks, and I find his posts persuasive.

Here's my my main issues with this whole concept:

1) This is using Flavour Text to destroy a Game Mechanic.  This ruling could have gone either way, without affecting current gameplay in any other significant way, and a different ruling would have enhanced the fun factor.  Why can't a mage still cast a spell, if the target is still valid?  (This applies to Enchantment Transfusion as well.)  In addition, any further spells that move anything anywhere will have to keep this silly ruling in mind, limiting future options.

2) It's cheap and unfun.  If it happens, at best your own strategy is delayed critically, and at worst (key spell is simply lost) you might as well concede the game now.  Well, that was a fun one-round game, let's play something else now.  I personally would probably quit, and insist on a house rule that prevents it from being used that way again.  Brings back bad after-tastes of Magic the Gathering; if there were more options like this available in the game, I would not be playing it.  (Not a hyperbole, simply a statement of fact: I loathe I-Win Buttons in games.)

3) It's easy to set up, and all-but impossible to counter.  Once used, you can also use it to bluff; now you've delayed him because he *HAS* to deal with it or lose the game, and you've gotten much closer to him as well.  Double benefit when playing an aggro book.

4) It's counter-intuitive.  Divine Intervention, by name, wording, and intent, is clearly meant to be used defensively as an escape.  It is only through an obscure, unnecessary faq ruling that this tactic becomes useful.  Shadow, there are *reasons* it took 1.5 years for this tactic to come to light!

So.  In summary, it's an unnecessary ruling, that detracts from the fun of the game, is easy to set up, and is counter-intuitive in the first place.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2014, 04:14:53 PM »
I am a fan of Holy, and to me the disjoint in the game and the getting bent out of shape on this particular card is head scratching:

Divine: relating to or coming from God or a god
Intervene: to come or occur between two times or events

The ruling is very literal. Once again it is a Priest/Priestess Only Epic Card. Meaning that it can only be used once. If it is my silver bullet and it kills your silver bullet then there are no more silver bullets in this match. You have to duke it out like a real mage.

Rage Quit: Who/What unholy pair am I: Only I have a Conjuration spell that is cheap to cast and hard to kill,  can run multiple copies of it in a spellbook, is designed to have Attack Spells bound to it, can change out said attack spell during planning phase for free, when attached attack spell is cast, it is not discarded, its not zone exclusive, oh yeah, and I generate mana.

Talk about a real problem......this is it!
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

DeckBuilder

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 666
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2014, 04:21:22 PM »
Thanks, folks, for making me feel better on this
I have always considered Divine Intervention to be friendly creature (intuitive) and I had to double-check.
Here is the main reason I take issue with this

Enchantment Transfusion + Divine Intervention

That's 2 free action Teleports that you have banked
It's just too powerful control
I can counter whatever major investment you cast for 11
That insurance policy is huge
You can't even kill it with Seeking Dispel as I just move it
However, as Golem Pit showed, that's the main use for it

Forget the Wizard, he's past it!

The Priestess can create a Corner Pit of 4 Bear Strength Knights (in Sacred Ground if necessary)
She's steps out, protected by her Guardian Angel, and casts a Steel Wall around it
Then Teleport to within 2, Transfuse Intervention onto the enemy mage and send him into your Pit
I don't even need to Transfuse Nullify + Jinx + Force Hold if I know he doesn't have Eagleclaw Boots
(Last time I looked, the rules were not clear on Climbing and Restrained so we play it does prevent)

Unstoppable

Wow, that's really going to help me attract new players to this game!

When will they listen about "Teleport your mage" cheese?
In many storytelling conventions, it's a standard trope for the hero to suffer a downfall because of hubris.
Refusal to see how the game could be so much better by admitting a big flaw is pride, a common hubris.
And we all know what pride comes before.
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2014, 04:31:13 PM »
And by the time she gets through the 24 turns needed to setup this "Awesome" play from Hades what ever I have been fighting against (as I have put all of my guys in a corner) will have a Buffed Steel Claw chewing on her or after 12 turns (half of the time needed for this play) BB will move in for the kill and end the game on round 13 or 14.
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

DeckBuilder

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 666
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2014, 04:34:14 PM »
Just imagine a world where your mage was safe from enemy Teleports...
Where you can actually spend your resources on creating troops to put between you and your enemy.
Instead of armouring up to obscene levels in case you get teleported into a Pit.
Where you can actually send forth troops, and even join them, instead of suicide attacks on Death Pits.
Where you can play Warlord Ranged, not afraid you'll just be Teleported to the other side of your own Pikes.
Where you don't have to spend 8 spell points on 2 Teleports in every book, the first thing you write down.

What a far better game it would be if Mages were immune to opponent's Teleport effects...

I have a dream that one day, we could all live in that happy world where we play Mage Wars as a skirmish game...
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. And then it's just fun.

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2014, 04:35:29 PM »
About Transfusion + Divine Intervention, it is not 11 mana. It is 15 mana (12+3) minus ring deductions.

And about Holy Pit, it require 4x 13 mana + 15 mana +16/17 mana. So yeah, 82 mana and 7 turns (assuming you dont disturb her at all). A game last 9-10 turns in my meta so its quite close. What the other mage was doing during that time?