October 17, 2019, 11:06:42 AM

Author Topic: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker  (Read 218703 times)

sIKE

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2015, 12:03:22 PM »
Though it does not say what step, logic tells us that it has to be before the Damage and Effects Step, and you typically will typically decide if you want to use the power of either card after the initial Dice Roll of the Dice Roll step. So this all has to be done between those two.
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FrostByte

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2015, 12:08:03 PM »
Though it does not say what step, logic tells us that it has to be before the Damage and Effects Step, and you typically will typically decide if you want to use the power of either card after the initial Dice Roll of the Dice Roll step. So this all has to be done between those two.

In this case the Akiros Favor had not yet been revealed.  Could have been revealed and used between the roll dice and the damage steps?
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exid

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2015, 01:24:19 PM »
i think all dices must be rolled and re-rolled and re-re-re-re-rolled during the roll step.
and no enchantement can be revealed during the step.

if both the favor and the temple are in playe and revealed during the roll step, the initiative player can re-roll, then the non-initiative player can re-roll... and if the initiative player didn't re-roll and the non-initiative did, the initiative player can re-roll afterwards.

Zuberi

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2015, 03:52:16 PM »
Both sIKE and Exid have plausible interpretations. On the one hand, you will logically choose whether or not to reroll in between the initial roll and the application of the roll, which means it makes sense for these effects to occur between the Roll Dice Step and the Apply Damage and Effects Step. On the other hand, it makes sense for all dice rolling to occur during the Roll Dice Step. Without any limitations listed on the cards or in the rules though, I personally prefer sIKE's interpretation and would play it that these effects occur between Steps.

jacksmack

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2015, 04:24:37 PM »
If akiro is revealed there is nothing preventing you from rolling during a step.

Just like you can reroll the Daze during a step and like wise reroll a defense with Dawnbreaker during a step.


jacksmack

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2015, 04:28:35 PM »
Heh... now after reading quicksand again and dawnbreaker i believe by strictly reading the cards that if you choose to reroll the escape roll and fail both rolls than 2 counters will be added.

And if the first rolls fail and that brings it to 4 counters then the creature dies despite that you wish to reroll.

sIKE

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2015, 04:55:38 PM »
Both sIKE and Exid have plausible interpretations. On the one hand, you will logically choose whether or not to reroll in between the initial roll and the application of the roll, which means it makes sense for these effects to occur between the Roll Dice Step and the Apply Damage and Effects Step. On the other hand, it makes sense for all dice rolling to occur during the Roll Dice Step. Without any limitations listed on the cards or in the rules though, I personally prefer sIKE's interpretation and would play it that these effects occur between Steps.
Well that is very interesting, think about it a bit deeper. If you are talking about the conjuration the I guess you could still use it in the "Roll Dice Step" and if Akiro is already revealed before the Dice Roll step, then I guess the same would apply. However if you choose to reveal Akiro after you Rolled the Dice then the roll that you make at that point would be in-between the two steps.
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wtcannonjr

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2015, 05:36:01 PM »
I don't have the rules in front of me but I thought there was a general rule description in the enchantment reveal rules that new enchantments don't impact steps, actions or phases that have already taken place. This interpretation would then require Akiros's Favor to be revealed before the Roll Dice step in order for the reroll effect to impact a dice roll during the Roll Dice step. If we waited until the end of the step to reveal it, then I think you would need to wait for a future roll to use the reroll effect.
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Moonglow

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2015, 07:42:25 PM »
These two cards have completely different functions. Akiro's Favor lets you reroll when attacking, whereas Temple of the Dawnbreaker lets you reroll when defending or escaping. Combine the two, and you just have both effects - I don't think the two cards interact with each other at all.

The do and they don't,  Dawnbreaker does allow you to reroll the attack (or effect) dice affecting a friendly creature.

Zuberi

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2015, 08:51:03 PM »
I don't have the rules in front of me but I thought there was a general rule description in the enchantment reveal rules that new enchantments don't impact steps, actions or phases that have already taken place. This interpretation would then require Akiros's Favor to be revealed before the Roll Dice step in order for the reroll effect to impact a dice roll during the Roll Dice step. If we waited until the end of the step to reveal it, then I think you would need to wait for a future roll to use the reroll effect.

Hmm, that is actually completely correct. I failed to think of that because rerolling seems like something that naturally affects an event that already occurred, but that doesn't allow an enchantment to do so. You are right, I think the enchant would need to be revealed before the roll took place in order to affect it.

exid

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2015, 11:29:03 PM »
yes, p 18: Enchantments cannot affect...

so, akiro's favor can't be revealled aferwards, and the initiative rulles if it is allready reveald .

sIKE

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2015, 12:24:16 AM »
In this new world I am not sure, but in the old world I agreed with this:

Re: How long can i/ should i wait to reveal enchantments?

But I don't know any more. There was a nice flow and logic to all of this in the older rule set, but it was too loose and left a lot of overhang, and was updated to be much more rigid to help solve many issues, in many ways it was worked and in some it hasn't, it has just torn off the bandage and we have to go through the whole process again.

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theasaris

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2015, 12:46:32 AM »
Ok, it still seems as if the issue is unclear. :(

Here's the precise situation that had us confused:

Forcemaster has Initiative.

Forcemaster has a ready Temple of the Dawnbreaker in play.

Beastmaster's Dire Wolf with face-down Akiro's Favor attacks Forcemaster and rolls 5 damage.

Questions:

1.) Who may/must decide first whether to reroll?

2.) If the answer to 1.) is Forcemaster due to having Initiative, can Dire Wolf reveal Akiro's Favor to reroll in response to Forcemasters decision?

3.) Would the answer to 2.) be different if Beastmaster had the Initiative?

4.) Would the answer to 1.) be different if Akiro's Favor were already revealed?

5.) Would the answer to 2.) be different if Akiro's Favor were already revealed?


exid

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2015, 01:14:13 AM »
Ok, it still seems as if the issue is unclear. :(

Here's the precise situation that had us confused:

Forcemaster has Initiative.

Forcemaster has a ready Temple of the Dawnbreaker in play.

Beastmaster's Dire Wolf with face-down Akiro's Favor attacks Forcemaster and rolls 5 damage.

Questions:

1.) Who may/must decide first whether to reroll?

2.) If the answer to 1.) is Forcemaster due to having Initiative, can Dire Wolf reveal Akiro's Favor to reroll in response to Forcemasters decision?

3.) Would the answer to 2.) be different if Beastmaster had the Initiative?

4.) Would the answer to 1.) be different if Akiro's Favor were already revealed?

5.) Would the answer to 2.) be different if Akiro's Favor were already revealed?

i see it this way:

1) only the FM CAN reroll

2)3) questions eliminated

4) if A'sF were allready revealed:
FM can reroll, then BM can reroll, and then FM can reroll (if she didn't yet and BM did)

5) question eliminated

Zuberi

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Re: Akiros Favor VS Temple of the Dawnbreaker
« Reply #29 on: November 25, 2015, 01:33:57 AM »
To expand further; if Akiro's Favor isn't revealed, then it can't be used to reroll. So only the Forcemaster would be able to reroll.

If Akiros Favor was already revealed, then the person with initiative (the Forcemaster) decides first whether they want to reroll or not. Regardless of their decision, the Beastmaster could then decide to reroll. If the Forcemaster passed initially but the Beastmaster rerolled, the Forcemaster could then decide to reroll the new result.