August 20, 2019, 12:21:57 AM

Poll

How should Reverse Magic function post Gencon?

RM: Removes all other triggers and goes back to casting step?
8 (47.1%)
RM: Forces you out of the counter spell step to the resolve spell step?
2 (11.8%)
RM: Function does not change but the wording does?
5 (29.4%)
RM: Is fine as is
2 (11.8%)
I do not understand the poll
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 19, 2014, 01:14:13 PM

Author Topic: Nullifying a Reverse Magic  (Read 14648 times)

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« on: July 31, 2014, 05:46:04 PM »
I looked all around of the forums to see if I could find a ruling. I was having a post game conversation on OCTGN with Imaginator and said that I if I was his opponent that I would of loved to Reverse Magic his Drain Life. He said it would not of mattered as he already had a Nullify and he would have to reveal it to counter the Drain Life.

I thought that once the Reverse Magic was revealed that the Counterspell Step was over and therefore Nullify would not be able to be played. I.E. you can't Reverse Magic a Reverse Magic. Am I wrong?
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3128
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2014, 05:49:46 PM »
This is how I understand it.

1. Cast spell step: I cast drain life on my opponent.
2. Counter spell step: Opponent reveals reverse magic, takes control of my drain life, becomes the new caster of the spell, and redirect's the spell back at me. This forces my own reverse magic to reveal, I pay the mana and the drain life goes back at my opponent again. Since there is no ruling anywhere in the rulebook, faq or forum that says that a maximum of only one counter spell can be revealed during the counter spell step, I must conclude for now that reverse magic can still activate in response to a spell that has already been reversed.

Note: Someone might bring up the example of mind shield, but that example has no bearing on this question. Mind shield directly counters a counter spell during the reveal enchantment step and not the counter spell step. The second reverse magic does not counter the first reverse magic, though. It causes the drain life to target the mage it's being redirected to.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:06:14 PM by Imaginator »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

sIKE

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 4172
  • Banana Stickers 18
  • Ugh
    • View Profile
Re: Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2014, 05:57:46 PM »
Reverse magic does not target reverse magic. It targets the same spell that the first reverse magic targets.
It wouldn't target the same spell it would target the original mage. In the example we discussed, you would reveal Reverse Magic during the Counter Spell step and take control of the Drain Life, now the question becomes are we still in the Counter Spell step? If so then you can reveal the Nullify/Reverse Magic, if not and things have moved to the Resolve Spell step then the there would not be the chance to reveal a counter spell.

I guess what is frustrating to me is that clarity is not here after all of this time. I went looking for a ruling on this and found nothing. I surely would of thought that a ruling like once a spell is revealed during the counter spell step, it is now over and process now moves to the Resolve Spell step would of been documented and marked up in the FAQ by now.

*** Or if the ruling went the other way that ruling would be in the FAQ ***
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 06:02:43 PM by sIKE »
  • Favourite Mage: Malakai Priest

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3128
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Re: Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2014, 06:00:00 PM »
sorry i mispoke/forgot for a moment about the specific meaning of the word "target". I'll rephrase it.
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

echephron

  • Player
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 692
  • Banana Stickers 0
  • The finest in mage wear...
    • View Profile
Re: Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2014, 06:22:07 PM »
How do we not have a ruling on nullifying a reverse magic? those cards came out forever ago. You'd think it owuld be ironed out.

my sheer opinion is that you can nullify that, because we havent left the "counter spell" step yet.

what about using Block on a Reverse Attack?
I figure it would be the same ruling, which is we havent left the "avoid attack" step yet.
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2014, 09:54:31 PM »
You already asked that question sIKE: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=5407.msg10766#msg10766

You got an answer, but not an official.

And to me it is clear that you are still in the Counterspell step, so Nullify will trigger.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 09:56:56 PM by Wildhorn »

Sailor Vulcan

  • Secret Identity: Imaginator
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 3128
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2014, 09:58:22 PM »
You already asked that question sIKE: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=5407.msg10766#msg10766

You got an answer, but not an official.

No that was a different question. What were asking about here is not about a nullify and a reverse magic on the same mage simultaneously. Here we're talking about mage A casting an incant/enchant on mage B, activating mage B's reverse magic while mage A has a nullify on themself. Does the nullify activate in response to the spell that the reverse magic redirected?


Edit: nvm I see it. It's written in a tangled confusing way, but it's essentially what I said in the earlier post in this thread.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 10:04:57 PM by Imaginator »
  • Favourite Mage: Salenia Forcemaster
I am Sailor Vulcan! Champion of justice and reason! And yes, I am already aware my uniform is considered flashy, unprofessional, and borderline sexually provocative for my species by most intelligent lifeforms. I did not choose this outfit. Shut up.

Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2014, 09:59:53 PM »
You already asked that question sIKE: http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=5407.msg10766#msg10766

You got an answer, but not an official.

No that was a different question. What were asking about here is not about a nullify and a reverse magic on the same mage simultaneously. Here we're talking about mage A casting an incant/enchant on mage B, activating mage B's reverse magic while mage A has a nullify on themself. Does the nullify activate in response to the spell that the reverse magic redirected?

Oh, you are right... i read it wrong.
Edit: nvm I see it

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2014, 02:10:48 AM »
Reverse Magic
Current Text: As of May 12 2014

"When this creature is targeted by an incantation or enchantment spell controlled by an opponent, you must reveal Reverse Magic during the Counter Spell Step. Redirect it back to the caster, who now becomes the target of the spell. You become the caster of that spell, and now control that spell, and may reselect any other choices the spell requires you to make. Recalculate the total mana cost of the spell; if the new cost is higher than the original cost, you must pay the difference. Then, destroy Reverse Magic."


When you cast a spell, follow these steps in order:

Cast Spell
Counter Spell
Resolve Spell



So to go in order;
1. Cast spell step:
I cast drain life on my opponent.

2. Counter spell step:

Opponent reveals reverse magic,
Redirects the spell back at me,
then becomes the new caster of the spell and takes control of my drain life
If drain life could have more targets they could be added on at this point.

At this point we are still in the Counter Spell step

Nullify reads:
When this creature is targeted by an incantation or enchantment spell controlled by an opponent . You must reveal Nullify during the counter spell step.This spell is counter then destroy Nullify.

Lets look at RM quickly for a sec

 Redirect it back to the caster , who now becomes the target of the spell.

You become the caster of that spell, and now control that spell.

So RM changes targets then it changes control

If we look at Nullify it has another clause (spell controlled by an opponent ). Nullify will not make a mandatory trigger since RM causes the caster to target themselves then changes ownership.

Remember we are still in the counter spell step.

Step 2: Counter Spell
Some spells and abilities, such as the Nullify enchantment, may allow him to counter your spell.

So Nullify does not have a mandatory trigger at this point but the controller may still choose to reveal it. Before moving to the step 3 Resolve spell.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 12:17:18 PM by Shad0w »
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1056
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2014, 02:46:58 AM »
what about using Block on a Reverse Attack?
I figure it would be the same ruling, which is we havent left the "avoid attack" step yet.

Reverse attack will not trigger block because the text on reverse attack says 'for step 3 and 4' which means its too late for block to take effect.
It also means that the block gets to stay on the target because the force reveal is during step 2.


With the current wording i believe that nullify will counter your own incatation/enchantment that your opponent reverse magic back to you.

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2014, 03:06:39 AM »
Jack you were a few seconds early :P
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

Shad0w

  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 2934
  • Banana Stickers 0
    • View Profile
Re: Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2014, 03:09:01 AM »

Reverse attack will not trigger block because the text on reverse attack says 'for step 3 and 4' which means its too late for block to take effect.
It also means that the block gets to stay on the target because the force reveal is during step 2.


Correct and worth a sticker.
"Darth come prove to meet you are worthy of the fighting for your school in the arena and not just another scholar to be discarded like an worn out rag doll"


Quote: Shad0w the Arcmage

jacksmack

  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1056
  • Banana Stickers 19
    • View Profile
Re: Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2014, 03:37:53 AM »
i dont get the part with nullify.

Are you saying nullify can be choosed to counter, but no mandatory reveal?


Wildhorn

  • Superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine.
  • Legendary Mage
  • *****
  • Posts: 1063
  • Banana Stickers 3
    • View Profile
    • Mage Wars Quebec
Re: Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2014, 06:23:18 AM »
i dont get the part with nullify.

Are you saying nullify can be choosed to counter, but no mandatory reveal?

Yeah, i dont get it either why the reveal would not be mandatory.

echephron

  • Player
  • Playtester
  • Legendary Mage
  • *
  • Posts: 692
  • Banana Stickers 0
  • The finest in mage wear...
    • View Profile
Re: Nullifying a Reverse Magic
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2014, 07:42:08 AM »
I've heard that ruling on reverse attack before, but I disagree. Reverse attack does not say you have left the "avoid attack" step. it just clarifies that the future steps have a different target. You reveal reverse attack in the middle of the avoid attack step, so there is plenty of avoid attack step left to use a defense, mandatory reveal a block, ect. The ruling is that once reverse attack is revealed, you are no longer in the avoid attack step.  I feel like I'm hogging the thread to rant on reverse attack though, so I'll stop.

I guess for reverse attack (but not reverse magic), the original attack is the "controller" of the attack so they can do things like use Akiros Favor to mitigate the damage.  I can now see how block and nullify are different though. block triggers on any attack, but nullify only triggers on an enemy "attack"(spell thingy)
  • Favourite Mage: Wychwood Druid