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Author Topic: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell  (Read 5025 times)

DaveW

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Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« on: August 09, 2014, 07:54:18 AM »
I found only one possibly useful thread when I looked (http://forum.arcanewonders.com/index.php?topic=12761.msg18915#msg18915), and I can't view the diagram included there... so I need to ask a couple of questions:



1) Is LOS required when making the attack caused by "Opening" the Gate to Hell? I know that the attack does not affect non-creatures (like walls), but do walls or Rolling Fog, or the like prevent the attack against a particular creature? From reading the card, it doesn't sound as if LOS from the Gate is required. (Note that the attack is neither Ranged nor Melee.)

OK, I just found the Targeting topic on page 15, which says that you have to have LOS to make any attack... but does this make sense with regard to the Gate's attack in Rolling Fog? It seems that the heat would get to the creature even if it can't "see" it due to fog alone... no? I can understand how a corporeal wall might block the heat... but not an incorporeal one.

2) Also, while opening the Gate to Hell is a Creature action, the Source of the attack is the Gate itself, correct? The rules codex on page 4 (Attack Source) may need to be updated to include this card, in addition to Chain Lightning and Reverse Attack. The only reason to suspect that the Source might be the Mage instead seems to be that the Mage must use his action and his mana to initiate the attack.

Thanks in advance for the insight!
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 06:11:48 AM by DaveW »
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Lukard

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2014, 09:05:39 AM »
Let me present my opinions:

OK, I just found the Targeting topic on page 15, which says that you have to have LOS to make any attack... but does this make sense with regard to the Gate's attack in Rolling Fog? It seems that the heat would get to the creature even if it can't "see" it due to fog alone... no? I can understand how a corporeal wall might block the heat... but not an incorporeal one.

I agree with this description if it was a zone attack, because you would be targeting the zone; and therefore; reaching everything in that zone. Nevertheless; that is not a zone attack; so, Gate to Hell must target each creature and you need to consider the Obscured trait.


2) Also, while opening the Gate to Hell is a Creature action, the Source of the attack is the Gate itself, correct? The rules codex on page 4 (Attack Source) may need to be updated to include this card, in addition to Chain Lightning and Reverse Attack. The only reason to suspect that the Source might be the Mage instead seems to be that the Mage must use his action and his mana to initiate the attack.

Thematically speaking, I would imagine that "Opening the Gate" is a tough task, it demands concentration (full action) and magical effort (12 mana) to do so. Once open, Gate to Hell will perform its attacks and Gate to Hell is the source of the attacks.
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Kharhaz

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2014, 09:14:08 AM »
2) Also, while opening the Gate to Hell is a Creature action, the Source of the attack is the Gate itself, correct? The rules codex on page 4 (Attack Source) may need to be updated to include this card, in addition to Chain Lightning and Reverse Attack. The only reason to suspect that the Source might be the Mage instead seems to be that the Mage must use his action and his mana to initiate the attack.

Correct. If the Source was the mage than the attack would base LoS and range from the Warlock and not the Gate.

Incorporeal walls (fog bank / wall of fire) that block line of sight have always prevented the gate from having LoS. The obscure traits bit about " cannot be target from more than one zone away (this is for all purposes...)"
does minimize the range from the gate.

Kharhaz

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2014, 09:20:58 AM »
Let me present my opinions:

OK, I just found the Targeting topic on page 15, which says that you have to have LOS to make any attack... but does this make sense with regard to the Gate's attack in Rolling Fog? It seems that the heat would get to the creature even if it can't "see" it due to fog alone... no? I can understand how a corporeal wall might block the heat... but not an incorporeal one.

I agree with this description if it was a zone attack, because you would be targeting the zone; and therefore; reaching everything in that zone. Nevertheless; that is not a zone attack; so, Gate to Hell must target each creature and you need to consider the Obscured trait.


Rolling Fog gives all zones and objects obscure so the gate still would not be able to target the zones at range 2. And the incorporeal walls would still stop the zone attack. Just like with Akiro's Hammer and the inability to target a zone with it's zone attack that is behind a rolling fog.

Wildhorn

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2014, 12:20:43 PM »
Gate to Hell does NOT require LoS to attack. Why you ask? Because it doesnt have ranged attack icon, so it is not ranged attack and only ranged attack require a LoS. It just happens on the target, like walls attack, but instead to be done on target that pass throu it like a wall, it happens on every creature that is within 2 zone of the gate.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 12:26:00 PM by Wildhorn »

DaveW

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2014, 02:35:53 PM »
Thanks everyone for your thoughtful replies.

Can someone point me to a reference in the rules that talks about when Targeting is needed, or that only Ranged attacks need LOS? I agree that it makes sense (which is why I also mentioned that the attack is neither a melee nor a ranged attack), but the Targeting topic makes me think that all attacks must have LOS. From p. 15:

"Targeting
In order to successfully target an object, 3 conditions must be met.
1) You must be able to “see” the object – trace LoS (Line of Sight) to the object.
..."

I guess the way to look at this is to say that the specific wording on the card overrides the more generalized rules in the rule book. Thus, there is no possibility of being able to hide behind walls, etc. to avoid the attack. If the creature is in range, it is hit by the attack.

Oh, and to get this attack off, it requires two Mage actions... one to cast the original spell, and a second one to open the gate... plus a total of 24 mana... 12 + 12. Therefore, it should be a powerful attack (though you also get a fairly sturdy conjuration that gives Demons +1 dice and an alternate entry location for them).

Thanks again!
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 02:40:33 PM by DaveW »
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Wildhorn

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2014, 03:47:24 PM »
Hmmm... after more reading, I retract what I said. Gate to Hell require LoS. Just because of this part in STEP 1. DECLARE ATTACK:

Quote
Then, announce what target you are attacking. You must
choose a legal target for your attack
.

DaveW

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2014, 06:34:03 PM »
Hmmm... after more reading, I retract what I said. Gate to Hell require LoS. Just because of this part in STEP 1. DECLARE ATTACK:

Quote
Then, announce what target you are attacking. You must
choose a legal target for your attack
.

But... isn't that from the melee attack section? This attack is neither melee nor ranged....
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Wildhorn

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2014, 09:13:19 PM »
Hmmm... after more reading, I retract what I said. Gate to Hell require LoS. Just because of this part in STEP 1. DECLARE ATTACK:

Quote
Then, announce what target you are attacking. You must
choose a legal target for your attack
.

But... isn't that from the melee attack section? This attack is neither melee nor ranged....

No it is from Combat Section.

Mrmt

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2014, 12:55:48 PM »
Thematically I feel it makes most sense that all non flying creatures within 2 zones get attacked. I think of it as a huge area of effect fireball, comprising 13 zones, in which any ground-based creature feels the flame.

But where does Mage Wars stand on the 'golden rule' - that if there is a potential clash between the card and the rule book, the card wins?

In general, I tend to favour the thematically compelling interpretation, rather than the rules lawyer interpretation... but I don't play in tournaments. (There aren't any where I live anyway).
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 01:22:24 PM by Mrmt »

DaveW

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2014, 09:08:20 PM »
Hmmm... after more reading, I retract what I said. Gate to Hell require LoS. Just because of this part in STEP 1. DECLARE ATTACK:

Quote
Then, announce what target you are attacking. You must
choose a legal target for your attack
.

Now I guess I just need to know why each non-flying creature within two zones would not be considered a legal target... it isn't a ranged attack, after all.

The "target" for the attack is all non-flying creatures within two zones. What makes a target illegal? No LOS? Why would lack of LOS make a creature an illegal target for this special attack?
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ringkichard

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2014, 10:32:27 PM »
Because "Target" has a specific rules meaning, that includes a LoS requirement.

Quote from: Line of Sight
Line of Sight
In order to cast a spell or make a ranged attack
against a target, you must have a clear “line of sight”
(called “LoS” for short). Normally, a creature has
LoS to the entire game board, even into zones that
are out of range. But, some walls block LoS. You
cannot cast a spell or make a ranged attack through
a wall that blocks LoS.
When you count range to your target, you must
also check if you have clear line of sight (LoS).
Draw an imaginary straight line from the center of
the attacker’s or caster’s zone to the center of the
target’s zone. LoS is blocked if the line crosses
through a zone border that has a wall on it with the
blocks LoS trait. Walls do not normally block LoS if
the line crosses diagonally through the corner of
a wall border, as long as at least one side of that
corner does not block LoS. When drawing LoS to a
wall, draw it to the center of the zone border.
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Zuberi

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2014, 12:07:46 AM »
My thinking on the matter:
1) attacks and spells both need to target something.
2) targeting requires line of sight.
3) there is nothing on gate to hell that implies it would break these rules.

I kind of agree with those who think it works like a big multi zone explosion attack, but there currently is nothing in the rules or on the card that would suggest such an attack would not need line of sight. I can think of arguments for and against why we would want it to ignore line of sight, but the lack of a ranged attack symbol does not indicate it does, nor does anything else indicate such. Therefore it requires line of sight currently.

DaveW

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2014, 06:05:32 AM »
Because "Target" has a specific rules meaning, that includes a LoS requirement.

Quote from: Line of Sight
Line of Sight
In order to cast a spell or make a ranged attack
against a target, you must have a clear “line of sight”....

In this case we are neither casting a spell nor making a ranged attack. This requires a full action, but not the casting of a spell (at the moment the gate is opened). Also, the attack is neither melee nor ranged.

I would think that the lack of the ranged symbol is precisely what allows the attack to not require LoS.

I feel odd having the contrary opinion to folks who know the game much better than I do, but I truly can only see this interpreted this way.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 06:11:21 AM by DaveW »
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Kharhaz

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2014, 08:32:10 AM »
Lets walk through the steps:

Warlock flips his action marker and spends 900 mana to open the gate. The Gate will then follow all 8 steps of making an attack (as per the rules, see the sidebar MAKING AN ATTACK, "When you attack, you must follow these steps in order")

Step 1. Declare Attack
(This is where this entire issue is rooted) As stated in the rules, during this step an attack is either melee or ranged (no exceptions). Melee attacks require the target to be in the same zone. Ranged attacks can only be preformed if the target is within the maximum range and has a clear Line of Sight. 

From the step description we can clearly determine that the Gate is using a ranged attack, which would require it to have line of sight as per the rules in Step 1.