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Author Topic: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?  (Read 5608 times)

theduke850

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Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« on: September 27, 2012, 10:16:18 AM »
The situation:

 I was playing both sides of a practice game, the wizard casts the jinx enchantment (when this creature casts a quick spell, you must reveal jinx during the Counter spell step) on the warlock.

 The next round the warlock casts seeking dispel (controller of target enchantment cannot reveal the enchantment once seeking dispel has been cast) on the hidden enchantment.

I had to pause to figure out which spell takes precedence over the other, I finally decided that Seeking Dispel prevents Jinx form being revealed because of a literal interpreting of the 3 steps of casting a spell (cast, counter, resolve).

basically the Jinx spell "must" be revealed, unless otherwise prevented.

did I get this right?

as an side note, this is really the first rules question that I was unsure about... great rule book :)

Shad0w

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Re: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2012, 10:38:17 AM »
(controller of target enchantment cannot reveal the enchantment once seeking dispel has been cast)

 I finally decided that Seeking Dispel prevents Jinx form being revealed because of a literal interpreting of the 3 steps of casting a spell (cast, counter, resolve).

basically the Jinx spell "must" be revealed, unless otherwise prevented.

did I get this right? Yup - I think this was in another thread Seeking Dispel does prevent the reveal
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


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Arcanus

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Re: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2012, 11:27:42 AM »
Thanks for the compliment!

This is a really good question!

Okay, here is how this is resolved:

Casting a spell has 3 steps:
1) Cast Spell
2) Counter Spell
3) Resolve Spell

When Seeking Dispel is cast, as part of Step 1 it prevents the target enchantment from revealing.
When Step 2 is reached, the Jinx has already been locked down and cannot be revealed.  
So, the Jinx is destroyed without being revealed.

The wording on these 2 spells conflict each other, because Jinx says "must".  In cases like this where 2 equal events happen which conflict, we first default to the time sequence for resolution.  In which case we default to the first event that occurred - the Seeking Dispel preventing the revealing.  

In Mage Wars, everything happens in order, in sequence, and whenever possible we resolve conflicts in sequence, with later events not being able to change prior events.  

In rare cases, when using time sequence does not work, we default to the Initiative order, and let the player with initiative decide (that makes it easy and fullproof!   :) )

Hope this helps!

theduke850

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Re: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2012, 11:40:36 AM »
ok, thanks guys! I thought I was getting it right, but wanted to make sure.

I did look through the other rules threads, but must have missed it.

Shad0w

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Re: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2012, 11:43:45 AM »
I thought I remembered seeing it but it may have been in another thread so it no problem.
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


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Scarob

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Re: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2012, 04:44:58 PM »
but surely the effects of Seeking wouldnt happen because:

Jinx is played on a creature... then later on:

1. Seeking is cast on Jinx so it cannot be revealed - during cast step
2. Jinx is activated - during counter step
3. Seeking Dispell now has an invalid target??? - during the Seeking Dispell resolve step??

so in essence the seeking dispell does nothing as jinx is now face up and active in the game because Jinx got revealed between the casting of Seeking Dispel and the resolving of Seeking Dispel??

well thats the conclusion ive come to...despite not having even seen the cards wordings yet XD - my copy is on its way as of now :(...its taking too long XD

Gigan

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Re: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2012, 06:09:55 PM »
Well, Arcanus is the creator of Mage Wars, so his word is law.  Haha! :)

thuzl

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Re: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2012, 08:37:30 PM »
Scarob,

The important thing to remember is that Jinx cannot be revealed. If it cannot be revealed, it cannot be resolved. Face down enchantments have no effect on the game.

Hope you get your copy soon, so that you can join in the fun!!

Scarob

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Re: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2012, 03:57:06 AM »
Quote from: "Gigan" post=1440
Well, Arcanus is the creator of Mage Wars, so his word is law.  Haha! :)


haha XD

Right - so:
1. you cast spell X
2. spell X resolves
3. spell Y counters spell X
4. spell Y resolves

because that's what i'm getting from the explanations.....where as I read the rules as:
1. you cast spell X
counter y/n
2. y - spell Y resolves to counter spell X
3. n - spell X resolves due to no counter

sorry if im getting annoying pushing the subject, just getting confused with it as im still in MTG mode XD

pretty much does Seeking Dispel resolve when it is cast, or in the resolve step of the spell casting? as your explainations seem a little weird to me as it makes Seeking Dispel unstopable as it cannot be countered?????

theduke850

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Re: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2012, 07:23:09 AM »
I don't think that it's Seeking Dispel resolving which prevents Jinx from being revealed, but that Seeking Dispel has text which specifically prevents enchantments from being revealed once it is cast.

full text of Seeking Dispel:

"Destroy target hidden enchantment. Controller of the target enchantment cannot reveal the enchantment once Seeking Dispel has been cast."

so Seeking Dispel doesn't have to resolve to prevent Jinx from being revealed, it prevents it at step 1, the casting step.

it is all rather moot though thinking about it, they will both be discarded either way.

another thought/question though, if there are multiple hidden enchantments when you cast Seeking Dispel, the caster has to specify which hidden enchantment they are targeting right? and only the targeted enchantment is prevented from being revealed, any other hidden enchantments may be revealed at this time if the controller wishes to?

Shad0w

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Re: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2012, 07:41:47 AM »
Quote from: "theduke850" post=1462
I don't think that it's Seeking Dispel resolving which prevents Jinx from being revealed, but that Seeking Dispel has text which specifically prevents enchantments from being revealed once it is cast.

full text of Seeking Dispel:

"Destroy target hidden enchantment. Controller of the target enchantment cannot reveal the enchantment once Seeking Dispel has been cast."

so Seeking Dispel doesn't have to resolve to prevent Jinx from being revealed, it prevents it at step 1, the casting step.

it is all rather moot though thinking about it, they will both be discarded either way.

another thought/question though, if there are multiple hidden enchantments when you cast Seeking Dispel, the caster has to specify which hidden enchantment they are targeting right? and only the targeted enchantment is prevented from being revealed, any other hidden enchantments may be revealed at this time if the controller wishes to?


Good call duke

Another thought/question though, if there are multiple hidden enchantments when you cast Seeking Dispel, the caster has to specify which hidden enchantment they are targeting right?
Correct

Only the targeted enchantment is prevented from being revealed, any other hidden enchantments may be revealed at this time if the controller wishes to?
According to this wording "Destroy target hidden enchantment. Controller of the target enchantment cannot reveal the enchantment once Seeking Dispel has been cast." I would say that yes could reveal another enchantment. Lets see if I am correct
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


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Mestrahd

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Re: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2012, 09:39:31 AM »
And the question is not "moot" because if Seeking Dispel is the one resolving it's that controller paying the mana and not the Jinx controller. If Jinx went off, then the Seeking Dispel's controller would get a refund.

Shad0w

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Re: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2012, 10:38:03 AM »
Rather than this turning into a flame war lets look at what Bryan said.
Quote from: "Arcanus" post=1412
Thanks for the compliment!

This is a really good question!

Okay, here is how this is resolved:

Casting a spell has 3 steps:
1) Cast Spell
2) Counter Spell
3) Resolve Spell

When Seeking Dispel is cast, as part of Step 1 it prevents the target enchantment from revealing.
When Step 2 is reached, the Jinx has already been locked down and cannot be revealed.  
So, the Jinx is destroyed without being revealed.

The wording on these 2 spells conflict each other, because Jinx says "must".  In cases like this where 2 equal events happen which conflict, we first default to the time sequence for resolution.  In which case we default to the first event that occurred - the Seeking Dispel preventing the revealing.  

In Mage Wars, everything happens in order, in sequence, and whenever possible we resolve conflicts in sequence, with later events not being able to change prior events.  

In rare cases, when using time sequence does not work, we default to the Initiative order, and let the player with initiative decide (that makes it easy and fullproof!   :) )

Hope this helps!


So lets brake it down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Step 1: Cast Spell
Announce that you are casting a spell and what the target will be.

You may only choose a target that matches the target requirements listed in the casting line.

Some spells will target a zone on the game board. Other spells will target
a single object.

Pay the cost(s) of the spell

Step 2: Counter Spell
Once the spell has been cast, your opponent has a chance to “counter” it. Normally, there is nothing your opponent can do, and the spell simply takes effect.

However, some spells and abilities, such as the Nullify enchantment, may allow him to counter your spell.

When a spell is countered it is discarded without effect, and you lose the mana spent and any action used to cast the spell (unless the spell or ability which counters says otherwise).

Step 3: Resolve Spell
At this point, the spell takes effect.

The spell type (e.g., conjuration) and the text on the spell card determine the effects of the spell. If you have cast an attack spell, you must now resolve the attack.

When a spell resolves, if you find that the target of the spell is no longer valid (has moved or changed), then the spell is countered.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The trick is Seeking Dispel has text that applies on cast other text that applies on resolution. Jinx applies the "Must" reveal after the spell is cast. So Seeking Dispels "can not be revealed" text is already in effect.

I hope this helps
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

Arcanus

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Re: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2012, 11:35:34 AM »
Nicely handled Shadow!

Shad0w

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Re: Can Jinx counter Seeking Dispel?
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2012, 11:47:00 AM »
:side: I do what I can.  :silly:
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


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