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Author Topic: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)  (Read 27220 times)

jacksmack

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2014, 07:15:03 PM »
Then the Wizard picks two creatures, probably Gorgon and Golem/Jelly. Since the Beastmaster has to take his creature activation first, the Wizard gets to see what's coming, and react accordingly. In this case, it'd be Gorgon if he plays Lair, Battle Forge, or Pet Falcon, and Jelly for Steelclaw, Pet Dire, Cervere or Double Move.

The wizard will not see if the BM runs few bigs or Lair when its his turn to act.

BM runs to NC and wait with his QC till quickcast phase. It will be a lair or a ring/flower or even a forge.
But you wont get to cast a creature by then.

Biblofilter

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2014, 09:11:45 PM »
Well a more simple plan for a Wizard vs a Beastmaster is to cast a Mana Crystal (or another zone exclusive conjuration) in the NC. That is if the Wizard wins the initiative.

Now a swarm beastmaster strategy is going to be a lot slower.
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BoomFrog

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #62 on: August 28, 2014, 09:35:23 AM »
That is probably a good move for any player against a Beastmaster, although you're only disrupting half of the birds, you're still getting hit by a QC pet on round 3.

ringkichard

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #63 on: August 28, 2014, 01:02:26 PM »
The wizard will not see if the BM runs few bigs or Lair when its his turn to act.

BM runs to NC and wait with his QC till quickcast phase. It will be a lair or a ring/flower or even a forge.
But you wont get to cast a creature by then.

My personal list of possible threats I'd be reacting to in that circumstance is
  • 2nd turn Pet Steelclaw and Cheetah Speed
  • Lair
  • Battle Forge
  • Double Move + Ring into 2nd turn Wolf Pack (Redclaw and one or more Dire Wolves on later turns

I think we can pretty safely disregard double move + Mana Crystal from Beastmaster. If BM wants to try to build his economy, that just means Wizard plays turn 2 Tower or Forge 0and turn 3 Gate.
 
Against a 2nd turn Steelclaw, Opening with Jelly (or Golem) is probably the right play. If you start with Gorgon, you're probably locked into Gargoyle Sentry on 2nd turn to try to catch up on ground defense, but if you've got Eagle Wings for the Gorgon you're in good shape after that once you get Wizard's Tower up.

Against nearly all kinds of Lair openings, Gorgon is probably the right play, I think. Weak is good against medium threats, and the damage is good against small ones.

Against Battle Forge I'd suspect that Gorgon is correct, but I can't prove it. You may actually want 1st turn Gate to Voltari instead, here. But if you're playing Watergate or something similar, you're probably not too worried about the Beastmaster trying to solo you. You've got enough Dissolves that you can keep the threat minimal.

So, yes, some kind of scouting of the enemy spellbook is going to be important. In a tournament, that means control gets better as the day goes on and book play-styles are revealed. In casual play or league it just means learning your opponent's spellbooks and habits over time.

Then again, I may have a excessive regard for Gorgon in the current meta. She's no good against Necro, for example, and iffy against Warlock now. But against Beastmaster, I think she's still a tremendous play.
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V10lentray

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #64 on: August 31, 2014, 04:35:08 PM »


In practice, the hate I was thinking of was something like

1. (20) Gorgon Archer (4)
2. (14) Suppression orb (6) Hawkeye (3)
3. (13) Mordok's Obelisk (5) Arcane Zap (4)
4. (13) Chain Lightning (1) Arcane Zap (0)


Being there is only one archer in the Core set you would really need to won a lot of cor sets or borrow all of those. Plus, unless you are playing the wizard, Gorgon archer is too expensive to be in any other book (8 points minimum) and you can only have 4 copies of the archer Max in any book.

I've tried to put an archer in many books, she's just too expensive, it's almost not fair.
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sdougla2

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #65 on: August 31, 2014, 04:57:39 PM »
That opening was clearly tailored for the Wizard. No one else has Arcane Zap, and it's much more expensive for anyone else to take Gorgon Archer and Chain Lightning. There are other options for other mages, though the Wizard has a particularly strong set of options against swarm.
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ringkichard

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #66 on: August 31, 2014, 08:39:03 PM »
I have always loved Gorgon Archer in Beast Master, but yes, it's spendy.
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Shad0w

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #67 on: September 01, 2014, 05:34:29 PM »
I was questioning the 2 turns you held back in the one top 4 match.
After looking over the game state I can see it was a good line. I just do not know why you moved the 1 falcon in early. 8)

Was it an attempt at baiting the other player?
 
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Alexander West

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #68 on: September 01, 2014, 05:44:37 PM »
@Schwenkgott:
I think a priestress with a temple of asyra, some knights for guard action, valshalla and some clerics would bring you in a world of pain.

For a little while I abandoned the Beastmaster because I had a few bad games against Priestess.  She has one of the better economies (Temple + Cleric), and some very good creatures, including flyers, archers, and guards that can one shot an unbuffed bird.  I've also found a heal at just the right time can be very frustrating in throwing off combat math (much like Etherian Lifetree messes with it).

I think Valshalla might be overkill/too expensive/Banish bait, but I agree the rest of it may be very well positioned.

A Warlord with a fast Crimson with akiros favor could have the same effect: A dead falcon every round.
Sorry, I looked at the Spell Database, and I can't figure it out.  What is Crimson?

@RingKichard:
I'm a bit amused that your PlanA/PlanB called for Ooze vs. double move.  Aviary was always double move, with Lair only revealed on final quickcast.  Obviously, this might not have been what you meant, or could be adapted to with a game of testing, but funny all the same.  ;)  (Good catch jacksmack!)

@Biblofilter & Boomfrog:
Yeah, building a Mana Crystal or Battle Forge at NC/B2 to block the Lair is interesting.  The down side is that it's going to take a bunch of "free" hits from birds as they go from the Lair location to B2 to get in position to attack NG/A1.  However, I think it's generating mana (and tempo in the case of the forge), as well as life, and could be worth it.  Clever tactic, whether it turns out to be good enough or not.

I wonder if it's better to put the Lair at FC/B3 or A3 after that?  (Assuming Beastmaster stats at C4 here.)  I guess probably A3 since A1 is still within 2 moves, and everywhere is within 4 moves.

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Alexander West

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #69 on: September 01, 2014, 05:49:29 PM »
@Shad0w
I was questioning the 2 turns you held back in the one top 4 match.
After looking over the game state I can see it was a good line. I just do not know why you moved the 1 falcon in early. 8)

Was it an attempt at baiting the other player?


Could you be more specific about which match it was, what turn it was, or any more context?
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sIKE

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #70 on: September 01, 2014, 06:19:44 PM »
Quote
What is Crimson?
He's deutsch but he means Grimson Deadeye, Sniper.
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BoomFrog

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2014, 09:52:27 AM »
@Biblofilter & Boomfrog:
Yeah, building a Mana Crystal or Battle Forge at NC/B2 to block the Lair is interesting.  The down side is that it's going to take a bunch of "free" hits from birds as they go from the Lair location to B2 to get in position to attack NG/A1.  However, I think it's generating mana (and tempo in the case of the forge), as well as life, and could be worth it.  Clever tactic, whether it turns out to be good enough or not.

I wonder if it's better to put the Lair at FC/B3 or A3 after that?  (Assuming Beastmaster stats at C4 here.)  I guess probably A3 since A1 is still within 2 moves, and everywhere is within 4 moves.
If the defender places a zone exclusive conjuration in B2 then that means they moved, probably to B1.  So you place the lair in B3 so their escape routes are symmetrical.  This only works for the defender if they have initiative round 2 and use that to move away.  Of course now you've committed to moving round 1 and 2 so you can't summon any creatures which is probably going to turn out poorly for the defender.  I think this tactic can only work with summoning a spawnpoint in B2, maybe druid placing vinetree or wizard placing a gate in NC?

Biblofilter

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2014, 07:47:14 AM »
With a wizard vs a Beastmaster "the lairblocking play" (putting a cheap configuration in your NC) seems like a good counterstrategy with the goal of keeping the lair three moves away, thereby somewhat counteriing the fast falcons, summoned from the lair in Alexanders deck. That should make the swarm somewhat slower.


Lets say the Wizard moves to B1 and cast a Mana Crystal in B2 and follow up with a Battle Forge in B1. (18+1 mana for round 2)
In turn 2 the Wizard could move 1 out of direct range from the lair, cast 1 equipment, 1 enchanment and a Wizard Tower. If the Beastmaster summon something flying, bind a Jet Stream, which is a serious treat to small flyers.
The Wizard could force push himself out of range and then summon with the full action but the Wizard Tower seems like a better choise.
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Shad0w

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2014, 09:37:33 AM »
@Shad0w
I was questioning the 2 turns you held back in the one top 4 match.
After looking over the game state I can see it was a good line. I just do not know why you moved the 1 falcon in early. 8)

Was it an attempt at baiting the other player?


Could you be more specific about which match it was, what turn it was, or any more context?

I can not remember clearly the exact match. The top 8 all blended together. In fact as I type this it may have been when you play your brother. I do think I know why it was to stay out of AOE range so the least advantage could be gained. When you moved the one falcon in I think it was to bait a CL or something.
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BoomFrog

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Re: The Straywood Aviary (GenCon 2014 Championship Spellbook)
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2014, 11:15:25 AM »
Well it wasn't in his match against me since he knew for a fact that I didn't have any AoE spells in my Forcemaster book.  :)  Probably in his second top 8 match against the air wizard?