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Author Topic: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell  (Read 19329 times)

sIKE

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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #60 on: February 26, 2014, 12:05:45 PM »
He has to move 2 spaces the first round, so regardless of initiative the only thing he can cast is the DI. Now if he has init he can play Jinx/Nullify but you can just save your QC till your first activation and then double Seeking Dispel, this silly play is over....back to regular play.
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lettucemode

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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #61 on: February 26, 2014, 12:15:08 PM »
He has to move 2 spaces the first round, so regardless of initiative the only thing he can cast is the DI. Now if he has init he can play Jinx/Nullify but you can just save your QC till your first activation and then double Seeking Dispel, this silly play is over....back to regular play.

And what if he never cast the DI at all and it was a Decoy instead? Now you have prepared two Seeking Dispels and he summons Samandriel.

I am not arguing about how to beat the trick, I know it can be beaten. I am arguing that the existence of the trick is unfair to the opponent of the Holy Mage, whether or not it is actually used. It creates a situation which damages the game.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 12:35:29 PM by lettucemode »

Shad0w

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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2014, 12:42:48 PM »
4) Shadow brought up this ruling "When a spell resolves, if you find the target of that spell is no longer valid (has moved or changed) then the spell is countered", saying that this has already been in the rules. However the new FAQ says this:

A spell fails and is canceled, if either of the following occur before the Resolve Spell Step:
1. The target of the spell is no longer a legal target, or
2. The caster or target of the spell moves (e.g. by being Pushed or Teleported away), even if the move was
to a location where the spell was still in range. (In the case of a Teleport, this applies even if the teleport
was into the same zone).

This was in debate for a long time with the rules team. I will not say how the votes fell but some people voted for zone must be different others voted for the same zone. Both were talked about in great detail. In the end you know what the result of the final votes was. I can not get into detail but what I can say is this was talked about for several months.
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silverclawgrizzly

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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2014, 01:32:18 PM »
*wakes  up after a good days sleep*

Man...yo guys are passionate about this one. I need more thin mints before I get back into this. I can't find some of my Teleport cards so I'm currently rocking 1 for like 4 different books to share. Still winning some though :)
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Zuberi

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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2014, 02:25:11 PM »
You are correct, the possibility of a bluff does change things up. Personally, I like that bluffing is a part of this game and think that it makes it more entertaining, not less.

For the Druid, I would recommend casting your tree during the Quick Cast phase of round one anytime you face a holy mage. Prevent this issue from ever occuring. Otherwise, you will have a more difficult time from this than anybody else, unless you happen to carry multiple trees in your spellbook. In which case, you'd actually come out ahead if a Holy Mage did this to counter your first tree. You don't treebond until the thing actually enters play, so you can simply bond with the second tree. You've lost 9 mana (assuming Vine Tree) and a quick action, while your opponent has lost 18 mana and an entire round.

For anybody else, the primary concern is that DI will cancel a big bad creature. There are a couple of ways you can handle this. You could try to remove any enchantments he puts on you, but chances are he can apply more than you can remove and he might never actually apply the DI. Or you could simply play around the threat. As long as you don't cast anything that costs 18 or more mana, a DI shouldn't be that big of a swing in the game. This might force you to go with your Plan B rather than your primary strategy, but every book should include a Plan B anyways if you ask me. Summon some smaller creatures or strap on some equipment and go to town, just don't give him too tempting a target to use DI on.

This might seem like a big penalty to you, playing with an ever present threat over your head....but it shouldn't really be that limiting. How many cards do you include that are actually that expensive? Plus, your opponent has put himself at an 8 mana and action deficit to create this looming threat, giving you an advantage if he never actually makes good on it.

Granted, in addition to the option of countering a really expensive spell, he could use the DI to counter something cheaper AND gain a significant positional advantage to possibly make the investment worth it for him. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to setup such an advantage PLUS time it with you casting something worthwhile, but my gut says fairly difficult.

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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2014, 02:51:47 PM »
Cancelling a big bad with DI is not worst than with Mind Control + Essence Drain.

lettucemode

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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #66 on: February 27, 2014, 10:23:37 AM »
You are correct, the possibility of a bluff does change things up. Personally, I like that bluffing is a part of this game and think that it makes it more entertaining, not less.

I never said otherwise, I also enjoy the bluffing aspect of enchantments. It just creates a bad situation in this one extreme case.

Quote
For the Druid

I mentioned before that I am not looking for advice on how to beat the trick. The existence of the trick is the issue, not that I can't see a way around it. The Druid is actually one of the least affected by this trick because she can cast the tree during the first QC phase, then have the tree cast everything else important. I just used it as an example of how not all silver bullets are equal.

Quote
Or you could simply play around the threat.

So here we come to the crux of the issue - I assert that this trick cannot be played around effectively. Anything you do to play around it only cripples you further and further. You say that a player should switch to plan B. This seems like a natural solution because there's a plan B against say, Mordok's Obelisk - summon 1 big creature instead of several smaller ones. Well, there is no plan B against DI because DI works against plan B too. If you summon medium creatures the Priestess can bring out Knights of Westlock, and she'll have one more than you will because she can cancel one of your creatures. She can match or beat you on equipment because you won't be able to get the Battle Forge down.

This effect is exacerbated by the fact that DI can be bluffed. Obelisk can't be bluffed, a Grizzly can't be bluffed. But when a player prepares two Seeking Dispels to get rid of a DI that isn't even there while the Priestess summons an Angel, the power of this trick is apparent. Bluffing any other enchantment (like a Nullify or Block or something) does not have this level of effect on the other player's mind. The Priestess never has to use the trick. She doesn't even have to include DI in her spellbook. As soon as she casts an enchantment (whether round 1 or later) on the enemy mage, the guessing game begins.

Quote
This might seem like a big penalty to you, playing with an ever present threat over your head....but it shouldn't really be that limiting. How many cards do you include that are actually that expensive? Plus, your opponent has put himself at an 8 mana and action deficit to create this looming threat, giving you an advantage if he never actually makes good on it.

The action disadvantage evens out as soon as a creature spell is cancelled. Quick for Full.

Quote
Granted, in addition to the option of countering a really expensive spell, he could use the DI to counter something cheaper AND gain a significant positional advantage to possibly make the investment worth it for him. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to setup such an advantage PLUS time it with you casting something worthwhile, but my gut says fairly difficult.

Anytime the other mage casts a creature spell, cancel it and move him near your other creatures, then attack him with them. That is not difficult at all.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 03:32:21 PM by lettucemode »

DeckBuilder

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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #67 on: February 27, 2014, 03:24:49 PM »
[Zuberi, I will respond with my counter arguments but I'm a bit busy at work here in the UK]

Ok, Zuberi, I've finally got time to answer you. I haven't forgotten.
Apologies for the delay but I was preoccupied on more interesting threads than proving something I already know.
Meantime, Lettucemode has been doing an excellent job highlighting the holes in your argument (bravo!)

Me, and no doubt many others, including Arcane Wonders, respect you immensely as an expert on the rules.
However I believe there have been cases where you blind adherence to the rules may be damaging to the game.
I gave up too easily on Mind Control, where you played your "This is the Law!" Tablets of Stone rules expert card.
Arcane Wonders ruled with you, partly no doubt because you are the safe pair of hands and I'm the loose cannon.
Unfortunately the Forcemaster suffered with the errata that followed once they realised your way was too strong.

I get the (unfair?) impression it's all about the rules, not the bigger picture like fun or intuitivemess or even balance.
One moments the rules state X and you are a staunch advocate of X.
Next minute they change the rules to Y and you are a staunch advocate of Y.
The fact they changed rule X to Y (like "watering burning plants") doesn't make you question why you supported X.
It's a good thing you weren't active during my House Rules thread as you would have pilloried me for not respecting rules.
Well, here's a thing about me, both in games and in other areas of life: respect has to be earned.

Frankly, using Divine Intervention like this only earns from me the greatest contempt that they knowingly allowed it.

This adherence to rules "because they are the rules" is an admirable trait (maybe you are a soldier or a policeman?).
It is the polar opposite to me as I am always questioning, always critiquing, seeking to improve and not to stagnate.
From recent frustrations I've faced, I think your conservative approach is far more at home as a Playtester than me.

However this time, I am not going to give up so easily.

Due to the way Teleport's targeting system is setup, I would be able to teleport you further than you could teleport yourself. I then would have several options to restrict your movement or block your line of sight to prevent you from getting back to your fortress, using my quick cast before you have had a chance to act. You shouldn't simply engage in a teleport war. That is quite unwise. Especially if they have a teleport wand (which must be dissolved).

So let's wheel out the old cliche that Teleport is there to defend against a turtling Mage/Priestess in her corner.

Firstly, let's talk about Teleport before I come to the irrefutably broken card that is Divine Intervention.

Any Wizard doing this Turtling trick will have Nullify protection.
More than that, he will have plenty of time to set up 3rd party Nullify + Enchantment Transfusion protection.
Because you have been spending Mage actions moving while he has been doing stuff in a super-efficient way.
You cannot hope to Teleport him out or Dissolve his Teleport Wand range 1 (they created Orchid to bypass).

In fact he has so much control, the moment you're within range 2 to Teleport him, you'll be sucked in instead.
Where the Enchantment Transfusion trap is sprung. I said it back then that given time, there's inevitability about it.
Again, they created Cloak of Shadows to prevent this happening too easy (but it's also Dark Mage Only tech).
Necromancer can wait him out with Pestilence + Deathlock in opposite corner; they have mage-specific answers.
Even worse, as mentioned in "How to Beat the Wiz?", the Necromancer could build Altar of Skulls and out-turtle.

So between vine range Orchid to destroy Teleport Wands and Necromancer tech, they have reacted to Mage Pit.
But these are specific tools for specific mages - what about the rest?
It's a very horses-for-courses approach instead of just changing the rules or introducing Novice cards for all etc.

Your theory that you can just out-Teleport a Mage and extract him out does not hold water in practice.
So while I agree this would be a good reason to keep Teleport and endure the pain, it just fails in that task
No benefit but we retain Teleport Checkmate, this brutal technique lacking finesse, detrimental to the game.
It does not make sense allowing Enemy Mages to be Teleported under our current card pool (or with FIF).

Teleport was a brutal way to solve the Turtle Problem that has actually backfired and caused more problems.

The designers should have approached it by granting greater benefit for controlling more zones with zone exclusives.
By making sure ranged tech like Akiro's Hammer (why Golem Pit has a Fog Wall) is available to breakdown a Fortress.
By creating more "smoke them out" cards like Pestilence (how about damage from adjacent Passage Blocked Walls?).

There are more creative ways to solve the Turtle Problem than Teleport which is the most sledgehammer method.
Which has backfired badly, a standard shortcut for totally ignoring tactics, destroying players who want to wargame.

Now for the subject of this thread, Divine Intervention (and its interaction with Enchantment Transfusion).
Transfusions give my Divine Intervention the freedom to always survive, no need to guess, even vs. Destroy Magic.

So there you are, after triggering Nullify, casting a 12 cost Teleport to move me 4 zones from my Sacred Fortress.
Except I trigger Transfusion, move Divine Intervention to you to drag you into my Knight Pit instead then wall you in.
Your 12 cost teleport is countered and because you went within range 2 to cast Teleport, you are now in my Holy Pit.

Divine Intervention + Enchantment Transfusion (which bypasses Nullify) means there is no way you can extract me!

So yet again the initially sensible reason you give for retaining Teleporting Enemy Mages has been debunked!
Teleporting Enemy Mages with the current card pool is causing untold damage to the game.

Zuberi, I suspect you are an Arcane Wonders plant, not just because of your sudden appearance, knowing the rules so well.
But also always blindly supporting the rules, backing them at every opportunity, a super loyalist on BGG and Facebook too.
If you're not a plant, this Judge Dredd following laws and not common sense is probably done with the best possible intentions.

But sometimes it's important to step outside the comfort zone, to consider heresies like (whisper it) "changing the rules"...
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 03:48:29 PM by DeckBuilder »
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sIKE

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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #68 on: February 27, 2014, 03:47:12 PM »
@Deckbuilder

I have had so many conversations with you about this and your Teleport Pit Trap argument that I think we sound like broken records playing in the same room. The argument that the spell Teleport is broken, is cheesy, and sucky, and horribly breaks the game is only true once again if you have 7-10 turns to setup this trap. Fool me once shame on me. If I play you twice and see you setting up the same maneuver during the second game, I am going to go in for the kill real quick and this technique will die in my local meta. Yes in theory it is still there, so is the killer ToL once I get 3 or 4 temples out it costs a bit on mana now, but still has the same extra action effect of the original. With that said, it is no longer played this way because of the overhead needed to get it is setup now. Same with the Pit there are a lot of actions and mana needed to get that puppy working.

As for DI, there are numerous way to counter this play, once again fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

Reverse Magic, Seeking Dispel, Nullify, Steel Enchantment. If you are able to setup the perfect set of circumstances to pull off the Pit you deserve to win, but if I am your opponent and don't see this coming and react to it and disrupt it, I deserve to loose.

Teleport is annoying and when played properly can take or swish tempo around, but it isn't the end all, be all of Mage Wars. That is reserved for the Wizard's Tower.
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lettucemode

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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #69 on: February 27, 2014, 03:49:17 PM »
Zuberi, I suspect you are an Arcane Wonders plant, not just because of your sudden appearance, knowing the rules so well.
But also always blindly supporting the rules, backing them at every opportunity, a super loyalist on BGG and Facebook too.
If you are not a plant, ithis Judge Dredd application of laws not common sense is probably done with the best possible intentions.

ROFL

Oh man, I just snorted out loud at work and got some funny looks. DB bringin' out the accusations ;)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 03:52:42 PM by lettucemode »

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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2014, 03:54:25 PM »
As for DI, there are numerous way to counter this play, once again fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

Divine Intervention + Enchantment Transfusion

I have instant speed Counter Your Spell + drag you into my Holy Pit

Huginn could try to break it I guess - but you have to play a Wizard for that and there's way around that too.
The only other way to break that I can see is to play a Holy Mage and do the same back to me.
And then we get into timing issues.

Please sIKE, enlighten me how to break this?
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sIKE

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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2014, 04:14:07 PM »
Warlock - Lets see round 3 I move in with my Lord of Fire and shoot you with a Fireball

Druid - see your wall less pit location spread vines to it, drop in a vine snapper or 4

Wizard - BB ya

BM - Swarm ya

Necro - Bring out a couple of Ghouls and have them start hitting on your mage build a wall across the zone top to bottom, grow me a zombie army, and drop pestilence

Pit is a lot of work to build and you can't play control, you cant play agro, no board control, you cant do anything but work on your trap else your casting spells doing something different.

Your argument assumes you have the chance to Nullify+DI+ET plus save enough mana for the 10 needed for the DI + at least 14 for the Walls, 4 knights are 13*4 mana.

I am just supposed to put on Rose Colored glasses on and stick may head into the ground, then place my fingers in my ears and go lalalallalala the entire time you do all this prep work, then walk blindly to you and die?

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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2014, 04:31:50 PM »
And Priestess doesn't have creatures like Guardian Angel against ranged? Knight Guards?
Do I need to tell you how resilient a Priestess is?

Why can't you accept that both countering your spell and moving you wherever I like where you have no defence is huge?

I know you have a rabid hatred of Turtle Pit.
And I don't want it to work either.
But put your hatred aside and think about the issue in hand.

Is there nothing super cheesy about DI + ET in your eyes?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 04:35:17 PM by DeckBuilder »
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sIKE

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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2014, 04:43:04 PM »
I have never said I hated it, just that I don't think that it is a real factor in normal game play, because once your start doing:
Quote
Creatures like Guardian Angel against ranged? Knight Guards?
You are no longer working on building out your pit, but responding to pressure applied to you by the other player. That pressure will not ease and you will have to continue to respond to it, not leaving you much to time to build the 4 KoW and all of the other accouterment needed to "win".

Is it cheesy that it exists, ok its cheese, but is it a serious as a casual or tournament style of play that will win consistently and as a result declared broken and we therefore need to nerf both DI and Teleport. IMHO not a chance.

Once again I wish the passion you have on this was targeted at the real threat to the game, the Wizard's Tower of course.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2014, 04:45:03 PM by sIKE »
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Re: Divine Intervention & Creature Spell
« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2014, 05:17:17 PM »
Ok, I answered that last post on my phone so short.

Recruiting 4 Knights (and a Guardian Angel if needed) is part of the plan! How else can I make the Pit deadly unless I have them?

You attack with Lord of Fire? I have 2 Knights guarding at the same cost, even against his Sweeping hitting him back for 10 dice (later boosted with Bear strength). Then come the Archers. As for Fireball, by all means destroy your threat build up with early attacks! You are playing into the Priestess hands. How will I get rid of all those burns and heal?

I think Ghouls are the pits. Absolutely no synergy. Overpriced pap, over-action intensive situational rubbish.
We had this argument at previews when you loved the Ghouls and I loved the Brutes, we hated the other.
2 Ghouls cost the same as the 2 Knights guarding me while your Ghouls "beat on my mage"? Who will win?
As for Pestilence, isn't that what Unicorns were created for?
Now if you mentioned Deathlock, that could cause problems. But not Ghouls and Pestilence.

BB? yes, you will have to play a different game. But take tarkin's Priestess build. It's just as heavily armoured and again the Priestess has all the tools to beat BB. but now she can Counter + Teleport you anywhere at instant speed. It's too much.

You want to attack my 4 Knight Guards with 4 Vine Snappers?? Fine. I let you. Then I walk over to the other corner. Remember I can heal pretty easily too with a Unicorn or just Healing Charms.

Beastmaster Swarm. 6 dice Falcons (4 Fury -1 Aegis) shouldn't kill Knight guards even if they fail Defence but the Counterstrike certainly should. Guardians and Archers help as well. However i agree that the rarely Beastmaster Swarm does cause problems because of creature overlap but coming in too early spells doom for the Swarm.

We can play this theory-crafting Rock Paper Scissors all day.

The point is not necessarily about a Holy Pit (it could be just be a modified Priestess build like tarkin's).
The point is

Using Divine Intervention plus Enchantment Transfusion to counter your spell and move you anywhere is too much.

It's only Epic? You only need one chance to set your trap.

I hate visiting this thread because it just gets me so angry that something so obviously SILLY is tolerated.

So apologies if I just log off from this infuriating thread.

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