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Author Topic: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker  (Read 218795 times)

wtcannonjr

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2015, 09:15:59 AM »
They are different though, neither brace  yourself or rhino hide are trying to alter the dice roll that has already happened, they are influencing the application of the damage, which is a clear next step.


I don't see the problem here. Who ever does not like the outcome of the roll dice step can say: I want to reroll. After that the other one can do the same.
Who ever come first, rolls first.
the problem is if Akira's favor isn't revealed before the roll step.

Schwenkgott says the exact thing I was thinking.

If it is possible to reveal brace yourself/ rhino hide AFTER the dice have been rolled it should also be possible to reveal akiro's favor afterwards. Don't make it harder by making differences between enchantments for some kind of different interpretation. I see why you would not allow it, but it is just as easy to advocate the opposite. The game is hard enough as it is.
I think moonglows point is key.

It is the relationship between the enchantment's effect and the sequence of play that determines when to reveal. Effects don't influence past events. That simplifies the timing for players IMO. In some cases like Rhino Hide or Brace Yourself the player will know the potential result and change the actual result using a reveal based on the sequence of play. I.e. Roll Dice Step only determines potential damage. The Apply Damage and Effects Step determines actual damage. In other situations the result will not yet be known before you need to reveal if you want the opportunity to influence the result. This is the case as I see it with Akiro's Favor. You are revealing to gain the opportunity to influence a result in the next step.

This is the way we have been playing from the start. It feels much easier to just remember the phases and steps of a round and remember that effects must be revealed in order to influence the next step about to take place. So it is always forward thinking.
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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2015, 12:13:48 PM »
I was commenting more from a rules perspective.  In a realism sense I'd note that the spell is already cast, just not revealed.  In that moment of impact, where its like holy $hit this is going to hurt! the mage winks in the final step for rhino hide to be revealed.

Now akiros favour could do the same as the other mage picks up the huge handful of dice, but if they didn't, its too late to say ooohhh shite I've going to die, please god pretend I'd asked your favour 0.3 seconds ago!


In my opinion revealing brace yourself/rhino hide after the dice were rolled is also ridiculous. "Oh, the opponent has just hit me with a hard hit, let's brace myself ". The point of armor/defensive stance is to get it BEFORE it hits you. It's very illogical to say there is a finite time to react between "getting hit" and "getting damage". Before I was active on this forum we didn't play it like that. Revealing enchantments was only possible before rolling the dice.

For a while now I also play it like everybody else. But differentiating between enchantments seems like a horrible idea. Keep it one way or another:

- for the sake of realism: do not allow it.
- for the sake of the mechanics: allow it.

The interpretation difference of Moonglow/Exid & Schwenkgott/myself. Neither of us is wrong or right. It's really just how you view the effect/description.

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2015, 01:23:03 PM »
so, how do you see 0.3 seconds before it hits you if it's piercing damage or not?  ??? I don't bother revealing brace yourself if it's all piercing.

And how can you determine how hard something hits before it hits you? And what do you base yourself on that akiro (a god) cannot help you, but for some reason you are able to change your entire stance or grow another hide in 0.3 seconds.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 01:24:52 PM by Halewijn »
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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2015, 05:27:26 PM »
Its magic man, its magic! :) 

I guess the main point here is that the game is designed to minimise take backs/unwinds.  Once something has happened, you can't reverse it.  If the dice are rolled, you can't change your ability to reroll them - if you have the ability to reroll them, then when they're rolled you can.  If the damage is allocated, you can't suddenly change your mind and reveal rhino hide to make it less (although in most games I'd probably let you as the line there seems pretty arbitrary, but its a house rule/gentleman's agreement).

Mage wars gets tense enough as it is with the revealing your plan to see if they can counter it, revealing stuff after I've landed a good hit would drive me nuts :) 

I think the steps in rules v4 are pretty clear (and not that different to previous steps).  Reveals applying to future steps, not previous steps seems a fair and consistent application.  Its not as fickle as you seem to feel if you are clear about the attack resolution steps.


wtcannonjr

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2015, 09:17:26 PM »

I think the steps in rules v4 are pretty clear (and not that different to previous steps).  Reveals applying to future steps, not previous steps seems a fair and consistent application.  Its not as fickle as you seem to feel if you are clear about the attack resolution steps.

Plus, this logic seems much easier to program in an app. :)
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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #50 on: November 27, 2015, 06:01:20 AM »
I see the entry that has been quoted from 4th edition rulebook as its to prevent instances like agony being revealed after the dice roll step.
Flipping up a poisened blood after the opponenet used Hand of Bim to heal cant cancel the healing, etc etc.

We can all agree that revealling agony, marked for death or bearstrength after the dice roll step will not change the amount of dice already rolled. This is excately what the rule already quoted rule entry covers.

About Akiros:
Does if 're-rolling' count as 'affecting' as such? in my very (subjective) opinion it does not.
To me: It's changing something a previous step in the same way that 'reverse magic' does.

For Reverse Magic:
Step 1: Declare Spell
Announce that you are casting a spell and what the target will be.
Reverse magic is revealled during step 3 (4th edition rulebook) - the counter spell step.
Here its actually 'affecting' something in step 1.

Perhaps declaring spells and target is not comparable to re-rolling?


Its bad for the enchantment aspect of the game when you have to reveal something in advance before you know if you actually want to make use of the effect. (IE both the dice and effect dice rolls good).

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #51 on: November 27, 2015, 07:37:19 AM »
I see the entry that has been quoted from 4th edition rulebook as its to prevent instances like agony being revealed after the dice roll step.
Flipping up a poisened blood after the opponenet used Hand of Bim to heal cant cancel the healing, etc etc.

We can all agree that revealling agony, marked for death or bearstrength after the dice roll step will not change the amount of dice already rolled. This is excately what the rule already quoted rule entry covers.

About Akiros:
Does if 're-rolling' count as 'affecting' as such? in my very (subjective) opinion it does not.
To me: It's changing something a previous step in the same way that 'reverse magic' does.

For Reverse Magic:
Step 1: Declare Spell
Announce that you are casting a spell and what the target will be.
Reverse magic is revealled during step 3 (4th edition rulebook) - the counter spell step.
Here its actually 'affecting' something in step 1.

Perhaps declaring spells and target is not comparable to re-rolling?


Its bad for the enchantment aspect of the game when you have to reveal something in advance before you know if you actually want to make use of the effect. (IE both the dice and effect dice rolls good).

If you read the text on Reverse Magic it is revealed differently than most enchantments. It specifically states that it must be revealed DURING the Counter Spell Step. Not before or after. So in this case the change in targets is an effect that happens during the Counter Spell Step and the Magic Rule would apply. Specific text on a card overrides the general rules and in this case allows a targeting decision to be changed before the spell is resolved. At this point in the Cast Spell action the spell and it's effects are not yet in play since it has not resolved.

Akiro's Favor does not specify that the reroll of attack dice takes place outside of the Roll Dice Step whereas Reverse Magic specifically does state that the spell target is changed during the Counter Spell Step. That is the key difference I see.

We play that attack dice are rolled and rerolled in the Roll Dice Step. This prevents us from revealing Akiro's Favor later in the round and rerolling the creatures attack dice after say 3 other creatures have activated. We assume that the sequence of play is defined for the purpose of limiting when players can take actions and apply effects. If the designers wanted to allow rerolls of attack dice outside of the step in the attack action that specifies when you roll dice, then that would be stated specifically on the card like the example you found on Reverse Magic.
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sIKE

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #52 on: November 27, 2015, 09:02:04 AM »
I see the entry that has been quoted from 4th edition rulebook as its to prevent instances like agony being revealed after the dice roll step.
Flipping up a poisened blood after the opponenet used Hand of Bim to heal cant cancel the healing, etc etc.

We can all agree that revealling agony, marked for death or bearstrength after the dice roll step will not change the amount of dice already rolled. This is excately what the rule already quoted rule entry covers.

About Akiros:
Does if 're-rolling' count as 'affecting' as such? in my very (subjective) opinion it does not.
To me: It's changing something a previous step in the same way that 'reverse magic' does.

For Reverse Magic:
Step 1: Declare Spell
Announce that you are casting a spell and what the target will be.
Reverse magic is revealled during step 3 (4th edition rulebook) - the counter spell step.
Here its actually 'affecting' something in step 1.

Perhaps declaring spells and target is not comparable to re-rolling?


Its bad for the enchantment aspect of the game when you have to reveal something in advance before you know if you actually want to make use of the effect. (IE both the dice and effect dice rolls good).

If you read the text on Reverse Magic it is revealed differently than most enchantments. It specifically states that it must be revealed DURING the Counter Spell Step. Not before or after. So in this case the change in targets is an effect that happens during the Counter Spell Step and the Magic Rule would apply. Specific text on a card overrides the general rules and in this case allows a targeting decision to be changed before the spell is resolved. At this point in the Cast Spell action the spell and it's effects are not yet in play since it has not resolved.

Akiro's Favor does not specify that the reroll of attack dice takes place outside of the Roll Dice Step whereas Reverse Magic specifically does state that the spell target is changed during the Counter Spell Step. That is the key difference I see.

We play that attack dice are rolled and rerolled in the Roll Dice Step. This prevents us from revealing Akiro's Favor later in the round and rerolling the creatures attack dice after say 3 other creatures have activated. We assume that the sequence of play is defined for the purpose of limiting when players can take actions and apply effects. If the designers wanted to allow rerolls of attack dice outside of the step in the attack action that specifies when you roll dice, then that would be stated specifically on the card like the example you found on Reverse Magic.
Wow I just see the fun draining out of the game. So mechanical and chess like. However much I dislike it, I think the new and revised designers intent, is as WT has written. The openness that was the original intent of Enchantments (what truly made the game different from the likes of Magic) has proven to much for the game and left so many corner-cases that everything about Enchantments has been changed to make it "simple". One of the things I will work on as playtester is to make sure that , for upcoming releases, the card text and intent (i.e. if it is supposed to override the standard rules) it clearly included on the cards.

As for my favorite game I think that I am drifting away from it as it changes to something less joyful.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 11:43:49 AM by sIKE »
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Halewijn

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #53 on: November 27, 2015, 11:41:26 AM »
Wow I just see the fun draining out of the game. So mechanical and chess like. However much I dislike it, I think the new and revised designers intent, is as WT has written. The openness that was the original intent of Enchantments (what truly made the game different from the likes of Magic) has proven to much for the game and left so many cases that everything about Enchantments has been changed to make it "simple". Once of the things I will work on as playtester is to make sure that the card text and intent (i.e. if it is supposed to override the standard rules) it clearly included on the cards.

As for my favorite game I think that I am drifting away from it as it changes to something less joyful.

Couldn't agree more with Sike... Frankly, I don't even care what the actual outcome of this discussion is. Do we allow changing it? fine. Is it too late? also fine.

But, It would really be a shame if enchantments have a completely different interpretation because it is worded slightly different. 99% of the players will not know these small differences. And you will just have players saying "you cannot do this particular move: read page 7 on the tread x", thus fucking up the opponents turn.

Mage wars presents itself with rules being natural. "if you have doubts about a certain rules, just use the ones that feel correct. You will probably be correct and afterwards you can look it up"

There are already A LOT of small rules, and even experienced players make some mistakes during a game. I really don't see any advantage in nazi ruling/nitpicking every single card and making it almost impossible for a casual player to know them.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 11:47:44 AM by Halewijn »
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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2015, 12:06:03 PM »
"if you have doubts about a certain rules, just use the ones that feel correct. You will probably be correct and afterwards you can look it up"

this is a beautifull dream but no rull!
there are games with very natural rulles, but MW is not. a so complicate game, with so many possibilties, must have a clear frame or you can do whatever you want, and nobody can see it come, there's no game anymore!
with good clear rulles you don't become a "nazi", rulles make the game lighter, when the players don't "feel corrrect" in the same way they know what is right and go on!

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Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #55 on: November 27, 2015, 12:55:35 PM »
Wow I just see the fun draining out of the game. So mechanical and chess like. However much I dislike it, I think the new and revised designers intent, is as WT has written. The openness that was the original intent of Enchantments (what truly made the game different from the likes of Magic) has proven to much for the game and left so many cases that everything about Enchantments has been changed to make it "simple". Once of the things I will work on as playtester is to make sure that the card text and intent (i.e. if it is supposed to override the standard rules) it clearly included on the cards.

As for my favorite game I think that I am drifting away from it as it changes to something less joyful.

Couldn't agree more with Sike... Frankly, I don't even care what the actual outcome of this discussion is. Do we allow changing it? fine. Is it too late? also fine.

But, It would really be a shame if enchantments have a completely different interpretation because it is worded slightly different. 99% of the players will not know these small differences. And you will just have players saying "you cannot do this particular move: read page 7 on the tread x", thus fucking up the opponents turn.

Mage wars presents itself with rules being natural. "if you have doubts about a certain rules, just use the ones that feel correct. You will probably be correct and afterwards you can look it up"

There are already a LOT of small rules, and even experienced players make some mistakes during a game. I really don't see any advantage in nazi ruling/nitpicking every single card and making it almost impossible for a casual player to know them.

To me it looks like there are two separate problems with different causes: the increase in the learning curve and the decrease in fun.

I suspect the increase in the learning curve is caused  by the increase in the number of edge cases and cards that override the rules. The latter could be fixed with errata to cards to change their wording, like having reanimate target the zone rather than the target discard pile, and then choose the creature from the discard pile.

As for the decrease in fun, that's probably more because of insufficient diversity in the global metagame and the lack of local interest in some places caused by the delays in new products and long play time, and the balance issues caused by wizard tower for the past year or two. From what I recall, the largest ever turn-out for a Mage Wars tournament was 30 people at Gen Con, right? 30 people doesn't seem like many. However, considering that Seasons, a similar looking game published in the same year has only 73 likes on Facebook while Mage wars has over 4000, I'm hoping that this is just growing pains for the game. Mage Wars is only 3 years old after all.
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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #56 on: November 27, 2015, 01:06:56 PM »
I'm not against rules by the way. Rules are needed and, apart from some small ones, I really like the mechanics of most of the rules. (And I do feel most of them are natural) The deepness/complexity of this game is one of the reasons the game is as brilliant as it is! And maybe that game out wrong in my previous post. (sorry  :P )

I'm just not a fan of digging even deeper. It takes a long time before people know all the small things and we don't need more of them. Saying akiro's favor cannot be revealed after the roll but brace yourself can.. That's just one step too far for me.  :) making it unnecessarily complex.

ps: meant "rules nazi" as in "grammar nazi" but with rules. Did not want to offend with the literal meaning.
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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #57 on: November 28, 2015, 12:57:54 AM »
I'm not against rules by the way. Rules are needed and, apart from some small ones, I really like the mechanics of most of the rules. (And I do feel most of them are natural) The deepness/complexity of this game is one of the reasons the game is as brilliant as it is! And maybe that game out wrong in my previous post. (sorry  :P )

I'm just not a fan of digging even deeper. It takes a long time before people know all the small things and we don't need more of them. Saying akiro's favor cannot be revealed after the roll but brace yourself can.. That's just one step too far for me.  :) making it unnecessarily complex.

ps: meant "rules nazi" as in "grammar nazi" but with rules. Did not want to offend with the literal meaning.

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #58 on: November 28, 2015, 10:27:40 AM »
Effects don't influence past events.

I do not see how the roll is set in stone once you move past the roll dice step. I also don't know where what I have quoted, above, is in the rules (except as specific exceptions / clarifications for other spells).

FWIW, the way I look at it: Akiro's Favor can be revealed between Roll Dice and Damage and Effects, since it is an enchantment. Since AF allows a reroll if 1) you are making a melee or ranged attack, and 2) rerolling is allowed once per round; you can reroll, even if you are beyond the roll dice step (and the effects of the dice have not yet been determined)... just like you can reveal a Brace Yourself, Fortified Position, or Rhino Hide prior to determining the actual effects.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2015, 10:29:55 AM by DaveW »
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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #59 on: November 28, 2015, 12:30:41 PM »
Am I right that the question seems to hinge on what a re-roll is and when you can do it?

If that's the case the answer would seem to be undefined.
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