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Author Topic: Poor gorilla  (Read 18842 times)

webcatcher

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Poor gorilla
« on: March 04, 2014, 07:46:11 AM »
I've been feeling bad for the mountain gorilla lately. He's not a bad creature - with 2 armor and 16 health he's hard to kill, and and the rage ability gives him good damage potential. Climbing is a little weird, but not useless. Unfortunately, for the same number of book points and only 1 more SP you can have a steelclaw grizzly instead. More survivable, rolls more damage dice, great full attack option, the grizzly definitely makes the gorilla look like the poor cousin. So I want to make the gorilla work. Regenaration nerfs the gorilla unnecessarily because he'll lose his rage tokens during the upkeep phase. Vampirism is better, but I suspect that only active healing or no healing is worthwhile for the angry ape. He works best with walls, so maybe in combination with flyers? Has anyone else had success with the gorilla?

jacksmack

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Re: Poor gorilla
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2014, 08:00:41 AM »
Wish they had given him rage+2 and 5 dice base attack instead of 4 base and 3 rage.
Or
Made rage trigger from any damage - tol and WT, damage barries, poisen cloud, pestilence etc.
(and yes i would attack my own gorilla)

Limiting rage to enemy creatures only is just too bad. (i hope they errata rage because its a mechanic i really want to use!)
Right now people can just neglect counterstriking when it attack guards because its actually not worth it.
Its a hella expensive creature that does little damage its cost considered.... why counterstrike it to make it stronger?

On the other hand i also feel that grizzly is 1 mana too cheap. If grizzly costed 18 mana maybe gorrilla would see more play. Right now grizzly is just the better option always.

Artemus Maximus

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Re: Poor gorilla
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2014, 08:26:44 AM »
I've used him in J.  Beastmaster, to run point guard against Zombies after Fellella pricked him. I liked him there... Until he was reanimated.

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Re: Poor gorilla
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2014, 08:44:10 AM »
Technically the gorilla has a much better quick attack than the grizzly once he gets some Rage counters. It's just more efficient and reliable to use the grizzly for the reasons jacksmack stated.

ringkichard

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Re: Poor gorilla
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2014, 10:37:05 AM »
Gorilla's got to get to 2 counters before his quick attack is better, and needs three counters to match Steelclaw's Full action attack. It's really just about the numbers. Maybe if it had more health; or a lower cost and level so it would be easier to make a pet.
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Wildhorn

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Re: Poor gorilla
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2014, 11:28:18 AM »
In a vacuum, Grizzly is better.

But if you look at the Gorilla, there is some stuff that could make it equal if not better than a Grizzly.

First, it cost 1 less mana.
Then, it has 1 more hp. Yes it has 1 less armor, but is it really a drawback when you actually want it to be damaged?
Then, Climbing prevent opponent mage to hide behind Stone/Steel walls.
Then, if there is a guard and it counterstrike, it buff up Gorilla attack, if to prevent the buff it doesnt counterstrike, it actually increase survivability of the Gorilla, so it basically increase its hp value by X (where X= the amount of damage the enemy attack would have done)
Then, once it get damage,
- 1 damage = its quick attack is almost equal to grizzly (missing the Piercing +1)
- 2 damage = its quick attack is better than grizzly
- 3 damage = its quick attack is almost equal to grizzly full attack (missing Piercing +1, but it is a quick instead a full!)

To really make it shine, Rage should be changed to "Each time it is attacked and Damaged by enemy,..." instead of enemy creature. Being hit by a Wizard Tower or a Burst of Thorn should enrage him too.

baronzaltor

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Re: Poor gorilla
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2014, 02:09:04 PM »
I've always been a gorilla fan, even if just to be a hipster in the pro-grizzly world.

silverclawgrizzly

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Re: Poor gorilla
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2014, 02:17:05 PM »
The thing about it is I've seen the gorilla played a few times and it always seems to do pretty well. People seem to underestimate it.
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webcatcher

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Re: Poor gorilla
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2014, 04:01:57 PM »
Here's a few ideas I've had today for the gorilla, let me know what you think (especially if you've tried these).
1) Gorilla pet: I know low level pets are usually more efficient, but the gorilla's last few life points are more efficient than his first few, so he benefits more than most from a higher starting life total.

2) Gorilla guard: Normally you use a weak attack to get rid of a guard token, then use a strong attack on a mage. But using a weak attack against the gorilla is just going to make him angry.

applepi

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Re: Poor gorilla
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2014, 04:14:41 PM »
I have a use for the gorilla- I often play with the recommended spellbooks, because all my friends still aren't that good, so I use him when the steelclaw's dead.

DeckBuilder

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Re: Poor gorilla
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2014, 06:26:50 PM »
Oh, WebC, we seem to be shockingly in tune... I too weep for the poor unloved Gorilla...

I wrote a long thread about "Resuscitating Unloved Cards"
My approach was to change the Codex, not the cards
Here is a carefully edited excerpt relating to the Gorilla.

5. Rage tokens are not removed by Healing

Nature has some great Level 4 Elites: Grizzly, Cervere, Redcalw, Galador, Kralathor - Gorilla is not one
For c.16 mana, I've far better options than a Gorilla - the solution is to make Rage and Climbing better!
Because it's enemy creature attacks only (no Jelly chomping on Thornlasher companion), it's not great
I get 4 dice now with a promise of 7 dice if I survive 3 enemy creature attacks, too much future benefit
That's why the Gorilla also needs Climbing to be upgraded

6. Climbing is a move action

Climbing currently appears on just 4 cards: Eagleclaw Boots, Gorilla, Animal Kinship and Ichthellid
Climbing currently interacts with 3 cards in a rubbish way: Wall of Stone, Wall of Steel, Wall of Bone
The moving through Passage Attacks clause makes no sense, further validating need for a re-write
To make matters worse, Restrain stops move actions but not a Climb full action, it needs a re-write

Because I can always move 1 then cast a Wall across the border I moved, Climbing is situational
Climbing as it stands is a defensive situational trait while it could be so much more useful in books
By making Climbing a move action, it solves Restrain, brings Passage Blocks mazes into the game
The mage who puts Climbing into his book is incentivised to add those Walls - good for the game

For me, the priority is to re-invigorate old cards and introduce styles, even if I'm playing fast and loose
I see no issue Climbing being code for "ignore Passage Blocked", like Reach is dubious "ignore Flying"
By making Climbing a move action, it adds relevance to this trait, opening up some interesting builds
It also solves the Restrained issue (Passage Attacks "benefit" is simply dropped as makes no sense)

I think Rage and Climbing could be such cool traits

The only reason Climbing is relevant is to don Eagleclaw Boots to climb out of a Pit
(Yes, an Ichthellid can climb over a Bone Fortress then be easily killed so it's flawed)
If the cheesy Pit strategy finally gets nerfed, what is it good for?

I don't think the Gorilla would suddenly become overpowered with these changes
There is a very easy way to avoid Rage and that's to just avoid attacking it, leaving it as a vanilla 4 dice
It would make a great Bodyguard but there are ways round this: Push, Tanglevine, Mongoose, Slam etc
Of course it's only enemy creatures so you can damage it with attack spells before swarming for the kill

Unfortunately "Resuscitating Unloved Cards" was felt to be too reactive so didn't get much open support
But I still contend you can elegantly make lots of these bad cards playable if you just changed the Codex
I mean, does anyone really play Staff of Arcanum or Mana Leeches? Now what do they have in common...
I just want these rejected cards to become useful without card erratas, by just changing their keywords

And I just wish the Gorilla could join the rest of the great level 4 Nature creatures out there to choose from
(Makunda is another poor level 4 because, even with future Cat support, he compares poorly to Redclaw)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 06:34:27 PM by DeckBuilder »
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DeckBuilder

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Re: Poor gorilla
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2014, 07:17:01 PM »
Sticking the OP, the only time I played a Gorilla was with the Jokhtaro
I chose it because it was thematic of Kumanjaro

The strategy was

Gorrilla (guards Lair) + Rhino Hide + Divine Protection

Because I was also playing Deathlock (for plentiful Bleed), the lack of healing was not an issue

It was however too big a defensive investment for a Beastmaster (even a Mid Range that planted Flowers)

And there lies the issue: it doesn't really gel with its school's strategies
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webcatcher

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Re: Poor gorilla
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2014, 08:24:16 PM »
If rage wasn't negated by healing that would fix the gorilla entirely. It would require a little set-up, but a regenerating gorilla with a fox following him around to tick him off would be great.

baronzaltor

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Re: Poor gorilla
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2014, 03:19:14 PM »
Its kind of pesky that Rage is only triggered by attack based damage and not just damage in general.. otherwise it'd have a lot of strong synergy with stuff like Plagued, or be a really good deterrent for an opponent relying on direct damage.

Since Rage is triggered by attacks,Id like to see a creature who has Rage and Intercept together.   A Vigilant+Rage creature would be pretty nasty too.

The Dude

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Re: Poor gorilla
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2014, 10:31:57 PM »
I am a derp. Apologies for the derp, and I will continue to derp.

I had forgotten the "enemy" creatures only clause, but I do think healing him up still is not a bad idea, as, yes, you have to get rage counters again, but with retaliate and guard, you should be able to do that in no time against an aggressive opponent.


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« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 12:05:48 PM by The Dude »
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