July 15, 2020, 12:29:42 PM

Author Topic: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell  (Read 6028 times)

DaveW

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2014, 05:43:40 PM »
Lets walk through the steps:

Warlock flips his action marker and spends 900 mana to open the gate. The Gate will then follow all 8 steps of making an attack (as per the rules, see the sidebar MAKING AN ATTACK, "When you attack, you must follow these steps in order")

Step 1. Declare Attack
(This is where this entire issue is rooted) As stated in the rules, during this step an attack is either melee or ranged (no exceptions). Melee attacks require the target to be in the same zone. Ranged attacks can only be preformed if the target is within the maximum range and has a clear Line of Sight. 

From the step description we can clearly determine that the Gate is using a ranged attack, which would require it to have line of sight as per the rules in Step 1.

From page 4 of the rules codex thing:

"Other Attacks
Attacks without a melee or ranged icon (e.g. Damage Barriers, wall attacks, the attack made by the spell
Explode) are neither melee nor ranged. "
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Kharhaz

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2014, 06:59:51 PM »
The chart in the updated codex still shows that special attacks have to go through step 1.

From Codex v 3.3

LoS (Line of Sight)
"You cannot target an object or zone if Line of Sight is blocked. Some walls have the Blocks LoS trait. See "Walls" on page 17."

Blocks LoS
"This wall blocks Line of Sight. You cannot target an object or a zone if the Line of Sight is blocked. See "LoS" on page 17."


Step 1. Declare Attack
"Then, announce what target you are attacking. You must choose a legal target for your attack"


Targeting
"In order to successfully target an object, 3 conditions must be met.
1) You must be able to "see" the object - trace LoS(Line of Sight) to the object.

2)If the spell, effect, or ability you are targeting with specifies a range, then the target must within the specified range. If a range is not specified, then ignore this requirement and assume any is permissible.

3) The target must be a "legal" target and match whatever requirements are specified for that spell, effect, or ability. For example, a spell might say "Flying Creatures" in the target line, and thus it cannot target a Nonflying creature.

Note that the first requirement (LoS) is mandatory for targeting, and the second 2 requirements may or may not be required by the particular spell, effect, or ability."

DaveW

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2014, 09:28:30 PM »
This would be easier if there were a distinction between "Line of Sight" and "Line of Effect" in this game.

How does the Gate actually "see" any creatures to target? It doesn't have eyes, and we've already established that the source of the attack is the Gate itself. The card simply says that it targets all non-flying Creatures within two zones of it.

The real question, I suppose, was asked before in this thread... does the text on the card override the (presumably more general) rules in the rule book?

It would be good if the Codex spoke about this card in relation to specifically what it can affect. Would Brian or someone please add that to a "to do" list?

I also would like to know how the judges at GenCon will rule on this so I can know whether I will want to play this card in certain situations.
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Zuberi

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2014, 01:50:11 AM »
Specific text on cards does indeed override general rules, but there is no text on gate to hell that says it ignores line of sight or does not need to target. You are correct that it is neither ranged nor melee nor even a zone attack. I fail to see why that matters though. It is still an attack. It still has to go through the steps. It still has to target. Targeting still requires line of sight.

Wildhorn

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2014, 06:29:10 AM »
Like we keep saying. It is an attack. And attacks require LoS no matter the type. End of case.

Mrmt

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2014, 08:19:56 AM »
Like we keep saying. It is an attack. And attacks require LoS no matter the type. End of case.

Indeed, but not thematic.

It makes some sense thematically that someone can duck behind a wall to avoid this attack, but less sense that a flame which fills an entire region somehow doesn't affect someone in fog, because it can't 'see' that person.

So fine, we have the legal interpretation. A massive belch of flame which engulfs a dozen zones misses someone in fog because it can't see them. Not sure it's a very compelling scenario, but there we are. It would have made more sense if this was designated as an area of effect attack which fills all these zones.

That said, all this is pretty much irrelevant as it's such an expensive clunky card that I can't see people using it in a competitive scenario anyway. They might in more of a casual fun environment, in which case people can apply any house rule that floats their boat.


Shad0w

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2014, 01:50:08 PM »
Announce which attack you are using
Then, announce what target you are attacking. You must choose a legal target for your attack:


Even thought the gate is not melee or ranged attack it still requires a target as per attack rules. Thus if you read the rules below
LoS (Line of Sight)
You cannot target an object or zone if Line of Sight is blocked.

If LoS is blocked then the gate can not hit it.


Also Gate is the source of the attack.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 01:54:44 PM by Shad0w »
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netzhuffle

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2014, 05:17:03 PM »
Thanks!

It would be great if it could be corrected in the rulebook in the Line of Sight box that only ranged attacks need LoS and in the first attack step that only ranged is listed explicitly for LoS. And it would be great to see this in the Rules Supplement :)

Would that be possible?
netzhuffle Jannis Grimm, German Mage Wars Head Judge. headjudge@magewars.de

Shad0w

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2014, 09:10:16 PM »
Thanks!

It would be great if it could be corrected in the rulebook in the Line of Sight box that only ranged attacks need LoS and in the first attack step that only ranged is listed explicitly for LoS. And it would be great to see this in the Rules Supplement :)

Would that be possible?

Not till the next rules update prob in the next few months.
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isel

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2014, 04:19:04 AM »
i had this problem yesterday, my question its if  walls between zones are attacked by Gate of hell, i ask because i know that zone spell not target walls, but im not sure about G. o H.

Zuberi

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Re: Attack upon opening Gate to Hell
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2014, 07:58:28 AM »
Gate to Hell specifically says that it targets creatures. Conjurations, including walls, are not attacked.