October 20, 2019, 01:26:51 AM

Author Topic: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker  (Read 218754 times)

jacksmack

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2015, 05:06:58 AM »
To expand further; if Akiro's Favor isn't revealed, then it can't be used to reroll. So only the Forcemaster would be able to reroll.

Where do you have this from?

Akiros favour is not worded somehting like this:
'During the roll dice step you may reroll bla bla bla'

It just says once per round.

Its just perception that dice can only be rolled / rerolled / looked at / modified during the roll dice step.
Right now - unless im missing the obvious - there is no rule supporting that it must be done alone within this step.
I understand that there is a step called 'roll dice' in the attack sequence - but that is not enough to exclude re-rolling from being done at other times.

exid

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2015, 07:08:00 AM »
To expand further; if Akiro's Favor isn't revealed, then it can't be used to reroll. So only the Forcemaster would be able to reroll.

Where do you have this from?

Akiros favour is not worded somehting like this:
'During the roll dice step you may reroll bla bla bla'

It just says once per round.

Its just perception that dice can only be rolled / rerolled / looked at / modified during the roll dice step.
Right now - unless im missing the obvious - there is no rule supporting that it must be done alone within this step.
I understand that there is a step called 'roll dice' in the attack sequence - but that is not enough to exclude re-rolling from being done at other times.

4th edition, p18: Enchantments cannot affect an event that occured before it was  revealed.
and since it can't be revealed during the step...

FrostByte

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2015, 07:56:24 AM »
4th edition, p18: Enchantments cannot affect an event that occured before it was  revealed.
and since it can't be revealed during the step...

Ah missed that bit, that makes sense.
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Zuberi

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2015, 10:39:57 AM »
@jacksmack:
Exid provided the answer. I agree that the enchantment doesn't necessarily restrict you to rerolling during the roll dice step, but it is restricted from affecting anything that occurred before it was revealed. Thus, it must be revealed before the Roll Dice Step in order to have any effect on it.

Besides that, it is still unclear whether the actual reroll happens during the Roll Dice Step or if it occurs immediately after the step. It is a very fine distinction, and shouldn't usually matter, but it is still somewhat unresolved.

sIKE

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #34 on: November 25, 2015, 10:45:51 AM »
@jacksmack:
Exid provided the answer. I agree that the enchantment doesn't necessarily restrict you to rerolling during the roll dice step, but it is restricted from affecting anything that occurred before it was revealed. Thus, it must be revealed before the Roll Dice Step in order to have any effect on it.

Besides that, it is still unclear whether the actual reroll happens during the Roll Dice Step or if it occurs immediately after the step. It is a very fine distinction, and shouldn't usually matter, but it is still somewhat unresolved.
The event that it would affect is the Apply Damages and Effects step. As long as that hasn't happened Akiro's Favor the way it is worded, would let you re-roll the Dice even though you are no longer in the Dice Rolling Step, as it is worded "Once per Round", this includes the time(s) between Steps.
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Zuberi

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2015, 10:50:26 AM »
The event that it would affect is the Apply Damages and Effects step. As long as that hasn't happened Akiro's Favor the way it is worded, would let you re-roll the Dice even though you are no longer in the Dice Rolling Step, as it is worded "Once per Round", this includes the time(s) between Steps.

Hmm, that is an interesting interpretation. You don't think that rerolling dice is somehow affecting the dice roll? I suppose it could be argued that you are doing a brand new replacement roll rather than changing the previous roll. This whole discussion has got me a bit turned around honestly. The fact that I only got 3 hours sleep last night may have something to do with that though, lol.

Coshade

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2015, 11:32:33 AM »
@jacksmack:
Exid provided the answer. I agree that the enchantment doesn't necessarily restrict you to rerolling during the roll dice step, but it is restricted from affecting anything that occurred before it was revealed. Thus, it must be revealed before the Roll Dice Step in order to have any effect on it.

Besides that, it is still unclear whether the actual reroll happens during the Roll Dice Step or if it occurs immediately after the step. It is a very fine distinction, and shouldn't usually matter, but it is still somewhat unresolved.
The event that it would affect is the Apply Damages and Effects step. As long as that hasn't happened Akiro's Favor the way it is worded, would let you re-roll the Dice even though you are no longer in the Dice Rolling Step, as it is worded "Once per Round", this includes the time(s) between Steps.

This is how I always viewed it.
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Halewijn

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #37 on: November 25, 2015, 12:16:48 PM »
@jacksmack:
Exid provided the answer. I agree that the enchantment doesn't necessarily restrict you to rerolling during the roll dice step, but it is restricted from affecting anything that occurred before it was revealed. Thus, it must be revealed before the Roll Dice Step in order to have any effect on it.

Besides that, it is still unclear whether the actual reroll happens during the Roll Dice Step or if it occurs immediately after the step. It is a very fine distinction, and shouldn't usually matter, but it is still somewhat unresolved.
The event that it would affect is the Apply Damages and Effects step. As long as that hasn't happened Akiro's Favor the way it is worded, would let you re-roll the Dice even though you are no longer in the Dice Rolling Step, as it is worded "Once per Round", this includes the time(s) between Steps.

This is how I always viewed it.
me too
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exid

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #38 on: November 25, 2015, 11:57:21 PM »
The event that it would affect is the Apply Damages and Effects step. As long as that hasn't happened Akiro's Favor the way it is worded, would let you re-roll the Dice even though you are no longer in the Dice Rolling Step, as it is worded "Once per Round", this includes the time(s) between Steps.

the event it would affect is the winning of the game, so till the game isn't finished, you can reveal akiro's favor and reroll!!!
...
about the importance of a good definition...

Schwenkgott

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2015, 02:21:08 AM »
I don't see the problem here. Who ever does not like the outcome of the roll dice step can say: I want to reroll. After that the other one can do the same.
Who ever come first, rolls first.
Akiro, I have never prayed to you before. No one will remember if we were good men or bad. Why we fought, or why we died. All that matters is that one stood against many. That's what's important! Valor pleases you, Akiro... so grant me strength! And if you do not listen, then to HELL with you!

exid

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2015, 02:33:42 AM »
I don't see the problem here. Who ever does not like the outcome of the roll dice step can say: I want to reroll. After that the other one can do the same.
Who ever come first, rolls first.
the problem is if Akira's favor isn't revealed before the roll step.

Halewijn

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2015, 03:07:03 AM »
I don't see the problem here. Who ever does not like the outcome of the roll dice step can say: I want to reroll. After that the other one can do the same.
Who ever come first, rolls first.
the problem is if Akira's favor isn't revealed before the roll step.

Schwenkgott says the exact thing I was thinking.

If it is possible to reveal brace yourself/ rhino hide AFTER the dice have been rolled it should also be possible to reveal akiro's favor afterwards. Don't make it harder by making differences between enchantments for some kind of different interpretation. I see why you would not allow it, but it is just as easy to advocate the opposite. The game is hard enough as it is.
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Moonglow

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2015, 03:47:34 AM »
They are different though, neither brace  yourself or rhino hide are trying to alter the dice roll that has already happened, they are influencing the application of the damage, which is a clear next step.


I don't see the problem here. Who ever does not like the outcome of the roll dice step can say: I want to reroll. After that the other one can do the same.
Who ever come first, rolls first.
the problem is if Akira's favor isn't revealed before the roll step.

Schwenkgott says the exact thing I was thinking.

If it is possible to reveal brace yourself/ rhino hide AFTER the dice have been rolled it should also be possible to reveal akiro's favor afterwards. Don't make it harder by making differences between enchantments for some kind of different interpretation. I see why you would not allow it, but it is just as easy to advocate the opposite. The game is hard enough as it is.

exid

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2015, 04:13:37 AM »
i agree with moonglow.

and i agree with Halewijn: it's more complicate.
but in a game i need to have precise rulles to make it fluent!

Halewijn

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2015, 06:15:54 AM »
In my opinion revealing brace yourself/rhino hide after the dice were rolled is also ridiculous. "Oh, the opponent has just hit me with a hard hit, let's brace myself ". The point of armor/defensive stance is to get it BEFORE it hits you. It's very illogical to say there is a finite time to react between "getting hit" and "getting damage". Before I was active on this forum we didn't play it like that. Revealing enchantments was only possible before rolling the dice.

For a while now I also play it like everybody else. But differentiating between enchantments seems like a horrible idea. Keep it one way or another:

- for the sake of realism: do not allow it.
- for the sake of the mechanics: allow it.

The interpretation difference of Moonglow/Exid & Schwenkgott/myself. Neither of us is wrong or right. It's really just how you view the effect/description.
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