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Author Topic: Possible new way for Tie Breakers  (Read 11866 times)

Death-from-above

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Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« on: May 25, 2014, 09:27:01 AM »
So I have been trying to come up with a new way to handle a tie breaker. I have never been a fan of the "Whoever has the most health after a certain amount of time wins" sort of thing because I felt that it didnt give the mages enough credit for how they played throughout the game. It sounds silly, but I didn't like the feeling of looking at the clock, realizing I only had 10 minutes left and have to abandon my strategy that I had been working the whole match for, just to try to dump as much damage as I can onto the other mage.

As I was playing Mario Party last night, I had a thought. What if a tie breaker could be done through a point system? If you don't know what Mario Party is, it is a video game that is centered around party games and the whole object of the game is to get at many stars as possible before the game ends. At the end of the game, stars are given to players who achieved certain goals in the game and that, usually, is what ends up tipping the scales for a person to win.

Essentially, what I was thinking was, what if there were certain categories prescribed at the beginning of a match that were given a point value? At the end of the game, the person who earns the most points wins. (This is strictly for handling tie breakers and not a way to replace how to actually win, which is to kill the opposing mage)A few example categories would be something like:

Most creatures still on the board = 1 point
Least amount of creatures in the dead pile = 1 point
Most health at the end of the game = 2 or 3 points
Most equipment still attached = 1 point
Most conjurations still on the board = 1 point

Those are just a few examples of categories that could be used for points, but you get the gist of what I am saying. Instead of a damage race at the last few minutes of the game, a mage could hold strong on their strategy and aim to try and win certain categories that could tip the scales in their favor. I figured still having the most health at the end of the game would give the most points, but it wouldn't be the only way to win. I'm sure there have been some games out there where a mage executes a decent strategy all game, and yet still loses in the end because the other mage just beat them out by one point of health or at the end of the game, a mage who had been getting beat on the whole game is starting to make an amazing comeback only to have the momentum stopped due to the timer running out.

I don't know; this is just something I thought of last night and I haven't had the chance to see if this would even work as well as I think it would. If I am missing a critical piece or rule to the game, let me know.
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Shad0w

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Re: Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2014, 12:19:26 PM »
Remember any tie break we choose always favors 1 build over another. That is why it has taken so long to choose what is best for the game.
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Lord0fWinter

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Re: Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2014, 12:36:25 PM »
Yeah I think most people agree that the "whoever has most health left wins" way isn't the best. There have been suggestions on other ways to do tie breakers before, not sure if you've read them or not.

I also don't know if this method has been suggested before, but I like it. Although I wouldn't use Equipment and Conjurations still in play as two of the things. Some spellbooks might just not have very many of those and it's slightly unfair to them.

I'd keep the other 3 though, and add one more.

Most creatures still on the board = 1 point
Least amount of creatures in the dead pile = 1 point
Most health at the end of the game = 3 points
Most unused spellbook points = 2 points

Total possible points = 7. It has to be an odd number for obvious reasons.

If a tie occurs (ie both Mages have 2 destroyed creatures), nobody gets the point. This means it is possible for an overall tie in points to happen, so there would either need to be a way to determine a winner after that, or simply call that case a draw.

Another intriguing way to determine tie breakers was discussed here, if you haven't read it. http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12812.msg19493#msg19493

An excerpt from it :
Here's what I propose:
  • The final portion of every tournament game is reserved for tiebreaker play. In a 90 minute tournament game, the final 15 minutes is reserved for tiebreaker play. In a 60 minute game, the final 10 minutes is reserved. Prompt play during tiebreaker game rounds is strictly mandatory.
  • When the expiration of normal time is announced, the current game round is finished and the final three rounds of play begin. The game will end when the third game round finishes, or when final time is called.
  • The three rounds of Mage Wars Tiebreaker play proceed normally, with the exception that each player must record the damage done to his or her opponent. Each round, the player who does the most damage to the opponent's Mage (including loss of life, tainted, etc) wins the round and one of three possible tiebreaker points.
  • After three tiebreaker rounds, the player with the most tiebreaker points--two out of three--is the winner.
  • If, during tiebreaker rounds, one player takes damage in excess of his or her remaining life, that player loses as normal.
  • If a tiebreaker round is tied because neither player did any damage, or because the players did equal amounts of damage, no point is awarded.
  • If, at the end of tiebreaker rounds, the players are tied in round points awarded, the winner of the game is the player who did the most total damage summed over all three rounds
  • If both players did the same amount of damage totaled over all three rounds, the game is a draw.
  • If tiebreaker time expires without the completion of all three tiebreaker rounds, end the current tiebreaker round as it stands, and score it as above. The player who has done the most damage in the portion of the round that has been played scores the point. The player with the most tiebreaker points is the winner, as usual. If the points are tied, check total damage done during tiebreaker play. If that is tied, the game is a draw, as normal

My thinking is that while 50 minutes may not actually be long enough for a control book to win, it should certainly be long enough for the control book to stabilize the game and be on its way to winning... if that's what it's going to do. If the control book can limit the damage from the agro book's last desperate gasp to kill, for two out of three rounds, it probably has the game well enough in hand that it would eventually win.

The agro book, on the other hand, is given three more rounds to kill the opponent, or at least to prove 2-out-of-3 that it is still capable of putting up a a superior fight and is not controlled. If it can do that, it wins.

Of course, either book can win the game outright--by killing the opponent-- during the overtime turns, and may very well do so now that both books must concentrate on doing at least some damage immediately, and cannot win by defense alone.

I settled on three and a half rounds of overtime (finish the final round, then take three more rounds) because it is a relatively short amount of play that two skilled and motivated players will be able to finish in the time available, and because it prevents a single surprise unrepeatable nova-damage turn (e.g. Wall of Thorns + Forcepush) from deciding the game. Whatever a player does to win, they must be able to do it twice (or do it well enough to kill the other mage). 3.5 rounds is also provides a fair distribution of initiative between the players. Each player will have the benefit of initiative twice during the overtime period.

Any thoughts or improvements?

Shad0w is right though that one style of build is always going to be favored nomatter what tie-breaking system is used. The trick is just finding the one that is most fair to everybody and doesn't make that one style have a huge advantage. And that is very hard to do.

Also, maybe this should be posted in Rules Discussion or League Play?
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Shad0w

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Re: Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2014, 04:05:06 PM »
Will be moved latter

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Zuberi

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Re: Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2014, 05:25:33 PM »
There have been many suggestions for tie breakers in the past, including a points system similar to the one you suggest. I was a big fan of the "overtime" rule (as I called it) like Lord0fWinter refers to, at one time. However, I am currently on board with the current tie breaker system, and I'll explain why.

You mention that you don't like that the game turns into a damage race during the final 10 minutes. What you seem to be forgetting is that the ENTIRE game is a damage race. Whether you take the slow and steady approach, or the blazing fast approach, you are trying to kill your opponent faster than they kill you. Ergo, a damage race. A time limit, no matter how strict or relaxed that limit may be, simply defines the pace at which the race can be ran. There's no way around this.

So, the question isn't about whether we want to change the game into a damage race, because it already is. Instead, we have this relevant question:What is a fair way to judge the damage race if time runs out and both parties have failed to complete it? I believe it boils down to three options.

1) Award victory to the person in the lead. This is the current method of judging it solely based upon health remaining and is the simplest method with the least room for controversy. If we compare it to a foot race, whomever is furthest ahead after a set time, wins. Clean, simple, and fair.

2) Award victory to the person most likely to win given an infinite amount of time. This method requires a lot of speculation and calculation, not all of which can be conducted in a completely unbiased manner. It could therefore stir a lot of ill will and controversy. How much controversy is a matter of debate, but I think we can all agree it is not as black and white as the first method.

3) Forget about who would have won the race all together and award victory based upon they way they played the game. This is probably the category that most points systems falls into, although such systems could be in the second category. Again, it is subject to a considerable amount of bias, however, as we determine what is worth points and how many points it's worth. This very noticeably affects game play as many players will then structure their builds to maximize points in addition to, or instead of, focusing solely on killing their opponent. I believe this shift in focus would negatively impact the game.

Thus, I am in favor of the current tie breaker because it is simple, easy to judge, and is the most unbiased. It KEEPS things as a damage race, which is how they begin and how they're meant to end. All it does is look at who's in the lead, who's winning, when time is called. It is true that that guy may have been recently tripped and is currently lying unmoving in the mud, but he's still ahead in the race and that is a lot easier to judge than trying to determine if he'll get back up or not.

Death-from-above

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Re: Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2014, 07:11:15 PM »
The post that LordofWinter put up was something I never thought of. I guess the main reason I wasn't a fan of this sort of tie breaker was due to my specific play style. In all games that I've played, not just mage wars, i 've always opted for a strategy that depended heavily on preparation. Taking time to make sure I've researched and set up all the contingencies I could think of before I enacted. This is why I've never done well with aggro builds. I'm so worried that if the plan of rushing the opponent right off the bat trips up on just one bad action, the game will go downhill from there. I'm a turtle mage to the core haha

I guess that's why I was looking for a different tie breaker. Something that didn't favor certain builds. Its hard thing to do haha. I do appreciate the feedback from you guys. I always learn new things whenever I post on here
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silverclawgrizzly

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Re: Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2014, 07:16:32 PM »
Here in my area we just arm wrestle for tie breaker. That or have a "Yo Momma" contest.
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Death-from-above

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Re: Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2014, 07:24:53 PM »
Here in my area we just arm wrestle for tie breaker. That or have a "Yo Momma" contest.

Thumb wrestling should work too. You might be onto something with that Yo Momma contest idea.....
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silverclawgrizzly

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Re: Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2014, 07:41:23 PM »
Hmmmm do it Mage Wars theme:

Yo Momma so fat when she damages a corporeal creature she may Reconstruct up to 2 damage!
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Death-from-above

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Re: Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2014, 07:47:27 PM »
Hmmmm do it Mage Wars theme:

Yo Momma so fat when she damages a corporeal creature she may Reconstruct up to 2 damage!

Oooh snap! Would you like a geyser for that burn???
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"Why am I not a banana?"
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silverclawgrizzly

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Re: Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2014, 08:05:19 PM »
Hmmmm do it Mage Wars theme:

Yo Momma so fat when she damages a corporeal creature she may Reconstruct up to 2 damage!

Oooh snap! Would you like a geyser for that burn???

LoL oh I can see this may need to be it's own separate thread before long.
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klaymen

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Re: Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2014, 10:50:57 PM »
Hmmmm do it Mage Wars theme:

Yo Momma so fat when she damages a corporeal creature she may Reconstruct up to 2 damage!

Yo momma so fat that she gains the Unmovable trait.
Yo momma so fat that she cannot be even teleported.
Yo momma so fat that she can barely fit into the arena.

silverclawgrizzly

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Re: Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2014, 11:50:18 PM »
Yo Momma so fat she got more Growth markers than Kralathor!
Yo Momma so ugly Necropian Vampiress refuse to regain life from her!
Yo Momma so stupid her Thoughspire is empty!
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Zuberi

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Re: Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2014, 12:31:56 AM »
This thread is veering wildly off topic. Perhaps a new one should be started to accommodate the mothers of the Arena?

silverclawgrizzly

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Re: Possible new way for Tie Breakers
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2014, 01:09:33 AM »
True that Zuberi. Making it now.
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